Tanks versus Brutes.

[Snarky]

Is there a simple explanation (lets say at 50 to make the comparison easy, I know Brutes Fury at low levels is very helpful) of the damage comparison of a Tank and A Brute?  Brutes used to be definitely better.  Heck, for a while on live Brutes were out damaging Scrappers.  *shakes fist at nerf gods in the sky.

 

But after the "Great Tanker Un-Nerfing"  (tm) I am given to understand the damage is very similar.  Is this true. 

 

There are so many reasons I did not post this in either the Tanker or Brute forums. 

 

Thanks for the feedback.  Double Thanks for numbers!

[EdgeOfDreams]

Here's my rough understanding:

• Brutes have lower base damage than tankers.
• A Brute with enhancements + fury has higher damage than a Tanker with enhancements.
• Brutes have a higher damage modifier cap than Tankers. So, in a situation with lots of red inspirations or team buffs, Brute damage should be much higher than Tanker damage.
• Tankers have higher target caps on their multi-target attacks and larger cones. That means a Tanker can hit more targets than a Brute with the same multi-target attack.
• Tankers have higher base HP, higher max HP, and larger base numbers on their survival powers.
• Tankers have a slightly higher damage resistance cap than Brutes.
• Brutes have a built-in taunt on all their attacks that affects anything hit by the attack.
• Tankers have a built-in taunt on all their attacks that affects anything hit by the attack AND up to a handful of additional targets in a small area around the main target.

So, for general leveling and casual play, Brutes are better for damage and Tankers are better for tanking.

 

Where things get weird is when you start considering performance on endgame IO builds. Both Brutes and Tankers can be built defensively to the point where they almost never die. However, Tankers take less effort to get there, so they can shift some of their resources toward improving their damage output instead. Additionally, many players prefer better AoE performance over single-target performance, since this game throws so many enemies at you at once. Oh, and with IOs and team buffs, you don't really need someone to tank in a lot of content. So, which one is actually better on an endgame team is up for debate.

[Troo]

If very similar damage = within 8% then sure, this is sort of troo. (Tankers benefit from being able to hit more targets, not necessarily doing more damage than previous Tanks)

 

 

I totally made up 8%, it is not based on mathematics

 

[Infinitum]

32 minutes ago, EdgeOfDreams said:

Here's my rough understanding:

• Brutes have lower base damage than tankers.
• A Brute with enhancements + fury has higher damage than a Tanker with enhancements.
• Brutes have a higher damage modifier cap than Tankers. So, in a situation with lots of red inspirations or team buffs, Brute damage should be much higher than Tanker damage.
• Tankers have higher target caps on their multi-target attacks and larger cones. That means a Tanker can hit more targets than a Brute with the same multi-target attack.
• Tankers have higher base HP, higher max HP, and larger base numbers on their survival powers.
• Tankers have a slightly higher damage resistance cap than Brutes.
• Brutes have a built-in taunt on all their attacks that affects anything hit by the attack.
• Tankers have a built-in taunt on all their attacks that affects anything hit by the attack AND up to a handful of additional targets in a small area around the main target.

So, for general leveling and casual play, Brutes are better for damage and Tankers are better for tanking.

 

Where things get weird is when you start considering performance on endgame IO builds. Both Brutes and Tankers can be built defensively to the point where they almost never die. However, Tankers take less effort to get there, so they can shift some of their resources toward improving their damage output instead. Additionally, many players prefer better AoE performance over single-target performance, since this game throws so many enemies at you at once. Oh, and with IOs and team buffs, you don't really need someone to tank in a lot of content. So, which one is actually better on an endgame team is up for debate.

I have been looking the last day and a half at my brute and tanker builds that have the same attack/defense sets in them.  Basically on each one the Brute always has more dmg output from 50% fury up - usually i can hit and stay pretty close to 90% fury in most engagements which is where it blows the tanker dmg away.

 

Thats not saying the tanker dmg i have is bad either - but the brutes are just better when it comes to dmg by anywhere from 15-40% depending on which attack was being cast.

 

Now, having said that.

 

The tanker numbers for Def/Res/HP are always better also - by anywhere from 15-30% depending on which defense set we are looking at.

 

Now the long and the short of it is the Brutes i have never have any issue tanking any content - and the tankers i have never have any issue outputting decent damage - but they both play differently.

 

The brutes never slow down when attacking hard targets where the tankers stagnate slightly - but not bad enough to notice and lose sleep about it.

 

The tankers mop up minions a little faster than the brutes do but thats by design through the update.

 

At the end of the day they both come out even from how i slot and build mine - which i place emphasis on survivability first on my brutes and tankers.

 

A tactic i use on some of my brutes are to get both melee core and assault core so i can swap them out for particular mission content.  If i need a brute to be extra durable i will go with melee core - if i want to move faster i go assault core.

 

I use the same tactic on my tankers - even though melee core is massively overkill on them - sometimes having the extra regen is nice.

 

Even when the brute is in melee core and the tanker is in assault radial the brute is still outputting more dmg than the tanker.

 

From my perspective - which i know is not the only one - the tankers getting the boost they got - has not deterred me from running brutes - because they are a similar AT that plays a little more fast - and sometimes you want that rush, but at the same time any one of my 6 Brutes can tank any content - and has done so the past 2 years.

 

My mindset is and was even before the tanker update - when i wanted to tank content i brought a brute or tanker - when i want to output extreme damage i bring a scrapper or stalker.

[chi1701]

50 minutes ago, EdgeOfDreams said:

Here's my rough understanding:

• Brutes have lower base damage than tankers.
• A Brute with enhancements + fury has higher damage than a Tanker with enhancements.
• Brutes have a higher damage modifier cap than Tankers. So, in a situation with lots of red inspirations or team buffs, Brute damage should be much higher than Tanker damage.
• Tankers have higher target caps on their multi-target attacks and larger cones. That means a Tanker can hit more targets than a Brute with the same multi-target attack.
• Tankers have higher base HP, higher max HP, and larger base numbers on their survival powers.
• Tankers have a slightly higher damage resistance cap than Brutes.
• Brutes have a built-in taunt on all their attacks that affects anything hit by the attack.
• Tankers have a built-in taunt on all their attacks that affects anything hit by the attack AND up to a handful of additional targets in a small area around the main target.

So, for general leveling and casual play, Brutes are better for damage and Tankers are better for tanking.

 

Where things get weird is when you start considering performance on endgame IO builds. Both Brutes and Tankers can be built defensively to the point where they almost never die. However, Tankers take less effort to get there, so they can shift some of their resources toward improving their damage output instead. Additionally, many players prefer better AoE performance over single-target performance, since this game throws so many enemies at you at once. Oh, and with IOs and team buffs, you don't really need someone to tank in a lot of content. So, which one is actually better on an endgame team is up for debate.

Tankers have a slightly higher resistance cap than brutes? both have 90%

[Yomo Kimyata]

IMO, tanker ATOs are much more geared towards survival than brute ATOs, which to me means easier to hard or soft cap resistance or defense and use those extra slots or powers elsewhere.

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, EdgeOfDreams said:

Here's my rough understanding:

• Brutes have lower base damage than tankers.
• A Brute with enhancements + fury has higher damage than a Tanker with enhancements.
• Brutes have a higher damage modifier cap than Tankers. So, in a situation with lots of red inspirations or team buffs, Brute damage should be much higher than Tanker damage.
• Tankers have higher target caps on their multi-target attacks and larger cones. That means a Tanker can hit more targets than a Brute with the same multi-target attack.
• Tankers have higher base HP, higher max HP, and larger base numbers on their survival powers.
• Tankers have a slightly higher damage resistance cap than Brutes.
• Brutes have a built-in taunt on all their attacks that affects anything hit by the attack.
• Tankers have a built-in taunt on all their attacks that affects anything hit by the attack AND up to a handful of additional targets in a small area around the main target.

So, for general leveling and casual play, Brutes are better for damage and Tankers are better for tanking.

 

Where things get weird is when you start considering performance on endgame IO builds. Both Brutes and Tankers can be built defensively to the point where they almost never die. However, Tankers take less effort to get there, so they can shift some of their resources toward improving their damage output instead. Additionally, many players prefer better AoE performance over single-target performance, since this game throws so many enemies at you at once. Oh, and with IOs and team buffs, you don't really need someone to tank in a lot of content. So, which one is actually better on an endgame team is up for debate.

The highlighted part is not true; Brutes and Tankers have the same damage resistance cap of 90%; Kheldians, Arachnos Soldiers, and Arachnos Widows have a cap of 85%, and everyone else is capped at 75%.

 

Damage Comparison

The Brute +damage cap was reduced (to +600%, or 700% total) with the Tanker buff that increased theirs to +400% (500% total); the stated reason for this was to bring Tanker damage to approximately 80% of Brute damage when both were at caps, and lowering the Brute damage cap instead of a further increase of the Tanker cap was because the existing Brute cap allowed them to hit harder per attack scale than a Blaster (775% [old Brute cap] * 0.75 [AT modifier] = 5.8125; 500% [Blaster/Scrapper cap] * 1.125 [best modifier for each] = 5.625; 700% [new Brute cap] * 0.75 = 5.25).

 

Tankers can do more theoretical total damage with AoE attacks due to higher target caps and larger areas making them more likely to hit more targets, while the Brute will usually do more damage per target. Because of the difference in base damage there are situations when the Tanker will do more damage per target and have higher target caps and larger areas, but these are mostly limited to +damage sets (particularly Super Strength with stacked Rage) and low Brute Fury (<50%) but these are the exception.

 

Example

So let's look at a common scenario, Super Strength with stacked Rage (+160% damage) which would favor the Tanker in many ways due to their base damage scale being higher (0.95 vs 0.75), and give the Brute 50%, 75%, and 90% Fury. To simplify things, I'm just going to use 100% damage slotting.

 

Knockout Blow (scale 3.56 attack, single target):

Tanker: 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.95 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 3.56 (scale of attack) = 677.06 damage

Brute (50% Fury): 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.75 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1 [Fury] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 3.56 (scale of attack) = 683.00 damage

Brute (75% Fury): 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.75 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1.5 [Fury] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 3.56 (scale of attack) = 757.24 damage

Brute (90% Fury): 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.75 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1.8 [Fury] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 3.56 (scale of attack) = 801.78 damage

 

Foot Stomp (scale 1.42, saturated AoE):

Tanker: 55.61 * 0.95 * (1 + 1 + 1.6) * 1.42 = 270.06 damage per target, * 16 targets (max) = 4321.03 total damage to all targets

Brute (50% Fury): 55.61 * 0.75 * (1 + 1 + 1 + 1.6) * 1.42 = 272.43 damage per target, * 10 targets (max) = 2724.33 total damage to all targets

Brute (75% Fury): 55.61 * 0.75 * (1 + 1 + 1.5 + 1.6) * 1.42 = 302.05 damage per target, * 10 targets (max) = 3020.46 total damage to all targets

Brute (90% Fury): 55.61 * 0.75 * (1 + 1 + 1.8 + 1.6) * 1.42 = 319.81 damage per target, * 10 targets (max) = 3198.13 total damage to all targets

 

...and while I've been typing this out a bunch of other replies have come in, so I'll just wrap this wall of text up now.

Edited February 4, 2021 by siolfir
add some formatting, remove reasons from calculation summary for Foot Stomp

[Infinitum]

12 minutes ago, siolfir said:

The highlighted part is not true; Brutes and Tankers have the same damage resistance cap of 90%; Kheldians, Arachnos Soldiers, and Arachnos Widows have a cap of 85%, and everyone else is capped at 75%.

 

The Brute +damage cap was reduced (to +600%, or 700% total) with the Tanker buff that increased theirs to +400% (500% total); the stated reason for this was to bring Tanker damage to approximately 80% of Brute damage when both were at caps, and lowering the Brute damage cap instead of a further increase of the Tanker cap was because the existing Brute cap allowed them to hit harder per attack scale than a Blaster (775% [old Brute cap] * 0.75 [AT modifier] = 5.8125; 500% [Blaster/Scrapper cap] * 1.125 [best modifier for each] = 5.625; 700% [new Brute cap]  * 0.75 = 5.25)

 

Tankers can do more theoretical total damage with AoE attacks due to higher target caps and larger areas, while the Brute will usually do more damage per target. Because of the difference in base damage there are situations when the Tanker will do more damage per target and have higher target caps and larger areas, but these are mostly limited to +damage sets (particularly Super Strength with stacked Rage) and low Brute Fury (<50%).

 

So let's look at a common scenario, Super Strength with stacked Rage (+160% damage) which would favor the Tanker in many ways due to their base damage scale being higher (0.95 vs 0.75), and give the Brute 50%, 75%, and 90% Fury. To simpify things, I'm just going to use 100% damage slotting.

 

Knockout Blow (scale 3.56 attack, single target):

Tanker: 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.95 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 3.56 (scale of attack) = 677.06 damage

Brute (50% Fury): 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.75 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1 [Fury] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 3.56 (scale of attack) = 683.00 damage

Brute (75% Fury): 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.75 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1.5 [Fury] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 3.56 (scale of attack) = 757.24 damage

Brute (90% Fury): 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.75 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1.8 [Fury] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 3.56 (scale of attack) = 801.78 damage

 

Foot Stomp (scale 1.42, saturated AoE):

Tanker: 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.95 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 1.42 (scale of attack) = 270.06 damage per target

* 16 targets (max) = 4321.03 total damage to all targets

Brute (50% Fury): 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.75 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1 [Fury] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 1.42 (scale of attack) = 272.43 damage per target

* 10 targets (max) = 2724.33 total damage to all targets

Brute (75% Fury): 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.75 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1.5 [Fury] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 1.42 (scale of attack) = 302.05 damage per target

* 10 targets (max) = 3020.46 total damage to all targets

Brute (90% Fury): 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.75 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1.8 [Fury] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 1.42 (scale of attack) = 319.81 damage per target

* 10 targets (max) = 3198.13 total damage to all targets

 

...and while I've been typing this out a bunch of other replies have come in, so I'll just wrap this wall of text up now.

Very good analysis!

 

If you have a team of 8 brutes vs a team of 8 tankers which one will move faster?

 

Mop up AOE is largely irrelevant in most team situations unless the tanker or brute is carrying the whole team - then 8 would say it favors the tanker.

 

I think solo still favors the brute in terms of dmg output because eventually - if you are facing them - the bosses have to be dealt with.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Infinitum

[siolfir]

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

If you have a team of 8 brutes vs a team of 8 tankers which one will move faster?

It largely depends on both powersets chosen and spawn composition, with more boss class or larger mobs and primaries with fewer AoEs favoring the Brutes, but maps will get cleared quickly either way. Ranged epic/Patron attacks also heavily favor Brutes since their ranged modifier (0.75) is much closer to the Tanker modifier (0.8) than their melee modifier is.

 

Also keep in mind the example I used heavily favored the Tanker, and they were still doing less per target.

 

But if you're really trying to clear spawns that quickly you bring a lot of Blasters.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, siolfir said:

But if you're really trying to clear spawns that quickly you bring a lot of Blasters.

Exactly.  lol. 

 

To the point of 8 brutes vs 8 tankers

 

The spawn size of 16 will be decimated either way - but if any bosses are present - the brutes with the higher dmg per attack will take them out faster than the tanker team every time.  It would be close though but the advantage from a dps standpoint is in the brutes court.

[Glacier Peak]

Assuming this question is regarding PvP and both are top tier builds (at hp cap with self heals) and IOed exceptionally well, neither will win. 

[Arbegla]

Did only the tanker primary get the AoE increase? Or secondary as well?

 

I'm specifically thinking things like Damage auras on tankers hitting 16 targets, where the brutes only hit 10..

[summers]

28 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

Did only the tanker primary get the AoE increase? Or secondary as well?

 

I'm specifically thinking things like Damage auras on tankers hitting 16 targets, where the brutes only hit 10..

Everything, including your epics and pool powers (hello giant Leadership!)

[siolfir]

59 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

Did only the tanker primary get the AoE increase? Or secondary as well?

 

I'm specifically thinking things like Damage auras on tankers hitting 16 targets, where the brutes only hit 10..

Tanker primaries would be the damage auras. The secondary powersets are the melee sets.

 

30 minutes ago, summers said:

Everything, including your epics and pool powers (hello giant Leadership!)

Mostly true, but there are some powers that were flagged to ignore the AoE buff and/or didn't get a target cap increase. I think those are listed in the patch notes, though, so people could report if powers not on that list were showing incorrect information (posting rushed or I'd check).

Edited February 5, 2021 by siolfir

[Infinitum]

 

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Very good analysis!

 

If you have a team of 8 brutes vs a team of 8 tankers which one will move faster?

 

Mop up AOE is largely irrelevant in most team situations unless the tanker or brute is carrying the whole team - then 8 would say it favors the tanker.

 

I think solo still favors the brute in terms of dmg output because eventually - if you are facing them - the bosses have to be dealt with.

with 8 the tankers since keeping 50% fury is hard with 8 brutes all on the same team. 

[ninja surprise]

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

Knockout Blow (scale 3.56 attack, single target):

Tanker: 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.95 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 3.56 (scale of attack) = 677.06 damage

Brute (50% Fury): 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.75 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1 [Fury] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 3.56 (scale of attack) = 683.00 damage

Brute (75% Fury): 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.75 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1.5 [Fury] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 3.56 (scale of attack) = 757.24 damage

Brute (90% Fury): 55.61 damage (scale 1 damage) * 0.75 (AT scale) * (1 [base damage] + 1 [slotting] + 1.8 [Fury] + 1.6 [stacked Rage]) * 3.56 (scale of attack) = 801.78 damage

 

Am I wrong or does this illustrate the difference in damage doesn't seem so vast? 

With ~120 points between the Tank and Brute at 90% Fury the Brute might be able to one-shot some minions but on tougher targets, either way, you're going to punch it at least twice with the Brute wasting more damage beyond the target HP. Unless KO Blow is followed with a smaller attack, or AoE spill.

However, if you're fighting an AV or other tough target then the extra Brute damage can really add up.

Is that accurate?

 

[Snarky]

Here is a comparison I worked on tonight.  Given what you folks have told me.  There is NO comparison.  Invul / Dark Tank, Money no object...versus Dark / Invul Brute...Money no object.   The Tank is unkillable.  Maybe if you dropped a few buildings, simultaneously on it.  Tim,e it right though or it will hit Dull Pain and you are in for a long fight.  The Brute is TOUGH.  But a lot of places where it can be harmed.  The Tank can now be incarnated for PURE Damage.  Because it is unkillable.  The Brute can settle for very very good survivability and get damage.  Or use Incarnate powers to get the survivability the Tank already has.

 

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Brute Mage: Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Sorcery
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBrtFur-Dmg/Rchg(43), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), SprBrtFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), SprBrtFur-Rech/Fury%(45)
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(7), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(9), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(3), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(3), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 4: Dull Pain -- DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(A), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(5), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(7)
Level 6: Shadow Maul -- Arm-Dmg(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(13), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), Arm-Acc/Rchg(15), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Arm-Dam%(21)
Level 8: Siphon Life -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(42)
Level 10: Resist Elements -- RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(11), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(11), RctArm-ResDam(13)
Level 12: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A)
Level 14: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(45), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(46), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 16: Unyielding -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(17), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(17), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(19)
Level 18: Dark Consumption -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(21), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(31)
Level 20: Resist Energies -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(46), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(48)
Level 22: Weave -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(23), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23), ShlWal-Def(25), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(48)
Level 24: Mystic Flight -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprUnrFur-Dmg/Rchg(31), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), SprUnrFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), SprUnrFur-Rchg/+Regen/+End(37)
Level 28: Invincibility -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(29), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(29), ShlWal-Def(31), Rct-ResDam%(42)
Level 30: Arcane Bolt -- Apc-Dmg(A), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(48), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(50), Apc-Dam%(50)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(33), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Hct-Acc/Rchg(33), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Hct-Dam%(34)
Level 35: Tough Hide -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(36), ShlWal-Def(36), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(36)
Level 38: Rune of Protection -- UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(A), GldArm-RechRes(39), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(39), TtnCtn-ResDam/Rchg(39)
Level 41: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 44: Superior Conditioning -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury 
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
------------

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This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Tank Mage: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Dark Melee
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Sorcery
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), Ags-Psi/Status(3), GldArm-3defTpProc(3)
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(5), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(9)
Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(9), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(11), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(11), UnbGrd-Max HP%(13)
Level 4: Shadow Maul -- Arm-Dmg(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(15), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), Arm-Acc/Rchg(17), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Arm-Dam%(19)
Level 6: Dull Pain -- DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(A), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(21), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(21)
Level 8: Resist Elements -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(23), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(23), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25)
Level 10: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%(A)
Level 12: Unyielding -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(25), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(27), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(27)
Level 14: Resist Energies -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(29), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(29), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 16: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A)
Level 18: Invincibility -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(31), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(31), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Rct-ResDam%(33)
Level 20: Siphon Life -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(34), TchofDth-Dam%(34), TchofDth-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), TchofDth-Dmg/Rchg(36)
Level 22: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), ImpArm-ResPsi(36)
Level 24: Weave -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(36), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(37), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 26: Tough Hide -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(37), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(39), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(39)
Level 28: Soul Drain -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(40), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(40), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(42), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(42), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 32: Mystic Flight -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 35: Dark Consumption -- Erd-Acc/Rchg(A), Erd-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Erd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(45)
Level 38: Midnight Grasp -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(46), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Hct-Acc/Rchg(46), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Hct-Dam%(48)
Level 41: Arcane Bolt -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A)
Level 44: Rune of Protection -- UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(A), GldArm-RechRes(50), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(50), TtnCtn-ResDam/Rchg(50)
Level 47: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(48)
Level 49: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(13), Mrc-Rcvry+(15)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 50: Resilient Core Paragon 
Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment 
------------

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[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

with 8 the tankers since keeping 50% fury is hard with 8 brutes all on the same team. 

Not since the update - and with the ATOs it should be fine - i have ran with an all brute team and we generated plenty of fury.

 

 

• Brutes now get bonus fury generation in teams - the larger the team, the larger the bonus.

[Infinitum]

You could go either way with it - with invul if its built right it will be hard to bring a Brute down with or without Incarnate Mitigation tactics - usually i go agility either way with Invul because increased recharge means increased power avail.

 

If you went Melee Core you wouldnt be wrong and still have better damage than the tanker on most things - especially ST.

 

Personally I favor the Tanker here because im a huge fan of overkill when it comes to mitigation... lol  But i have a Invul Tanker and an Invul Brute - both are nigh unkillable.

[Biff Pow]

4 hours ago, siolfir said:

the Tanker buff that increased theirs to +400% (500% total)

I see this a lot but it's only 400% total. The meter goes up to +400% but my damage caps around +300% because Enhancements are included.

[Heraclea]

6 hours ago, siolfir said:

The Brute +damage cap was reduced (to +600%, or 700% total) with the Tanker buff that increased theirs to +400% (500% total); the stated reason for this was to bring Tanker damage to approximately 80% of Brute damage when both were at caps, and lowering the Brute damage cap instead of a further increase of the Tanker cap was because the existing Brute cap allowed them to hit harder per attack scale than a Blaster (775% [old Brute cap] * 0.75 [AT modifier] = 5.8125; 500% [Blaster/Scrapper cap] * 1.125 [best modifier for each] = 5.625; 700% [new Brute cap] * 0.75 = 5.25).

 

Tankers can do more theoretical total damage with AoE attacks due to higher target caps and larger areas making them more likely to hit more targets, while the Brute will usually do more damage per target. Because of the difference in base damage there are situations when the Tanker will do more damage per target and have higher target caps and larger areas, but these are mostly limited to +damage sets (particularly Super Strength with stacked Rage) and low Brute Fury (<50%) but these are the exception

This is true but is somewhat misleading.  At about the same time that Tankers were getting raised AoE target caps and Brute max damage was lowered slightly, the Brute also got a significant buff to fury generation and retention.   The lowering of the max Brute +damage cap was a nerf to the rare situations where the brute was being buffed to the gills (6 Super reds worth of +damage), while in most situations the Brute was receiving a buff from having more fury longer.   The changes were a buff to brutes 99% of the time.   If DPS is your main concern you're still better off with a brute. 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Heraclea
One of these days I will get 'rage' and 'fury' straight.....

[siolfir]

10 hours ago, Supertanker said:

I see this a lot but it's only 400% total. The meter goes up to +400% but my damage caps around +300% because Enhancements are included.

Yes, but slotting being included in the +damage that counts towards the cap is true of every AT and if you want to figure out what the damage is at the cap you multiply the base by 5 for Tankers, not 4 (like you used to have to). Not everyone slots powers that do damage for damage, and when they do it can be slotted with wildly varying numbers, but you know that no matter how much slotting or +damage from other buffs you get, it's not doing more than 5 times the base (unslotted) damage on a Tanker.

 

8 hours ago, Heraclea said:

This is true but is somewhat misleading.  At about the same time that Tankers were getting raised AoE target caps and Brute max damage was lowered slightly, the Brute also got a significant buff to fury generation and retention.   The lowering of the max Brute +damage cap was a nerf to the rare situations where the brute was being buffed to the gills (6 Super reds worth of +damage), while in most situations the Brute was receiving a buff from having more fury longer.   The changes were a buff to brutes 99% of the time.   If DPS is your main concern you're still better off with a brute. 

I even stated that it was the exception. If you cherry-pick situations you can show a Tanker doing more damage than a Brute, but I even used a mostly-optimal situation for the Tanker, pointed out that it was heavily weighted towards the Tanker, and then showed the Brute doing more damage at 50% Fury, which is a number that's trivial to maintain and always has been, even when Fury decayed constantly but was +3% damage per point with an 850% Brute damage cap.

[arcane]

This whole argument is highly silly to me. Even the folks cherry-picking data trying to prove the ridiculous claim that brutes are literally useless now have posted their very own tests showing that their brutes are still doing more damage.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

This whole argument is highly silly to me. Even the folks cherry-picking data trying to prove the ridiculous claim that brutes are literally useless now have posted their very own tests showing that their brutes are still doing more damage.

It's even more silly how so many on the other side completely ignore how much greater the difference is between the mitigation values than the damage values.