Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (Build 1)

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Tested (unboosted, unslotted) Super Jump at level 4.  Leaping vertically, could just make it to the roof of City Hall in Atlas Park - which is basically the same performance as Live.

Can you ellaborate, is that same performance as Live at level 4, or at level 50?

[Replacement]

4 hours ago, Tigraine said:

 

For some characters, I've used some complicated keybind files to toggle between hover/fly or switching them off, while also swapping costumes.  With two keys, I could go from any state to any desired state.  These do not work now that the powers are not mutually exclusive.  So for complex setups, it doesn't work.

For most of my characters, I just had keys assigned to the Hover and Fly powers, no macros needed, and I could just hit one or the other to turn them on as needed, and rely on them toggling the other off, or still would only need to hit one to have neither on and land on the ground.  It was an easy toggle from travel to combat to being on the ground.  That will no longer work either, so it doesn't work for the simple setups.  And I'm going to go out on a limb and say that, just from my experience, many if not most players don't use macros, and just want a simple setup.

My problem with this:

• In the "complex" use case, any setup I can envision can be slightly tweaked to still work.
• Any "simple" setup can be slightly tweaked and maintain a similar simplicity.  The bind I mentioned earlier, as @CaptainLupis echoes, is even simpler from a usability standpoint (one button to manage both toggles), though it does have less fine-tuning ability.
  I find the one-button toggle + manual click on an icon when I want both on or off is the best of both worlds.
• Finally, if you want to bring out the "many if not most players don't even use binds period," then I submit: those players can continue to manage Fly and Hover just like everyone manages multiple toggles.  Try Dark Armor, for example.  Clicking on them individually to enable/disable as context suits them is not at all the QoL disaster it's being made out to be.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Replacement

[aethereal]

7 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Can you ellaborate, is that same performance as Live at level 4, or at level 50?

 

A level 50 character with super jump can get substantially above the roof of city hall on live, albeit not vastly higher.  127.8 is my jump height per combat attributes on a rando level 50 character.

 

A level 50 character on brainstorm gets similar jump height to me, 122.27 feet (I probably have a jump enhancement in hurdle or something on live).  Seems to me like it's working as intended.

[Jacktar]

2 hours ago, GM Arcanum said:

 

So to clarify - yes, the first three power pools of a travel class become available immediately.

The first three powers of Flight are Hover, Air Superiority, and Fly. Therefore to get Group Fly you will need to be at least Level 14 and have two of the other powers as it's the fourth power pick. This is working as intended.

Does that answer the question? Or are you questioning why Group Fly isn't the Tier 3 power?

GM Arcanum, hi and  thanks for looking after me, I refer you to the first line of my post and put hands up to admit I forgot about Air Superiority duh.

Be nice if they were swapped over, but as have never gone near Air Superiority there must be good reasons for it to be available before Group Fly.

Thanks muchly, will stop fretting now 👍😇

[Hew]

1 minute ago, Jacktar said:

 I forgot about Air Superiority duh.

 

People actually take this power. I think for pvp too. It isnt as utterly unused as one might think. I have been surprised over the years at the number of people that take it!

 

[Dragotect]

On 3/13/2021 at 8:51 AM, Tigraine said:

 

Wait, what?  

 

No thanks; I'd rather have the old Afterburner back.  It's a convenience issue, particularly when doing a lot of traveling, or if pausing and hanging out in a space for a bit before continuing on, to not have to rely on these sorts of cooldowns being ready or not.  

Wouldn't you just run fly with combat maneuvers then? The speed/control would be the same as fly+afterburner before. Plus, now, you get a drastic boost to speed for 30 seconds if you hit afterburner.

[Doc_Scorpion]

58 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Can you ellaborate, is that same performance as Live at level 4, or at level 50?

The vertical performance of Super Jump at lvl 4 on Brainstorm is roughly equivalent to the performance at lvl 4 on Live.  But it looks like vertical travel doesn't actually change that much as you level (so I may be probably am off base here).  On Live, I can't really reach Top Dog (via the second story of City Hall) until level 10-12 or so - and guess what levels I start slotting DO's (in Jump and Hurdle) at?  (SO's nowadays, yes.  But I haven't built a new jumper since the changeover.)

Edit to add:  Yeah, with SO's in Hurdle and Super Jump a lvl 4 can reach Top Dog even without Double Jump.

Probably shouldn't be tossing off ill conceived tests on a Monday morning on my first cup of coffee.

I withdraw my earlier post.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Doc_Scorpion

[Doc_Scorpion]

19 minutes ago, Jacktar said:

I forgot about Air Superiority duh.

Pretty much all my flyers take Air Superiority pretty early.  Knockdown is handy, cheap, soft control for melee types...  And it's really useful for getting pursuers off your tail for ranged types.

[ninja surprise]

5 hours ago, parabola said:

Quite. How anyone can be upset by these changes is utterly beyond me. They are giving us more speed and more utility for free. Clicking afterburner is totally optional, where on earth is the problem?

 

4 hours ago, Wavicle said:

The argument seems to be this:

"If Fly isn't buffed Relative to the other travel powers, then it doesn't count."

 

o.O

 

The objection actually seems to be "Right now I can toggle on all my travel powers and under the new system one of the toggles automatically turns off". 

Speed of flight doesn't even come into it, only that one of the toggles deactivates. Nevermind that with 1 pick, Fly, they go as fast as what now requires 3 picks.

For those who currently use Afterburner as a high-defense PFF to sneak around maps, it's a nerf to completely lose that functionality.

 

5 hours ago, Sovera said:

I'll insist that people pick their travel power for theme more than they do for min maxing. While not everyone roleplays most people still have a theme and stick to it. And from that point of view do we need to balance powers for the min maxing angle?

 

Not sure where I fall on min/max vs theme, but I nearly always pick Mystic Flight. For me, Flight has always been the most consistently useful travel power, both for traversing zones and instance maps. I'll fly through caves, office buildings, and the outdoor maps looking for glowies, hostages, or that last hidden mob in a defeat-all. I use Translocation to get across a zone faster, and inside maps when a spawn is blocking a door I'll TP past them into the room behind them.

 

With the new changes, I know a few toons I'll change to Fly, and may even drop Combat Jumping for the first time ever if Evasive Maneuvers provides enough immob protection.

I'm likely to switch a bunch to Super Speed and Speed Phase, because momentum leap means not having to find a ramp in Steel Canyon or Skyway, a Steam Jump can get me up the web in Grandville, and Speed Phase can get me through all the spawns I want to ignore on the way to the Thorn Tree on Miss Liberty's TF, etc. (Right now I Afterburner through the CoT.)

 

I'll still likely never take Super Jump because it randomly gives me vertigo.  I don't like falling.

 

I like the changes to the movement pools. In comics the heroes that fly can fly really fast so I never understood the justification for it being slow, and unenhanceable for speed. 

[Tigraine]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

My problem with this:

• In the "complex" use case, any setup I can envision can be slightly tweaked to still work.

 

No, it really can't.  Not without completely reworking what I have from the ground up, and that means changing 15 bind files that took significant time and effort to get to work in the first place.

 

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

• Any "simple" setup can be slightly tweaked and maintain a similar simplicity.  The bind I mentioned earlier, as @CaptainLupis echoes, is even simpler from a usability standpoint (one button to manage both toggles), though it does have less fine-tuning ability.
  I find the one-button toggle + manual click on an icon when I want both on or off is the best of both worlds.

 

No, "simple" means not using binds/macros period.

 

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

• Finally, if you want to bring out the "many if not most players don't even use binds period," then I submit: those players can continue to manage Fly and Hover just like everyone manages multiple toggles.  Try Dark Armor, for example.  Clicking on them individually to enable/disable as context suits them is not at all the QoL disaster it's being made out to be.

 

Making them not mutually exclusive doubles this effort from what it was before.  Sure, it's "just one more click," but that's one more click on top of all the others that must be toggled when entering/leaving combat, and it's an effort that was previously unnecessary.  You may not think it's a big deal, but it's introducing a new inconvenience that didn't have to be there.  How much that inconvenience matters to different players is going to vary widely, and you can't just dismiss that some people do not like it.

[SwitchFade]

@Captain Powerhouse

 

I do have one question,

 

For travel powers that are running in tandem, is the intent for the primary power animation to be superior when in motion, once the changes migrate to live?

 

For example, if fly and hover are both running in tandem, will the fly animation be preferred over hover?

 

I'm not concerned with if this is currently the case during testing, merely curious if this is the design intent once ready for live?

[QuiJon]

6 hours ago, Infinitum said:

But it's a lot better than it was, it cant be perma because it wouldn't balance well. Eventually the others come back to earth.

If it is perma now has does keeping it perma unbalance anything. As it stands These changes basically re-institute it seems like all the unbalanced nature of flight from before Afterburner was added to the game. At least for any trip that is longer then .9 miles. 

 

When the game came out (its been a while but if i recall correctly) flight speed capped with fly and 3 slots at around 62-65 mph. While SS caped with nothing but its native slot at like 92 mph. So really the best that a flier could do was 25-30mph slower then a SSer. And it was always cried it was balance cause flying was direct path, safer etc. However as game play went on SS was found to really be just as safe and way faster, especially if you took something like CJing with it. Eventually they did a new round of powers and fly got afterburner, SJ got that teleport attack etc. So with afterburner flight got boosted to the 87mph it is now, still slower then speed when you consider that with free p2w powers the vertical limits of speeding are easily overcome. And the way it is right now, with afterburner i get to a mission maybe just behind a speeder and a jumper but not to far behind. 

 

But these chagnes boost SS to 120 mph ALL THE TIME, if i read it correctly. Which means that anytime afterburner is not running i am essentially going to be back at the same mph difference that originally existed in the game, even at a higher speed cap. Where previous to these changes the afterburner boost mostly closed that difference and allowed me to keep up. Not exceed mind you but keep up. Now even with AB on i will be 18mph slower then a speedster and if it is long enough it goes off i will be some 32mph behind them. 

 

So yeah i dont see any reason why the AB buff can not be perma like now, 10 - 30 second cool down. Keeping the only effect self and move the defense to elusive maneuvers. 

[SwitchFade]

5 minutes ago, Tigraine said:

 

No, it really can't.  Not without completely reworking what I have from the ground up, and that means changing 15 bind files that took significant time and effort to get to work in the first place.

 

 

No, "simple" means not using binds/macros period.

 

 

Making them not mutually exclusive doubles this effort from what it was before.  Sure, it's "just one more click," but that's one more click on top of all the others that must be toggled when entering/leaving combat, and it's an effort that was previously unnecessary.  You may not think it's a big deal, but it's introducing a new inconvenience that didn't have to be there.  How much that inconvenience matters to different players is going to vary widely, and you can't just dismiss that some people do not like it.

I had some thoughts about exclusivity, but upon testing with no bias in mind, I found no issues.

 

Further, I simply moved CJ from one of my under thumb mouse buttons, as it was always on before, in essence, when standing around or in combat.

 

Two things resulted,

 

1. I still hit the mouse key bound to alt10 to start SJ, and then hit it to stop SJ same as before.

 

2. CJ is moved to alt7, as an example, with the other "set and forget armour toggles" and even if I do reflexively hit other under thumb mouse button for alt9, no effect, no problem, no changes to before in reality.

 

I urge you to try this, because in play, there's actually no difference and as i get used to not hitting that second mouse button, I can refrain myself to use if for another power eventually.

 

Really, this is actually, in this case, a superior set up to before.

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

If it is perma now has does keeping it perma unbalance anything. As it stands These changes basically re-institute it seems like all the unbalanced nature of flight from before Afterburner was added to the game. At least for any trip that is longer then .9 miles. 

 

When the game came out (its been a while but if i recall correctly) flight speed capped with fly and 3 slots at around 62-65 mph. While SS caped with nothing but its native slot at like 92 mph. So really the best that a flier could do was 25-30mph slower then a SSer. And it was always cried it was balance cause flying was direct path, safer etc. However as game play went on SS was found to really be just as safe and way faster, especially if you took something like CJing with it. Eventually they did a new round of powers and fly got afterburner, SJ got that teleport attack etc. So with afterburner flight got boosted to the 87mph it is now, still slower then speed when you consider that with free p2w powers the vertical limits of speeding are easily overcome. And the way it is right now, with afterburner i get to a mission maybe just behind a speeder and a jumper but not to far behind. 

 

But these chagnes boost SS to 120 mph ALL THE TIME, if i read it correctly. Which means that anytime afterburner is not running i am essentially going to be back at the same mph difference that originally existed in the game, even at a higher speed cap. Where previous to these changes the afterburner boost mostly closed that difference and allowed me to keep up. Not exceed mind you but keep up. Now even with AB on i will be 18mph slower then a speedster and if it is long enough it goes off i will be some 32mph behind them. 

 

So yeah i dont see any reason why the AB buff can not be perma like now, 10 - 30 second cool down. Keeping the only effect self and move the defense to elusive maneuvers. 

They already explained that, like it or not that's the point of balance they feel is necessary, I agree with it myself.

[GM Lines]

15 minutes ago, Tigraine said:

 

No, it really can't.  Not without completely reworking what I have from the ground up, and that means changing 15 bind files that took significant time and effort to get to work in the first place.

 

 

Have you given them a try on beta?

If so - and they haven't worked - are you happy to share the bind files? Myself and others would be happy to try to get them working. (This might be best in a separate thread to keep this one on track)

 

8 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

But these chagnes boost SS to 120 mph ALL THE TIME, if i read it correctly.

 

I don't think you did. On my superspeed character right now on beta, I'm at 72.6 mph. I haven't tested what would be needed to get to the new cap of 120mph.

[Infinitum]

On 3/13/2021 at 10:18 AM, GM Lines said:

 

Yup! You can place afterburner in your trays and switch off the server tray. It'll be greyed out while fly isn't active.

curious, how do you do this?

 

Switch off the server tray that is.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Infinitum

[QuiJon]

 

 

2 minutes ago, GM Lines said:

 

 

 

I don't think you did. On my superspeed character right now on beta, I'm at 72.6 mph. I haven't tested what would be needed to get to the new cap of 120mph.

All i can go off of is the numbers presented in this thread which back on page 1 say someone has a fly speed of 120mph and it is quoted as a full ltime speed cap increase. Where the 102 mph cap increase is only good 1 third of the time. The rest of the time a flier would be going 32mph slower then a speedster is capable of going all the time. Now if that speed boost was a temp also, that say for 30 seconds added in that cap boost and the jumping mechanic as a bonus to SS getting a proportional buff to keep up with the new flight speed cap that is one thing, but it doesnt sound like it works that way. Speed is getting the ability when it was already the fastest to go even faster all the time, while flight is being given its current cap with 1 less power choice but only gets a buff a third of the time. 

[CaptainLupis]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

curious, how do you do this?

 

Switch off the server tray that is.

Just drag it to another slot when it is up then disable the bar at null the gull.

[Lines]

13 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

curious, how do you do this?

 

Switch off the server tray that is.

 

At the moment, it can be done on a power that already had the functionality at null (mystic flight, speed of sound, etc). Then respeccing to fly will keep the server tray hidden.

 

I'm sure it will be an option with the new powers before the page goes live.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Lines

[Arcanum]

11 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

curious, how do you do this?

 

Switch off the server tray that is.

 

2 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

Just drag it to another slot when it is up then disable the bar at null the gull.

This is correct. You can select the option "Could you disable my Mystic Flight popup tray?" from Null the Gull in Pocket D under "What can you do?" Currently this deactivates the pop-up tray entirely and is not exclusive to just Mystic Flight as the wording suggests.

[Glacier Peak]

15 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

All i can go off of is the numbers presented in this thread which back on page 1 say someone has a fly speed of 120mph and it is quoted as a full ltime speed cap increase. Where the 102 mph cap increase is only good 1 third of the time. The rest of the time a flier would be going 32mph slower then a speedster is capable of going all the time. Now if that speed boost was a temp also, that say for 30 seconds added in that cap boost and the jumping mechanic as a bonus to SS getting a proportional buff to keep up with the new flight speed cap that is one thing, but it doesnt sound like it works that way. Speed is getting the ability when it was already the fastest to go even faster all the time, while flight is being given its current cap with 1 less power choice but only gets a buff a third of the time. 

At Level 50, with no enhancements or set bonus on Beta right now, my character has:

Base = 19.33 MPH running speed (Base 14.32 MPH + 5.01 MPH Swift).

Base + Sprint = 33.65 MPH (Sprint adds 7.16 MPH)

Base + Sprint + Super Speed OR Speed of Sound = 83.76 MPH (Both SS and SoS adds 50.11 MPH)

 

Putting 1 Level 50 Generic Run Speed IO in to Swift, Sprint, and SS gets me to 110.17 MPH.

 

It is almost too easy to hit the speed cap using Super Speed this way - and this is without factoring in set bonuses. 

 

Also, @Bopper made a spreadsheet that breaks down flight speed here:

 

Edit furthermore: You can also test these changes on the beta shard as well.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Glacier Peak
Edit

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, GM Arcanum said:

 

This is correct. You can select the option "Could you disable my Mystic Flight popup tray?" from Null the Gull in Pocket D under "What can you do?" Currently this deactivates the pop-up tray entirely and is not exclusive to just Mystic Flight as the wording suggests.

Ahhh mystic flight thats how I missed it.

 

Many thanks!

Edited March 15, 2021 by Infinitum

[Tigraine]

1 hour ago, GM Lines said:

 

Have you given them a try on beta?

If so - and they haven't worked - are you happy to share the bind files? Myself and others would be happy to try to get them working. (This might be best in a separate thread to keep this one on track)

 

It's not a setup that can be easily shared.  They utilize a Logitech gaming keyboard's macro key functionality to work.

[Tigraine]

53 minutes ago, GM Arcanum said:

 

This is correct. You can select the option "Could you disable my Mystic Flight popup tray?" from Null the Gull in Pocket D under "What can you do?" Currently this deactivates the pop-up tray entirely and is not exclusive to just Mystic Flight as the wording suggests.

 

So, going off of my previous question regarding how these trays will interact with Kheldian forms - if the "Mystic Flight popup tray" is disabled, will that also disable Kheldian popup trays (or any other similar trays), or will they be controlled independently?

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, Tigraine said:

It's not a setup that can be easily shared.  They utilize a Logitech gaming keyboard's macro key functionality to work.

Hopefully you can share! If not, can't you remap the keys you preset in the bind file? Or in the game options itself? Or in Logitech's G-Hub software?