T1s, T2s, T9s and Skippables

[Grimz]

As a player still relatively new to CoH and wanting to learn how to make builds, I have a few questions I'd like to ask:

 

1: How do you decide whether a T1 or a T2 is the stronger level 1 choice for your Primary

2: How do you approach T1s and T2s for Secondaries (Mainly Tankers and Defenders)

3: Do you always want to get your T9 powers?

4: How do you determine if a power is skippable for your current AT/Power Set combo?

[Luminara]

6 minutes ago, Grimz said:

1: How do you decide whether a T1 or a T2 is the stronger level 1 choice for your Primary

 

By examining the way it interacts with other powers and determining whether the cost is worth the investment.  Sometimes one or the other is perfect.  Sometimes one has better stats, but doesn't bring anything particularly useful.  Sometimes neither is worthwhile.  It's not what any one power does in, of and by itself, but what it does in conjunction with other powers.

 

8 minutes ago, Grimz said:

2: How do you approach T1s and T2s for Secondaries (Mainly Tankers and Defenders)

 

If the T1 is "bad", I flip the primary/secondary and look at it from the other archetype.

 

Trick Arrows is, obviously, going to be my example.  I've never been a fan of Entangling Arrow.  I'm still not a fan of it, even with the shiny new 20% -Res added in I27.  It's just not a compelling power for me.  So I typically skip it if I can.  It's one of the reasons I rarely play corruptors - I love TA, but I don't love everything in TA, and I don't want to be forced to waste a power selection on something I won't use.

 

11 minutes ago, Grimz said:

3: Do you always want to get your T9 powers?

 

I'm probably not representative of the majority, but I just don't like powers which are designed only to be used in extreme emergencies or once in a blue moon.  That's what most T9 powers have been, historically, and I've rarely bothered with them.  Some T9s, I will take.  EMP Arrow.  Rain of Arrows.  Some, I never take and never regret skipping, like scrapper and brute T9s.  I can always find another way to do what I want to do.

 

22 minutes ago, Grimz said:

4: How do you determine if a power is skippable for your current AT/Power Set combo?

 

Does it do something contrary to what I intend to do with this character?  Knocking foes out of patches, for example, or DoTs which break Sleeps when Sleeps are my primary form of damage mitigation.

 

Does it do something that another power does, but not as well?  Then it's probably not worth using.

 

Does it fit into the attack chain?  If it's an attack that doesn't actually serve a purpose, or throws off the flow of the chain, it might be better left unselected.

 

Do I have to build in a special way to make this power viable?  Sometimes a power looks really good, until you realize you have to redesign your entire character to make it work, or slot your powers in ways you'd rather not.

 

Is it necessary?  Often, we consider something appealing in the planner, but when we finalize our character at 50 and start looking at it again, we realize it serves no purpose, or offers nothing compelling.

 

But, really, only you can decide if any power is worth it or not.  Sometimes, the animation alone makes a power worth having.  Sometimes, powers are worthwhile as IO set mules.  Sometimes, we just like to have a power "just in case".  Sometimes, we take a power we don't need and never intend to use, because we're fond of it.  Pick what you like.  Respec later if you want or need to.  The worst that can happen is that you learn a little more about the game, what you like, what you need and what you can do.

[Max Firepower]

Great reply, Luminara.

 

instead of getting stuck in the weeds of data, as I do at times, your reply is more cogent.

 

Does it work the way I expect, does it help me do what I want, is it a good / fun / reasonable choice for how I play.

 

 

[Doomguide2005]

1.  I approach it a couple ways.  First I'll probably just take and try both and see how it works for me.  Second I'll look at threads in the forums and see where the consensus seems to lie and ideally why.  And again compare that for my playstyle and what I tend to prioritize.  

2.  Pretty much the same as my answer above.   These days I also worry about it less in general than many issues ago.  Multiple builds plus ease of obtaining respecs means I can afford to 'feel things out' and experiment more readily.

3.  No not always.  I'll pretty much never take Elude on an SR character these days, for example.  It really offers nothing for my build.  But again my 2nd and/or 3rd builds I might deliberately try something odd or 'not normal' like seeing if I can make Elude work in a build specifically meant to tackle Rularuu (and their defense obliterating +100% To Hit buff) for example.  In general once I feel comfortable with a set you can throw away the words 'never' concerning pretty much any power.

4. See all the above 🙂  including Max and Luminara's replies. 

[Clave Dark 5]

Repsecs are easier to come by (if still a pain) so trying something out's not a bad idea; you can always dump it later.  I have to admit I listen to a fair amount of received wisdom from the forums to help me make my choice too, but you have to get a good number of opinions to make a decent call so that one lone person telling you to six slot Rest or something won't lead you astray.

[Li_Sensei]

9 hours ago, Grimz said:

As a player still relatively new to CoH and wanting to learn how to make builds, I have a few questions I'd like to ask:

 

1: How do you decide whether a T1 or a T2 is the stronger level 1 choice for your Primary

2: How do you approach T1s and T2s for Secondaries (Mainly Tankers and Defenders)

3: Do you always want to get your T9 powers?

4: How do you determine if a power is skippable for your current AT/Power Set combo?

It really doen't matter IMO about which of T1 or T2 is stronger.  You'll be level 2/4 in next to no time, so if you want them both, then it won't take long to get there.

 

I approach secondaries the same as I approach all power picks.  I go to the trainer, look at the level up screen and think 'OK, so what looks shiniest?"

 

T9's are always taken from an attack set.  There's no reason not to.  Support sets it depends.  My MA/Shield scrapper didn't take OWTS, due to build constraints.  I couldn't fit MA, travel, fighting, Body Mastery AND OWTS.

 

Skippable is a nebulous, personal decision.  On Li, my Katan/Regen, I did NOT take Gamblers cut because I *HATE* the animation.  It may well be the best DPA ST attack.  I don't care.  The "I slice your face, nyah!" animation has rubbed me the wrong way since Issue 3.  In fact, thinking about it, it's rubbed me the wrong way since EU Beta, because that was the only time I took it.  So far as I recall, I've never used it on live, or HC.  Other powers you may regard as skippable because they don't do anything you want, they cost more endurance than you're willing to spend, or they just don't fit the character concept.

 

As you may be able to tell from my responses, I'm not the sort of person who has a build all planned out before playing the toon.  I personally find that my idiot brain doesn't understand the way the powers work from raw numbers, I have to put in the time getting a handle on things.

[Heraclea]

My rule of thumb on a blaster is to take and slot both the t1 and the t2 in the primary, and the t1 in the secondary (which may not get slots).  Because these powers can still be used while mezzed, one or the other of them is an ideal place for the mez protect proc from the one blaster ATO.  And since you will want to six slot your ATO power.

 

I never take armor set T9s that have drastic crashes when they wear off, or which are self rezzes that are useful only when already dead.  

[gourdhead]

This isn't direct build advice, but-respec. respec, respec.  Yes, that is 3 planned respecs over the life of the character.  First in low 20's, then when you unlock your primary T9, and finally when you turn 50 and/or unlock and slot your Alpha.  These are less about gaining and losing powers and more about moving enhancement slots "up" in your build, but its also an opportunity to look at your power bar, and see what's performing well and what's underwhelming.

[Snarky]

I play a LOT of Brutes.  I never take a t1.  I used to play Invulnerability non stop (still looking at a ice/Invul Sentinel build from Hyperstrike-might happen) T9 is traditionally not taken on Invulnerability.  Hyperstrike calls it delayed suicide or something.  However, I followed another great builder from games past (forget name) but he ran a Dark/Invul Brute that he swore was the bomb.  I diligently chased after the parts and got one.  It was the Bomb.  Super high recharge.  THe build was insanely powerful.  And had the T9.  And it worked.  Because the recharges were so high you could cycle through your buffs fast after the crash and be back to full in 2 powers.  I was in a Reichsman TF I remember back on live.  Pre incarnate days.  The team wiped.  I tanked Reichsman and the endless spawns.  The team all traipsed back from the hospital.  I was still in there having cycled through 2-3 T9 crashes.  It was epic.  Having made you read all that....do not take T9 on Invulnerable.  It was a ghetto incarnate power a builder made work using one strange mechanic.  It is a delayed suicide button.

[Hew]

I dont like t9s that come with some sort of crash, and generally never take them as a result. Those without are much more likely to be taken.

[tidge]

11 hours ago, Grimz said:

As a player still relatively new to CoH and wanting to learn how to make builds, I have a few questions I'd like to ask:

 

1: How do you decide whether a T1 or a T2 is the stronger level 1 choice for your Primary

2: How do you approach T1s and T2s for Secondaries (Mainly Tankers and Defenders)

3: Do you always want to get your T9 powers?

4: How do you determine if a power is skippable for your current AT/Power Set combo?

(1) T1 v T2: My experience has been that for certain AT, I never take both. For example: MM attacks are terribly weak, whereas the Henchmen are the bread & butter. I find single-target immobilizes to be nearly useless, so those get skipped (in primaries). DPS AT don't need two low-level attacks (unless you lurv some combos power sets) so one gets skipped (usually the 'fast' one). For defensive primaries, I almost always take as many powers as possible to serve as IO mules.

 

(2) Secondary T1s & T2s: Obviously you get 'stuck' with the T1 secondary. For Tanks and Defenders, this will be an attack, so you may as well slot it and use it. Some other AT get saddled with nigh-useless T1 in the secondary. (Ehem, /Traps Masterminds). You accept the punishment and don't bother investing slots in it, as you will always have a better power to invest those slots in.

 

(3) T9s: Defensive T9s are often skipped because whatever benefits that they provide can usually be mimicked by an Inspiration... and Inspirations have no downside beyond keeping them in your inventory. Offensive T9 are almost always taken as they will be 'nukes'. There are a few exceptions on both sides... for example the /Traps T9 is a very limited 'nuke' (all ATs).

 

(4) How I determine power to skip (or minimally slot):

• If the power cannot mule a Global IO piece, or cannot hold a useful set bonus it gets skipped. I personally dislike immobilizes, but on at least one build I took and slotted a Patron pool power just to get a set bonus, and on Dominators/Controllers the AoE immobilize (or equivalent) is an important part of the attack/control chain and so gets treated as a valuable power (slots, IO choices).
• If the low-level power requires slotting (e.g. accuracy, %procs) to become useful - see those T1 immobilizes. Single target, requires a ToHit check, can stop melee but not ranged or AoE attacks... hardly worth slotting (or having) such powers. Single target Debuffs are another story!
• If it is a power that exclusively works on teammates... and I'm going to mostly solo with the character... I will generally look twice before picking such powers. An example of an ally power that I don't have slotted is the (secondary) /Poison Alkaloid. A ST-heal is hard to use reliably, so I have only the single-slot with a Miracle +Recovery in it slotted so I can use it to benefit myself as well. See also /Kinetics powers that can mule Universal Travel IO pieces.
• If it is a long-recharge power in a build where my build won't have sufficient Global +Recharge to have it available 'often enough'. I almost never take Patron pets from the Epic pools for this reason. On certain high-Recharge Defense-based DPS builds I am a huge fan of Unrelenting (Presence pool), but this is a power that becomes much more useful if you can have it used as much as possible.
• Never skip the defining powers for the AT. This includes the passive resistances/defenses for such ATs, the pets for MMs, etc.

[Eldyem]

I assume you're talking more about Melee/Blast T1s than other ones, because that's where the choice is less "Does this offer utility I need?" and more "Which one of this is the objectively better attack?" And in those situations, I just check, but I usually wait for a level 20-something respec to do so because I don't want my opinion of any given set tainted (though I will say Psychic Blast managed to taint my opinion of it all on its own).

 

In all fairness, most T1s and T2s don't have a big difference, and I personally find I usually want both anyways. For those that don't fit that mold - most notably a good handful of Melee sets, especially on Tankers for some reason - I just don't ever use the "bad" power once I no longer need it. You usually have enough room in any given build, even relatively min/maxed ones, to fit a couple powers you don't intend to slot, and while it'd be nice to fit a global bonus like a Luck of the Gambler in there, I don't really feel like I'm missing that much by losing a power choice to Jab or Mental Blast or Entangling Arrow.

As for T9s, it really depends, but I do feel like a large portion of T9s, except for Armor T9s, are good nowadays. Mastermind's Pet T9s aren't skippable, Control T9s offer pets for every set except Mind Control, and those T9s do a large portion of your damage and I would very very strongly recommend against skipping them. Melee T9s, along with Dominator Assault T9s, are just generic attacks and may or may not be skippable based on the set, though the majority of them are usually pretty good powers. Blast T9s are incredibly strong nukes and I would personally recommend taking them. Blaster Manipulation T9s are all over the place and need to be taken on a set-by-set basis. Support T9s are usually cornerstones of the set, but some of them questionable, redundant, or just kind of weird and bad (Time Bomb in Traps is all three!).

I think trial and error is the main way to really know if a power is skippable; while there are some powers that look bad on paper and turn out to be bad in practice, you have enough power choices that you can often experiment, and, in all honesty, the game just isn't all that hard after a certain point so no one will ever be upset that you took Shiver or Clarity or most other powers that really aren't all that great - with the main exception being Intangibles, which might upset a few people because they do actively get in the way of other people's enjoyment of the game if they're used improperly while being sort of inconsequential when used properly.

[Haijinx]

I usually take everything,  or almost everything, in Primary and Secondary.  

 

Generally though if its something like a crash T9 I just use it as a mule as far as slotting goes.  

 

Mainly since I never take travel powers, or almost never leadership powers, I never seem to have all the power pick problems that seem so rampant in COX evidently.  

[Uun]

If your primary is an attack set, the T2 is always the stronger attack. I will skip the T1 on scrappers, brutes and corruptors but take it on blasters as it can be used while mezzed. On sets where the secondary is the attack set (defenders and tanks), you're stuck with the T1 and unless the T2 is really good I will skip that.

 

On control sets you're never going to skip the ST hold (always the T2). Usually the T1 is a ST immobilize. I may be in the minority, but I always take these and usually slot them. For controllers they set up containment and are usually one of the few ST damage powers. Even on dominators, all of these have -fly and the immobilize is mag 4, which will root a boss or AV.

 

On buff/debuff sets it's a bit of mish-mash. Sometimes you want both, sometimes you want neither (I'm looking at you Storm). If you take a set as a corruptor you're stuck with the secondary T1, but you can skip the T1 blast. If you take the set as a defender, the reverse is true.

 

I always take the T9 on attack and control sets. I usually skip it on armor sets except for those that don't have severe crashes. I'm mixed on the buff/debuff sets. I skip EM Pulse, EMP Arrow and Time Bomb, 

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Uun said:

If your primary is an attack set, the T2 is always the stronger attack. I will skip the T1 on scrappers, brutes and corruptors but take it on blasters as it can be used while mezzed. On sets where the secondary is the attack set (defenders and tanks), you're stuck with the T1 and unless the T2 is really good I will skip that

 

Some of the sword sets are the other way around.   BS and KAT come to mind.  BS has a lot of long recharge attacks though, so may need both for a lot of builds.  

[tidge]

18 minutes ago, Uun said:

If your primary is an attack set, the T2 is always the stronger attack. I will skip the T1 on scrappers, brutes and corruptors but take it on blasters as it can be used while mezzed.

IIRC, the primary T2 on Blasters can also be used while mezzed.

 

Writing only for myself,  with a near-complete build I will typically only have the T2 on Blasters because:

• I don't need/want two low-damage ranged attacks as part of an attack chain
• My Blasters will usually build for +Recharge, so there becomes very little difference between T1/T2 attacks in terms of cast times
• Blasters usually have enough different choices (without doubling up on T1/T2) and not enough enhancement slots, that both powers would be needed.

There are of course many different ways to approach builds, and leveling builds should be viewed differently than final builds.

[Player2]

Everything is skippable except at level 1 and 2.  I have a level 32 Time/Psychic Defender, and I only have 2 primary powers and 1 secondary.  Everything else is tied up in pools.

 

 

I mostly solo stuff with this character since I wouldn't want people counting on me to do all the defendery stuff I should be able to do, or even be a second rate blaster.  But I do fine as long as I don't up the difficulty of my missions.

[Uun]

6 hours ago, Player2 said:

Everything is skippable except at level 1 and 2.  I have a level 32 Time/Psychic Defender, and I only have 2 primary powers and 1 secondary.  Everything else is tied up in pools.

 

I mostly solo stuff with this character since I wouldn't want people counting on me to do all the defendery stuff I should be able to do, or even be a second rate blaster.  But I do fine as long as I don't up the difficulty of my missions.

If you want to build an intentionally gimped character and solo it, that's your business. But that's not what the OP was asking.

[Six-Six]

Power picks depend on the toon's concept for me. Some toons pick all of their primaries and secondaries (except the crashing and/or self rez T8 and T9) and actually use them. Some only pick certain powers (I have a dom that only took 2 primaries and a blaster who only took 4) and try to find some way to compensate or complement them with other powers... Again primarily dictated by concept. Then there are some powers I wish I could take, but can't afford their end cost at the level which they are offered, so I wait until the toon is properly prepared.

[dopeninja]

I usually skip the T9 in armor sets. I will take them to mule a useful proc if I don't have space elsewhere and have a free power pick. Some builds are more forgiving than others. Also keep in mind that power x from your primary might not be useful with secondary y, but it would be if you used a different secondary.

 

Every combo is technically playable, it might not be efficient, but playable. Every power is useful, even if situational. You'll figure out what is and isn't useful to have in your build by playing. It will also depend on your play style (to me everything can tank, so you'll find me in the middle of the mobs). Note what is/isn't working and respec out of what you don't use or doesn't work like you had hoped. When you get into IO's/sets that can change something from being garbage to useful as well, even as a mule.

[Chris24601]

For me, I always take the faster recharging attack of the t1-2 first and will almost always get both just because you can use those as all but a complete attack chain to smash through just about anything on base difficulty regardless of how low you're exemped by a mission/TF.

 

I'm playing for stress relief, not a challenge, just being able to spam 2-3 attacks on mostly minions and LTs with virtually no risk is what I'm looking for after 10 hours at work.

[drbuzzard]

On 12/18/2020 at 7:40 PM, Grimz said:

As a player still relatively new to CoH and wanting to learn how to make builds, I have a few questions I'd like to ask:

 

1: How do you decide whether a T1 or a T2 is the stronger level 1 choice for your Primary

2: How do you approach T1s and T2s for Secondaries (Mainly Tankers and Defenders)

3: Do you always want to get your T9 powers?

4: How do you determine if a power is skippable for your current AT/Power Set combo?

 

1: This depends on what the primary does. It depends on if it is damage, control, debuff, or defenses  (I'm leaving out MMs, but I don't play them- but the pet should be the obvious choice). This also depends on if you're talking what you pick initially when you make the character, or what ends up present in a final build. Those are often different in my case. For attacks, I'll pick a fast recharge when I'm starting, but final build will have the better DPAS (unless it is really close, then it is the one which allows a smoother attack chain). I don't play control much, but I'd like opt for a hold or another harder mez over an immobilize, though in the final build immobilizes can be handy and I end up with them. Debuff sets are a mixed bag, but I'll want something which either makes it harder for the enemy to hurt you and your team or easier for your team to hurt it. Debuffing is rather complicated so an easy answer doesn't really work. Defenses- there's a decent chance you'll want all of the lower stuff, though I'd go with what fits the theme and stacks. IE -If you've got a defense primary set, grab more defenses.
 

2: Umm, not sure what you mean. You're stuck with the T1. I'll take the T2 if it is good. Often I'll end up with a unslotted T1 if it's lousy enough. For example, while War Mace is a great set, the T1 attack is crap, so I end up with it present (have no choice), but with no slots in it and it is not in my power tray. Same for defenders, where sometimes the T1 is crap. I'd say this is less of a concern in defenders because they aren't exactly major damage dealers, and you're probably better off chasing damage through procs.

 

3: T9s are a mixed bag. Defensive T9s I usually skip. I'm like Luminara, I prefer consistent performance rather than having 'OH SHIT!' buttons available. Offensive T9s are almost always good (can't think of a bad one offhand). Most debuff/support T9s are good (most, not all- Traps- I'm looking at you). Control T9s are usually the pets, and they are key to damage.

 

4: If a power doesn't add towards my goals I skip it. Goals vary by character of course. A power can contribute directly or if it can offer a place to put a useful IO set or proc bonus.

Edited December 21, 2020 by drbuzzard

[DoctorDitko]

Agreed.

I usually play controllers or defenders, so the obligatory secondary T1 is often something lame like a ST immobilize. Try to find some beneficial IO to put there, otherwise think of it as an excuse to devote slots elsewhere.

I'd double the Devs' pay for the option to select a T2 vs the forced T1 in secondary powersets.

 

[Snarky]

There is a great guide up on the Sentinel Board.  It has players analyze sentinel sets.  THe one for Ice (it is like on the 7th or 8th page of the thread lol) is extremely well done in talking about what can be skipped and why.  

 

I talk about this specific example to make a point.  Each Primary/Secondary within an Archetype will be completely different than it will on any other Archetype.  THe question you easily ask would take an in depth study on every single Archetype and possible power combination.  Yes, it really is that complicated.

 

That is the joy of City of Heroes.  From Costume to Archetype, to Powersets, to Incarnating, it is a build your own burrito that you will love.  Not necessarily what someone else will think is a great burrito. And even great chefs will differ on the exact best Brute SS/Invul.  Because there are multiple ways to build that "to be the best" depending on your playstyle goals.

[Player2]

On 12/20/2020 at 11:53 AM, Uun said:

If you want to build an intentionally gimped character and solo it, that's your business. But that's not what the OP was asking.

I did want and do just fine with it, and that was my answer to the OP's questions:  everything is skippable except for your 1st and 2nd level choices... it's all a matter of how you want to play.