Focused Feedback: Power Changes (Build 1)

[Likara]

I was going to agree with the others about the change to Ninjitsu, then I remembered, the slot I usually put in Shinobi-Iri can simply go into Combat Jumping instead, and place the stealth IO there, since Combat Jumping is one of my always-on toggles anyways.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Ritikesh

[DougGraves]

30 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Sniper Rifle cast time is not a bug. It has always been, since before shutdown at i24 beta, a 1.5s cast time on it's fast mode.

Fast snipes are not "normalized" some are slower than others. Would need to check but off the top of my head the range is between 1.33 and 1.67 seconds.

 

I would swear moonbeam is a fraction of a second not between 1.33 and 1.67 seconds.  Only sniper rifle seems to take longer than a second.  But I have not timed it.

[The Godchild]

I should probably mention that most of my /nin users are fliers...so the actual run/jump speed thing means basically nothing and Shinobi-iri is more or less holding my stleath IO, my issues is more with over-complicating the mez protection power which should be one of the most simple-to-use powers for what it does. Nin being a clicky has always been an oddity along with SR, but that's the nature of the positional-type defense sets and at its core its still as simple as "Put on auto > forget about it" once you've got it overlapping with itself...

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by The Godchild

[Mezmera]

As someone that is an advocate for having Unleash Potential or Rune in your build to balance things if you have lots of resist but low defense and vice versa I can see where you're coming from on nerfing the time that Rune is active.  I do think that it's fair to have all of those on the same timers.  Maybe because some have gotten so used to Rune as it is that 30s chopped off is a bit much to them.  I'm indifferent to this because it seems fair but people do like this power.  

 

If I had any pull I'd likely chop 15s off of Rune and add 15s to the other ones to meet in the middle.  

[Arcadio]

18 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

 

I would swear moonbeam is a fraction of a second not between 1.33 and 1.67 seconds.  Only sniper rifle seems to take longer than a second.  But I have not timed it.

You can see in mids the duration of the fast snipe, it's the cast time minus the interrupt time. As far as I can tell, they're all on second or more. And only a couple are actually one second.

[Galaxy Brain]

Sniper Rifle animates in something like 1.5~ seconds. However, this is an issue like we saw with Kinetic Melee being "slow" due to the point of the animation it fires. 

 

Other snipes behave as: Aim - fire - recoil / end

 

Sniper Rifle is: Aiiiiiiiiimmmmmm - Fire/End

 

 

Try it for yourself, and you'll see that you can queue up another attack and you IMMEDIATELY act the moment you shoot the sniper rifle shot where other snipes there is a pause after you fire. Ultimately, this does make it "slow" since it takes longer to apply the damage, but if you compare Sniper + Other attack to another 1-2 combo on another set it is likely the same time investment. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Captain Powerhouse]

5 minutes ago, Arcadio said:

You can see in mids the duration of the fast snipe, it's the cast time minus the interrupt time. As far as I can tell, they're all on second or more. And only a couple are actually one second.

 

It's not always cast time - interrupt. Some of the fast snipes have odd sequencers. Currently, power info in game shows the fast-snipe speeds.
 

27 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

 

I would swear moonbeam is a fraction of a second not between 1.33 and 1.67 seconds.  Only sniper rifle seems to take longer than a second.  But I have not timed it.

 

Moonbeam is one of the fastest ones at 1.33s.

Blazing Bolt is one f the slowest at 1.67s.

 

The powers also have different timing on when the blast goes off, and that can also add to the perception of speed.

Moonbeam hits at frame 28

Sniper Rifle hits at frame 50... ok THAT sounds like a bug because the animation is 45 frames... but might be accurate due to some intricacies on the animation and hit timing... either way, its at the end of the animation and you are only locked down on that animation for 45 frames (1.5s)

[Resolve]

A question, will you be taking a look at powers like Munitions Mastery's LRM missile? Asking for GI Joe related purposes.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Resolve
Typo

[ironjoe]

So to get even more specific on my observations of Shinobi-Iri and Kuji-In Rin. Shinobi-Iri currently provides 84% Run, 82.17 Jump Speed and 417% Jump Height. The proposed Kuji-In Rin provides a blanket +35% Run/Jump/Max Jump. If wanting to keep the same number across the board I would say +84% to Run/Jump/Max Jump would be better. This would keep it roughly to current values with run and jump speed but would lower the max jump. While faster than Sprint+Ninja run, this combination would still be much slower than Super Speed or Super Jump with it not even reaching half those values.

[TotalThunder]

That's a real cool change to Ignite, but it doesn't fix the core problem with the power. 

 

Ignite is a Mag 50 Terrorize. It's functionally useless, and even detrimental, except in niche situations where a lot of stacked enemies get held together.

 

Also could ya'll also pretty please take a look at Flamethrower? Not only is the animation really long, the damage also happens really really late in the animation, so it just all around feels bad to use. Which is a pretty low bar for Assault Rifle, but still.

[Crasical]

27 minutes ago, Resolve said:

A question, will you be taking a look at powers like Munitions Mastery's LRM missile? Asking for GI Joe related purposes.

Seconding this. Munition Mastery in general, really, but LRM needs to get sorted out and make up its mind as to if it's a snipe or not.

[macskull]

9 minutes ago, Crasical said:

Seconding this. Munition Mastery in general, really, but LRM needs to get sorted out and make up its mind as to if it's a snipe or not.

Per @Captain PowerhouseLRM is not a snipe.

[Teirusu]

As much as I don't like to see a nerf to Rune of Protection.  I can see where it's coming from.

 

If you compare it to similar T9 powers, like Strength of Will and One with Shield, with enough recharge, you can have like +40% uptime on Rune verse the locked 33% uptime on those two powers.  And they both have a partial crash on them where Rune has no downsides other then just not being quite as good numbers-wise.  (But still pretty decent)

 

 

On another note, I really dislike the /Nin and /SR Click anti-mez powers.  Since they seem to be going down the route of using the pop-tray more, my wish would be to provide the alternate toggle version of anti-mez protection as a pop-tray power.  Toggling that on would disable the click power and activate the anti-mez within the normal toggles.  Maaaaybe the same thing could be done with Rage. (LOL)  Pop-tray version is a simple non-stacking toggle that disables the click version of the power.  So, the people whom want it can keep their stacking click version and the people whom don't want to deal with the click crashing version can have a toggle instead.  One could dream, hahaha

[Resolve]

5 minutes ago, macskull said:

Per @Captain PowerhouseLRM is not a snipe.

Makes sense to me, it's a long range AOE with a long cast time but it doesn't get any sniper mechanics... though it would be hilarious if it did.

 

It does have a long cast time though, making it potentially relevant.

[Monos King]

Again, taking this opportunity to say it would be great to add +strength to absorb to adrenal booster.

[Crasical]

I just hopped onto my Ninja characters (Katana/Ninj Scrapper, and my DP/Ninj Blaster) and messed around. Pertinent information:

You can put a +stealth IO into the cool new Infiltration power. This gives you boss-avoiding (>54 feet) stealth radius AND non-combat-supressed mobility. It's an extremely cool 'Ninja' power. 

 

If you do this, you can't toggle on Shinobi-Iri or the blaster version, Shinobi.

 

I really liked liked the old version of Shinobi-Iri; I had a stealth IO in it and it let me sneak into a mob and Golden Butterfly or Lotus Drop the spawn and get backstabby crit bonuses, and it let me run and flip around like, well, a ninja. 

 

Now? Kuji-in Rin has half my stealth, and my in-combat mobility, and it takes +res IOs, so I guess I'm going to slot it more heavily and maybe I don't want to take Bo Ryaku anymore and just get my KB resist from IOs.... 

 

and Infiltration is just laughing at me because It does the cool thing that I used to be able to do but I can't use it now because it detoggles Shinobi-Iri.

 

It feels messy and bad, even before factoring in the whole 'I can't detoggle my stealth to deal with hostages anymore' factor that got mentioned upthread.

 

Please let Shinobi-Iri keep its movement bonus. Please give Shinobi (Blaster Version) A movement bonus. It makes you feel like a cool ninja. Having to toggle on sprint or whatever just isn't the same. 

EDIT: Specifically, I know the stealth power conflicting is a 'Will Not Fix' for this patch, so don't do this and leave Ninjutsu in a lurch until the next page.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Crasical

[Captain Powerhouse]

5 minutes ago, Crasical said:

non-combat-supressed mobility. It's an extremely cool 'Ninja' power. 

 

The mobility should suppress in combat.

[Crasical]

It didn't seem to when I tested it a moment ago. Let me try it again.

 

EDIT: Hmm, that time it definitely suppressed. I must have been mistaken.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Crasical

[Wavicle]

21 minutes ago, Crasical said:

I just hopped onto my Ninja characters (Katana/Ninj Scrapper, and my DP/Ninj Blaster) and messed around. Pertinent information:

You can put a +stealth IO into the cool new Infiltration power. This gives you boss-avoiding (>54 feet) stealth radius AND non-combat-supressed mobility. It's an extremely cool 'Ninja' power. 

 

If you do this, you can't toggle on Shinobi-Iri or the blaster version, Shinobi.

 

I really liked liked the old version of Shinobi-Iri; I had a stealth IO in it and it let me sneak into a mob and Golden Butterfly or Lotus Drop the spawn and get backstabby crit bonuses, and it let me run and flip around like, well, a ninja. 

 

Now? Kuji-in Rin has half my stealth, and my in-combat mobility, and it takes +res IOs, so I guess I'm going to slot it more heavily and maybe I don't want to take Bo Ryaku anymore and just get my KB resist from IOs.... 

 

and Infiltration is just laughing at me because It does the cool thing that I used to be able to do but I can't use it now because it detoggles Shinobi-Iri.

 

It feels messy and bad, even before factoring in the whole 'I can't detoggle my stealth to deal with hostages anymore' factor that got mentioned upthread.

 

Please let Shinobi-Iri keep its movement bonus. Please give Shinobi (Blaster Version) A movement bonus. It makes you feel like a cool ninja. Having to toggle on sprint or whatever just isn't the same. 

EDIT: Specifically, I know the stealth power conflicting is a 'Will Not Fix' for this patch, so don't do this and leave Ninjutsu in a lurch until the next page.

 

[siolfir]

7 hours ago, The Godchild said:

Additional Afterthought: ...with all the stacking travel changes, why is this change even on the table? Seriously. Nothing is changing fundamentally about Nin getting the +run/jump speed still, why are things being changed to make 1 cool power totally boring and a core-survival power over-complicated? 

 

Because Stalkers don't get Shinobi-Iri (or Seishinteki Kyoyo or Bo Ryaku for that matter), Hide doesn't provide as much defense while in combat and has no +movement, and moving it to a power that Stalkers do get is a nice step in the right direction after adding so much to it when proliferating it from the AT it was specifically designed for that Stalkers have the absolute worst version of it.

 

Now does putting a Stealth IO in the mez protection click make sense to me? No, but that's someone being an idiot in their slotting. There are plenty of free toggles to put a Stealth IO.
 

 

2 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Sniper Rifle hits at frame 50... ok THAT sounds like a bug because the animation is 45 frames... but might be accurate due to some intricacies on the animation and hit timing... either way, its at the end of the animation and you are only locked down on that animation for 45 frames (1.5s)

Eh, I don't know. Smashing Blow in Kinetic Melee deals damage after the animation completes also, so maybe it was supposed to represent bullet travel time after firing?

[Reiska]

8 hours ago, The Godchild said:

 I'm....not cool with this change tbh, since the stealth IO is a bit of a weird spot giving its either "on/off by the toggle its in" or "2 minutes duration based off a clicky its slotted to"

 

Do people realize that they're adding the option to plug the stealth IO into the MEZ PROTECTION power....that isn't a toggle, its a clicky. So if you put the IO in it, you get the 90 seconds of stealth yes....but you also can't just 'turn it off' like you can atm with it being in Shinobi-iri and that can be a big issue giving how univerally dumb the hostage AI is most times >.>

 

Yes you can just cancel the power to drop stealth forcefully....but that's your mez protection power at the same time...so to lead a hostage out you have to a: give up stealth initially, b: give up your mez protection, and lastly: probably have at least 1-2 ambushes to face on the way out with no protection or having to literally sit n'wait for powers to recharge.

 

Just...no, please...put the travel set slotting part back into Shinobi-Iri or another toggle because this is gonna cause no small amount of headaches...

 

Afterthought: Oh god....I'm even more against this change now that I realize you can also slot res sets in there....you know, the set type with some of the best defensive procs out there. Mez clicky going from IO end redux/rech only slotting, to taking 2 sets...1 of which has alot of options to slot procs with....? Yeahno, please....do NOT push this change through, its gonna cause nightmares for Ninjitsu users if it does x.x

 

Additional Afterthought: ...with all the stacking travel changes, why is this change even on the table? Seriously. Nothing is changing fundamentally about Nin getting the +run/jump speed still, why are things being changed to make 1 cool power totally boring and a core-survival power over-complicated? 

 

 

I think it's because with the new system for how speed boosts stack, they can no longer put a speed boost on Shinobi-Iri because, as it is a toggle power not flagged as a Sprint, it will no longer stack with any true travel power, so putting it on Kuji-In Rin is the only way it can be made to still stack with a true travel power.

[Eva Destruction]

12 hours ago, GM Arcanum said:

 Ignite (All Versions)

• Cast Time reduced from 4s to 2s

So it's still useless but now it can be useless faster.

 

12 hours ago, GM Arcanum said:

 Full Auto (All Versions, including Henchmen)

• Cast Time reduced from 4s (or 6s) to 2.5s (Mercenary Commando actually took a whopping 6s before!)

Awesome, Can we get the target cap increased to 16 like other Blaster t9s have?  Yes, the rule is that cones have a target cap of 10, but it's also a rule that PbAoEs have a target cap of 10, and most nukes are PbAoEs with a target cap of 16, so.  I wouldn't mind the cone being a bit wider either.

[Gigaburger]

8 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

 

Please do not make upgrades automatic. Upgrading resummons in combat is part of the mastermind experience and should not be changed. 

Believe it or not they've spoken in discord that they will likely never make upgrades automatic, for the simple fact that they want to promote keeping pets alive instead of making them disposable. We are likely to see more changes to balance out these reduced cooldowns.

[Goody]

I am baffled by the amount of people who don't already use adrenal booster or unleash, a lot of my specs use one or the other, mostly adrenal.

 

 

I have never once used rune and will continue to do so, this change has not made that power any less appealing for me though.

[macskull]

Just now, Goody said:

I am baffled by the amount of people who don't already use adrenal booster or unleash, a lot of my specs use one or the other, mostly adrenal.

I think the primary reason they're not used more is because they're buried 3 picks deep in pools that are otherwise pretty lackluster, and the opportunity cost of having to lose one of Speed/Leaping/Leadership/Fighting isn't worth those picks.