Change Sidekick to level rather than level-1

[Purrfekshawn]

20 hours ago, Greycat said:

I'd say it's flavor.  You're a sidekick, not a peer. Kid Superguy, not Superguy themselves.

And that's quite true. + also AFAIR when someone in team defeats +5 add, they get more experience than for +4 add. So to speak, they actually level faster being exemplared to lvl 49, than lvl 50, so it's beneficial to them, if We recall correctly how it works.

[Greycat]

7 hours ago, BelleSorciere said:

It's not flavor. It's a mechanical choice that has a real impact on one's ability to participate in a mission or task/strike force

 

You asked why that exists. I said why I think it exists. You are a sidekick, you are learning from your mentor. IE, flavor.

 

I don't know where you got everything else you threw in that reply from what I said.

[Greycat]

Double post.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Greycat

[Aberrant]

7 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

This is not a bad idea, but I couldn't see the stat for it? Do we know the buffs it gives?

Here's the stats for "Sneaked In!", exact numbers change depending on Archetype modifiers.

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Aberrant

[TemporalVileTerror]

Huh.  @Aberrant, that webpage just renders as:

 

And while I notice some other players are certainly pushing back against your idea, @BelleSorciere, I did want to clarify that I'm not.  

I was just using it as a bit of a soap box to also bring up the point there is definitely a mentality to crank difficulty levels to max despite the enjoyment (or lack thereof) of other players in a team.

[Aberrant]

16 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Huh.  @Aberrant, that webpage just renders as:

 

I'm guessing a javascript issue? May want to check in the City of Data thread.

[Purrfekshawn]

24 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Huh.  @Aberrant, that webpage just renders as:

 

And while I notice some other players are certainly pushing back against your idea, @BelleSorciere, I did want to clarify that I'm not.  

I was just using it as a bit of a soap box to also bring up the point there is definitely a mentality to crank difficulty levels to max despite the enjoyment (or lack thereof) of other players in a team.

How about the solid lack of enjoyment for normal 50+1 T3/T4 incarnates, if they make level not +4 and receive much less XP+INF, while also have constant feeling that they clobber weak enemies?! The game is balanced poorly, and endgame characters steamroll most endgame content, while underleveled ones may struggle to defeat even a minion. But otoh the same issue present in practically any game.

 

Luckily here in City of Heroes, having a firefarmer, you can powerrun all the path from 1 to 50+1 within several hours (for me it usually takes 3 hours, but more damage firefarmers may lower that time), so l usually never have problems with it.

[arthurh35353]

6 hours ago, Aberrant said:

Here's the stats for "Sneaked In!", exact numbers change depending on Archetype modifiers.

Those are a little more than I expected and not graded on a curve. Hmm.

 

[BelleSorciere]

11 hours ago, Greycat said:

You asked why that exists. I said why I think it exists. You are a sidekick, you are learning from your mentor. IE, flavor.

 

I don't know where you got everything else you threw in that reply from what I said.

The rest of it was a general response to other replies. I do apologize that I wasn't clear that the entire post wasn't a response to you. I do agree it was likely a flavor decision, I just think that the game's changed a lot since then (and sidekicking itself has changed a lot as well).

 

Also the decision that sidekicks be -1 was made before launch so is a bit decrepit given the current game, how difficulty functions, etc.

 

To the current discussion:

The sneaked in stuff looks like an interesting way to go.

Edited February 8, 2021 by BelleSorciere

[krj12]

Most level 50 TFs advertise whether they're running at +4 or not,  if you're not comfortable running at that setting, just don't join that team?

 

[BelleSorciere]

1 hour ago, krj12 said:

Most level 50 TFs advertise whether they're running at +4 or not,  if you're not comfortable running at that setting, just don't join that team?

 

This doesn't address my suggestion and isn't constructive. The point of my suggestion is to change how sidekicking works across the board. Asking individuals to take individual action isn't a real alternative, just a way to compensate for the current game mechanic works.

 

I usually go on TFs with my SG, with people I've played CoH with since before sunset. If I do team with people I don't know, it's always on a character in the relevant level range.

Edited February 9, 2021 by BelleSorciere

[BelleSorciere]

The purple patch from before issue one was implemented to encourage players to stick to fighting mobs within four levels of themselves. The current SK system, whether level 50 or lower TFs/SFs, can and does put people into a position where they're fighting +5 to their level. +4 wouldn't make them significantly more powerful, but it'd make teaming less painful without insisting that people change their play style or just not play certain characters with their friends.

 

Notoriety made it so people could fight anywhere from -1 to +4 their level, regardless of the number of team members. 

 

I think that the -1 level has been out of date ever since the purple patch and the addition of notoriety.

 

 

[TemporalVileTerror]

I'm not sure that's true of all the Shards, @krj12.  At least it doesn't seem to be a standard practice to advertise that information on Everlasting from my experience.

[Darmian]

12 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

Those are a little more than I expected and not graded on a curve. Hmm.

 

I did say it would need tweaking!

[Vanden]

My takeaway from this thread is that the game needs a purple patch/issue 5-2: electric boogaloo, to make purple enemies the threat they're meant to be once again.

[arthurh35353]

8 minutes ago, Vanden said:

My takeaway from this thread is that the game needs a purple patch/issue 5-2: electric boogaloo, to make purple enemies the threat they're meant to be once again.

Which is rather sad, as this basically shows that the purple patch is too harsh for a sidekick that is -1 level.

[SeraphimKensai]

Personally the only ally level adjustments I think need to be made are making MM pets the same level as their MM (which would fix a lot of MM issues like pets getting left behind in group flight, or simply deleted by +4 mobs). That said, if I'm playing a lowbie and going to run higher than my own level content, I understand that I will likely be in over my head. This concept is shown to us in comics and the MCU as well, like Spiderman stowing away on a spaceship to help Ironman despite Ironman knowing it's above Spiderman's pay grade. Sure he helps as best as he can, but is largely just a distraction to someone like Thantos, whereas Captain Marvel can lay down a beating.

 

Back to CoH, most people that know me know I play min/max built toons, so whether my room is lvl 1 or 50+++ it's loaded to the gills with as many IO's as possible. I understand that isn't the norm, especially at sub 50 levels.

 

Perhaps it's just my personal perception of usefulness in a team, but more often than not I feel like I'm carrying a team (and that has its place every now and then especially if I'm feeling like helping some people gain some experience, but that's typically in AE). When I join a pug for a taskforce or mission team the first thing I do is inspect all my teammates powers, and if they are IO'd or not. On a pug, I prefer that the difficulty is set to +0 by default so that any un or under slotted will be able to contribute to the best of their abilities. Now if the team is fully loaded up on IO's and I have the time I'm generally fine with +4 on a pug.

 

Here's where the bias comes in, if I'm playing with friends or sg members I don't necessarily mind an underslotted toon on a +4, so long as I feel that I or the combination of myself and the rest of the team can absorb the underslotted toon's shortcomings.

 

Given all that though, I feel like earning lvl 50 or even 15 is a milestone, and having someone playing at a lvl 50 combat level when their only lvl 12 detracts from the effort that the lvl 50 player put in, so -1 still allows them to come, and also gives motivation to grow as a hero or villain. Sorry I'm being long winded, but I can't do anything else as my dog is lying on my and I'm trapped. Thanks folks.

[thunderforce]

On 2/7/2021 at 7:35 AM, BelleSorciere said:

After running an ITF on my Dark/Dark controller and dealing with +5 mobs all the way through, I find myself asking what purpose the -1 to team level serves, given the large gap between being -4 to mobs vs being -5. That is, if I read the table correctly, 30% effectiveness vs. 48%. I didn't really feel like I was doing much other than a few buffs and a minor amount of damage. 

 

Due to having a character that relies on control, buffs, and debuffs, I felt less effective than I ever have on any other character, even when sidekicking, and I'm not even sure the reasons for the -1 level are still true in the game today.

I'm not sure there _was_ a reason, beyond the "sidekick" name. The -1 level on sidekicks is the last vestige of the bad old pre-Super-Sidekicking days (and as you note it's especially bad when you're effectively -2 in addition to not having boffo incarnate powers, and worse yet when you're a mastermind with pets at -3 to the team leader); there really is no reason not to make everyone in the team the same combat level at all times.

[Poacher]

On 2/7/2021 at 5:41 AM, Greycat said:

I'd say it's flavor.  You're a sidekick, not a peer. Kid Superguy, not Superguy themselves.

I concur. Sidekicks/Lackies are a game mechanic that were flavored after the superhero genre. So it makes sense that you'd be -1 to your mentor. If the -1 is so detrimental to combat, then ask a defender to join your team. Or buy inspirations. Or join a team that's your level.

 

I remember during live when team members weren't automatically made the level of the leader. Sidekicking was 1-to-1, so you were the level of whoever was available, even if they were -3 to the level of NPCs. Sidekicking was an option, especially if you wanted to play with a friend. But you were encouraged to play zones and content with players that were your level.

[Doomguide2005]

    I'm mixed on the suggestion.  I do think there's an element of courtesy missing as mentioned.  Everyone should be okay with running at whatever notoriety is set.  If anything it's more important here as it's a task force not a single council mission in PI.  Expectations are likely different.  But courtesy and communication is a two way street as well.  And not just about the notoriety setting but is it a speed run, defeat all or most, tf settings like foes buffed or players debuffed.  And the leader shouldn't be expected to take all the responsibility for communication.  Team members also need to speak up about their expectations (and tolerances).

    There's also something a bit wonky with the "gap" between a 50+1 and the effective level of sidekick if it is a 2 level difference in effectiveness.

 

 

[thunderforce]

13 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

    I'm mixed on the suggestion.  I do think there's an element of courtesy missing as mentioned.  Everyone should be okay with running at whatever notoriety is set.

That would be easier to do if everyone's at the same combat level, rather than if the players with fewer powers are also at a lower combat level. Precisely the problem we have at the moment is it's hard to please the 50+1 to whom +4s (really +3s) aren't dangerous enough, and the 49 who can't really do much to +5s. Of course, it wouldn't fix all the difficulty problems, but this is an easy and obvious change which addresses many of them.

[UltraAlt]

On 2/7/2021 at 2:35 AM, BelleSorciere said:

sidekicking, and I'm not even sure the reasons for the -1 level are still true in the game today.

So if we look to comicbook lore, the whole point of a sidekick is that they aren't at the same level as the hero.

They would be a partner or ally if they were on the same level.

 

Being -1 level to the team leader gives you more XP than being on-par with the team leader

The game is giving you a hand to be able to take part in higher level combat/teaming and Homecoming has already made the sidekicking/mentoring combat much simpler to use.

(Back-in-the-day, you could end being on a team run by a level 50, sidekicked to someone what was like level 46 or something and set at a level up to -4 levels below the level of the character that was your mentor so like -9 levels to the level 50 team lead - this had related XP increase for the level difference so it was used for powerleveling)

 

I think way that sidekicking and mentoring is working well.

I have not experience any major issues with it.

 

As many have told me "it is working as intended"

 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by UltraAlt

[Riverdusk]

Yep, this whole issue is even much worse when you are playing a Mastermind.  Enemies are potentially +5 to your character.  They are +7 to the tier 1 pets.  That means a base 8% chance to hit.  Talk about worthless.  I might as well be one of those infamous petless masterminds so many complain about.   

 

When leveling up a mastermind I've gotten to the point I just avoid joining any groups that are advertising that they are higher level than me.  Not worth the extra trouble.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, thunderforce said:

That would be easier to do if everyone's at the same combat level, rather than if the players with fewer powers are also at a lower combat level. Precisely the problem we have at the moment is it's hard to please the 50+1 to whom +4s (really +3s) aren't dangerous enough, and the 49 who can't really do much to +5s. Of course, it wouldn't fix all the difficulty problems, but this is an easy and obvious change which addresses many of them.

Yes, of course.  But that goes right back to "is this setting okay for everyone?"  If not then reduce it to +3 (or lower),  join a different team or form one yourself (regardless if the 'not okay' is the star or the sidekick).  That's where communication and compromise come into play.  Would I have trouble changing it *shrug* ultimately no, not really I just think the alpha shift wonkiness is more problematic and the rest really comes down to just being courteous and sociable towards your fellow gamers and potential teammates.

 

Edit:  or swap characters or invite/look for a buffer/debuffer or, or, or

Edited February 9, 2021 by Doomguide2005

[SwitchFade]

On 2/7/2021 at 5:30 AM, TemporalVileTerror said:

Not hoping to get lynched here, but . . . 

Could the team leaders just start being considerate and launching things at +3 (or lower) instead when they know they have Sidekicks on the team?

Word.

 

SK system, to me, works fine. This is classified as...

 

Operator Error... On the part of the team lead