Lore question: robots

[Techwright]

I've got a lore question.  I don't think the question will need spoilers.  Though the answers might.

 

When fighting various factions that use robots, notably Sky Raiders, Council, and Fifth Column, I occasionally see a robot in charge and/or referred to with a rank and name (Lt. Smith, etc.).  I've seen this in both missions and radio missions.

 

The question:  Is there anything in revealed lore to explain why this is?  Have these groups tapped into some freaky science that allows them to transfer the memories and skills of fallen leaders into the robots?  Are they leaders virtually commanding through a command base connection to the robot?  Other explanation?

 

EDIT: And if there is a lore explanation, is it specific to one group?  Meaning there might be possibly multiple explanations, each unique to a group.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Techwright

[aethereal]

I think it's just a sort of mistake.  Radio missions choose a random boss-class enemy from the appropriate faction and apply a name from a list of names to it.

 

I don't think that we ever see a robot from any of those factions as a character with personality or any impression of true sentience at points in the game that are actually authored, rather than procedurally generated.

[merrypessimist]

27 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

I don't think that we ever see a robot from any of those factions as a character with personality or any impression of true sentience at points in the game that are actually authored, rather than procedurally generated.

 

What about the knockoff-Citadel from his task force?

[Miss Magical]

4 hours ago, Techwright said:

When fighting various factions that use robots, notably Sky Raiders, Council, and Fifth Column, I occasionally see a robot in charge and/or referred to with a rank and name (Lt. Smith, etc.).  I've seen this in both missions and radio missions.

 

 

It's clearly someone remote-controlling the thing from a sunny beach in the Maldives. What, you people still put on your costumes to do villainy?

[tidge]

The Malta faction has an explicitly different sort of thing going on with their robots, which are exposed during a blue-side level 45-50 arc "A Titan Named Joe".

 

Nemesis automata (and Jaegers) are explicitly 'clockworks'.

 

In the early days of Live, I remember being creeped out by 5th Column Steel Valkyries on the streets of Founders Falls  having conversations that didn't sound like the sort of things robots would being talking about. I always expected them to be revealed as "brains in jars".

 

[Techwright]

7 minutes ago, tidge said:

The Malta faction has an explicitly different sort of thing going on with their robots, which are exposed during a blue-side level 45-50 arc "A Titan Named Joe".

 

Nemesis automata (and Jaegers) are explicitly 'clockworks'.

 

In the early days of Live, I remember being creeped out by 5th Column Steel Valkyries on the streets of Founders Falls  having conversations that didn't sound like the sort of things robots would being talking about. I always expected them to be revealed as "brains in jars".

 

Nemesis have their own way of utilizing fallen warriors.

 

I'd not really considered Malta in the mix.  I'll have to go see that.  It's Crimson's arc, is it not?  I've not done his stuff since being back in the game.

 

5th Column, Council, and Sky Raiders were all ones that I suspected were using hard drives with memory imprints of fallen soldiers.  I'd not really considered the "brain in jars" view, though I suppose it would work.  If the Council would force their soldiers into existing as other horrors, why not this?

[MrBadman]

Wait, You're telling me there's some sort of machine intelligence that hops bodies and call itself "Smith"?

That seems highly....inevetable...that we'd run into something like that in this giant....matrix of a world.

[tidge]

10 hours ago, Techwright said:

Nemesis have their own way of utilizing fallen warriors.

 

I enjoyed the original batch of Nemesis arcs (back when the game was capped at level 40), and there are some 40-50 (and 50+) Nemesis missions I enjoy... I never glommed onto the direction Lord Nemesis took in the game's lore. Bluntly: I was expecting to see more in-mission explanation of the jaegers and warhulks. As much fun as those Shadow Shard Nemesis base maps are, I also could never bring myself to believe that Lord Nemesis could actually recruit enough humans to staff his missions.

[Greycat]

I think it's a mix of "The mission picked something of that rank and it happened to be a robot" and some group-specific things (that one Orb ... is it in the main goldside arcs or FIrst Ward?)

 

If it's in a paper mission, I just assume RNG, most of the time.

[Take One]

20 hours ago, Techwright said:

Is there anything in revealed lore to explain why this is? 

 

Short answer: yes.

 

Long answer: Council/5th Column robots have artificial intelligence and are capable of independent thought. There's a whole arc of a robot uprising in their ranks, where they try to break free and form their own group. Sky Raider jumpbots have the tactical knowledge of fallen Sky Raider officers stored in their memory cores. This last part might just be me remembering some ancient head-canon though, since I can no longer find out where this information came from by checking the wiki.

 

 

[srmalloy]

21 hours ago, Techwright said:

I'd not really considered the "brain in jars" view, though I suppose it would work.  If the Council would force their soldiers into existing as other horrors, why not this?

Given that the design predated the split from the 5th Column (Steel Valkyries), it wouldn't be original with the Council.

[GastlyGibus]

On 9/12/2021 at 9:25 PM, tidge said:

The Malta faction has an explicitly different sort of thing going on with their robots, which are exposed during a blue-side level 45-50 arc "A Titan Named Joe".

Can you elaborate on this point? I've searched through Ouroboros and the HC wiki and cannot find any arc by this name. I'd love to know more about Malta, but as far as I'm aware, this arc doesn't exist, at least under that name.

[tidge]

Here is the (classic) link: https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Crimson#Rescue_Candice_Boxer_from_the_Malta_Group

[SuggestorK]

On 9/12/2021 at 10:13 PM, Techwright said:

I've got a lore question.  I don't think the question will need spoilers.  Though the answers might.

 

When fighting various factions that use robots, notably Sky Raiders, Council, and Fifth Column, I occasionally see a robot in charge and/or referred to with a rank and name (Lt. Smith, etc.).  I've seen this in both missions and radio missions.

 

The question:  Is there anything in revealed lore to explain why this is?  Have these groups tapped into some freaky science that allows them to transfer the memories and skills of fallen leaders into the robots?  Are they leaders virtually commanding through a command base connection to the robot?  Other explanation?

 

EDIT: And if there is a lore explanation, is it specific to one group?  Meaning there might be possibly multiple explanations, each unique to a group.

 

Don't want to spoiler much , there is a Storyarc (Striga?) in which the council Zanith Mech's pretty much go Skynet.

 

Since originally the Council was 5th Column, they probably are linked, the Name-Change to council and very much later re-adding of 5th Column made it a bit a mess.

 

 

[SuggestorK]

And clockwork (spoiler alert) they dont act on themselves, this goes for the regular clockwork of course not for the praetorian.

Spoiler

they are just puppets with strings

 

[Vanden]

11 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:

Can you elaborate on this point? I've searched through Ouroboros and the HC wiki and cannot find any arc by this name. I'd love to know more about Malta, but as far as I'm aware, this arc doesn't exist, at least under that name

 

Its not a true arc, it’s one of those chained mission sets where completing the mission automatically gets you the next one, without returning to the contact, so it wouldn’t be in Ouro.

[TheZag]

For the council at least,  i have a hard time believing that any of them have intelligence.  When i run into a lvl 26 robot being the boss of a lvl 42 mission i start to question their command decisions.

[Latex]

Some lore stuff on Praetorian Clockwork; http://web.archive.org/web/20111028072434/http://goingrogue.na.cityofheroes.com/en/game-info/enemy-groups/praetorian-clockwork.html

[GastlyGibus]

On 9/12/2021 at 4:13 PM, Techwright said:

I've got a lore question.  I don't think the question will need spoilers.  Though the answers might.

 

When fighting various factions that use robots, notably Sky Raiders, Council, and Fifth Column, I occasionally see a robot in charge and/or referred to with a rank and name (Lt. Smith, etc.).  I've seen this in both missions and radio missions.

 

The question:  Is there anything in revealed lore to explain why this is?  Have these groups tapped into some freaky science that allows them to transfer the memories and skills of fallen leaders into the robots?  Are they leaders virtually commanding through a command base connection to the robot?  Other explanation?

 

EDIT: And if there is a lore explanation, is it specific to one group?  Meaning there might be possibly multiple explanations, each unique to a group.

On to the actual topic, I'm afraid the answer isn't quite so interesting or lore based, but rather mechanic based. The game just picks enemies at random to fill roles. If the mission is level 24, and you're fighting the Council, and the objective is a boss named, say, Archon Fancypants, the game just says "Okay, pick a random Council boss-class enemy for level 24." Sometimes that enemy will correctly be a Council Archon, but since it's random, it could also be a Mk II Zenith Warcry robot. Sometimes the missions are hard-coded to have a specific boss, but in the case of radios and certain stock contact missions that aren't part of a story arc, it just picks enemies at random.

This is how you sometimes end up with robots having dialogue that is peculiar and very un-robotic. I recall a mission dealing with Council Vampyri, and a Zenith Hoverbot patrolling the mission said something along the lines of "The new Vampyri are impressive. I hope to someday join their ranks."

So, sadly, it's usually not anything lore-related or intentional. It's just the game picking enemies at random and giving them a name. Spawn a random Council boss, or Sky Raider, give them a name like Captain Cornholio, and slap them in a mission. 

[Chrono-Bot]

There was a jumpbot speaking in robospeak in charge of a Sky Raider mission I was on yesterday! It's uhhh it's that arc where the cops want the mediporters but it turns out to be a Sky Raider plot that

Spoiler

turns out to be a Malta plot.

Anyway, it was clearly in charge and leading the mission and Speaking Not Human.

[Li_Sensei]

On 9/13/2021 at 2:37 AM, Techwright said:

I'd not really considered Malta in the mix.  I'll have to go see that.  It's Crimson's arc, is it not?  I've not done his stuff since being back in the game.

 

Yes it's Crimson, but it's not in his major arc, it's a standalone 'mini arc' of two or three missions.

 

Malta are one of those groups like mid to late 30's CoT, that are pretty easy to cope with solo but rapidly become a nightmare with scaling team size (whether actual or virtual via difficulty settings).  The main issue with Crimson is shared with a lot of Issue 1 contacts, the main arc is long, involved, and by more current tastes has a lot of filler that could be edited out to make the pacing tighter.  But historically you needed long arcs, to get the mob counts to get the xp you needed for the 45-50 push.  Waffling now, time to hit submit.

[Aurora_Girl]

On 9/14/2021 at 11:45 AM, GastlyGibus said:

On to the actual topic, I'm afraid the answer isn't quite so interesting or lore based, but rather mechanic based. The game just picks enemies at random to fill roles. If the mission is level 24, and you're fighting the Council, and the objective is a boss named, say, Archon Fancypants, the game just says "Okay, pick a random Council boss-class enemy for level 24." Sometimes that enemy will correctly be a Council Archon, but since it's random, it could also be a Mk II Zenith Warcry robot. Sometimes the missions are hard-coded to have a specific boss, but in the case of radios and certain stock contact missions that aren't part of a story arc, it just picks enemies at random.

This is how you sometimes end up with robots having dialogue that is peculiar and very un-robotic. I recall a mission dealing with Council Vampyri, and a Zenith Hoverbot patrolling the mission said something along the lines of "The new Vampyri are impressive. I hope to someday join their ranks."

So, sadly, it's usually not anything lore-related or intentional. It's just the game picking enemies at random and giving them a name. Spawn a random Council boss, or Sky Raider, give them a name like Captain Cornholio, and slap them in a mission. 

Is it bad that now I want Castillo's new favorite lieutenant to be Captain Cornholio? Lucius Cornholio. 

[GraspingVileTerror]

Going to try to remember off the top of my head, so "spoilers" if I get any of these correct, but . . . 

 

Vahzilok = zombots.  Extremely rudimentary AI, but apparently able to play back recorded audio or mimic human speech?

Bastion/Citadel and Luminary = AI modelled after human brain scans.

5th Column/Council (Rogue) Robots = older models are Vandal's attempt to create AI from scratch, later models use Bastion/Citadel's stolen AI code.

Sky Raiders = rudimentary AI but all machines have tele-operation features so a commander can hotseat and override the AI.

Malta = drones/turrets have limited AI, but mechs house human brains.

Nemesis = incredibly complex and nigh-microscopic clockwork brains which simulate AI and even personality and emotion.  More advanced versions are reserved for important dopplegangers and Fake Nemeses, while easier-to-mass-produce versions with limited capacities are used in the T.P.S. Report Automatons and Jaegers.   Warhulks appear to have pilots, but I'm not certain on the details.

Primal Clockwork = not actually robots.

Praetorian Clockwork = what @Latex said, most likely.  I never really looked in to them.

Warworks = see above.

Battle Orbs = almost assuredly just robots.

Arachnos = unclear.  They're not beyond using human body parts in otherwise mechanical forces (see Tarantula Programme), but Arachnobots, Drones, and Spiderlings seem to be purely mechanical?

Rikti = drones are machines.  The name and descriptions of the Heavy Assault Suits imply there's a pilot inside.

Vanguard H.V.A.S. = also implied to be a suit, which suggests there's a pilot inside.  Probably not the case for the Mini-H.V.A.S. vanity pet, though, but maybe there's a fairy piloting that?

Longbow Cataphract and Mech = implied to be automatons (ie:  Robots with limited AI).

Paragon Police Department = combination of robotics and hazard suits, depending on the level range.

Turrets = probably just simple targeting subroutines, but maybe some factions shove human brains in there or use teleoperations?

Crey = no robots near as I've ever seen, which is a bit odd.  Mainly just clones and people in hazard suits, by all accounts.

Gold Brickers = guys with golden face paint, and definitely not robots.

 

I think that about sums it up for any group with either robots or things-that-could-be-mistaken-for-robots.

Did I miss any?

[Ironblade]

3 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

Nemesis = incredibly complex and nigh-microscopic clockwork brains which simulate AI and even personality and emotion.  More advanced versions are reserved for important dopplegangers and Fake Nemeses, while easier-to-mass-produce versions with limited capacities are used in the T.P.S. Report Automatons and Jaegers.   Warhulks appear to have pilots, but I'm not certain on the details.

The hint text on the badge for defeating Warhulks says: "Seek and destroy the engines of war that Nemesis uses to give second life to his fallen soldiers."

So Nemesis troops who are too badly wounded apparently end up in Warhulks.

[srmalloy]

23 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

Warhulks appear to have pilots, but I'm not certain on the details.

There is In Anton Sampson's arc "Mass Duplicity", you defeat Lance Sergeant Lemleigh in an early mission; he appears later in the arc as a Warhulk and explicitly describes himself as having been put into the pod after you'd defeated him in order that he could continue serving Lord Nemesis.