Focused Feedback: Badges

[cinder]

9 hours ago, lemming said:

I thought about that too, but since it takes development time to make those exploration tip missions, I'm guessing those were not done.  (And I don't see anything in the patch notes)

 

I just found Darkness Unleashed based on the clue that Cobalt gave.

Post a screenshot of Darkness Unleashed? Ive been looking in the Northwest mountains for over an hour lol

 

[lemming]

Coordinates in spoiler:

 

Spoiler

-170.0, 192.3, 1489.8

 

I still lack Vision.

[lemming]

15 hours ago, lemming said:

Coordinates in spoiler:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

-170.0, 192.3, 1489.8

 

I still lack Vision.

So far, have uncovered the entire map manually and it's certainly possible I've missed being over a surface within range of the badge, still no "Vision of Ambition"

And based on while I'm doing another zig zag across a various portion, I often see someone asking in broadcast if anyone else has found it.

Can someone confirm that they have found it?

[AboveTheChemist]

1 hour ago, lemming said:

Can someone confirm that they have found it?

Yes, I checked all the Cimerora exploration badges on Brainstorm and they are all where they should be.

[lemming]

Got it! 

[LunaChic]

Between two trees  and minotaur's you will find the Darkness unleashed badge.

[Faultline]

 

[LunaChic]

location: -1751.1  374.1  1352.3 Visions of Ambition 

Edited November 8, 2021 by LunaChic

[fitzsimmons]

On 11/6/2021 at 10:43 AM, KeepDistance said:

I really hate the name of this badge. Are we first graders?

 

I am, yes.

[Burnt Umber]

Overall I really welcome most of the new badges as well as the corrections/changes to old ones.

 

That said I have a few criticisms:

 

1.  I think the placement of "Visions of Ambition" might be better if it were in the center of the rampart tower.  It took me many rounds of hovering through that area before I stumbled upon the badge by chance.  Although that's sort of the spirit of exploration badges, putting in the center of the rampart tower would make it a little easier to spot for those seeking it out.

 

2. I would prefer if "Ripple Raider" did not require "no deaths."  As it stands, the badge already requires a team to face optional AVs, so it would be nice for the badge to recognize the extra effort without needing to make sure no one is defeated.

 

3.  "Unfriendly Fire" is a bit too complex for a badge.  It requires proper timing and execution as well as necessitating having a controller, or more likely, a dominator with one of a particular powerset to pull off.  Although there are badges similar to a certain degree in the former requirement, such as "Avatar Assassin," I can't think of a single badge that requires specific team makeups, which in turn takes away from some of the casual play possible.  If a confuse mechanic were in that mission part or the Brick Juggernauts' self-destruct targeted players and critters alike, I would feel differently.

 

4.  I am not keen to have most of the badges for the Aeon Task Force locked behind the new "Hard Mode."  To me, it makes "Hard Mode" far less optional then it was advertised:  to the extent that people would like to avoid what should be a completely optional part of the game, the badge requirements for "Unfriendly Fire," "Power Overwhelming," and "Can't Touch This" all muddy that distinction.

 

5.  I am also not keen to have the legacy "Master of _" badges being given harsher restrictions.  I don't see "Master" runs of such taskforces regularly, so I would prefer for there not to be new barriers to acquisition beyond what already is there.

 

But, again, I'm overall very happy for the new shiny badges.

[Baney]

Please remove the "No Deaths" requirement from master badges. That requirement is ablest and gatekeeper status at best.

"No deaths" is not fun, especially those of us have done them dozens or even hundred of times and those of us who help our community members trying to get the badges collected. They turn into one or two team members doing the carry and preventing the rest of the team even attempting to help, simply for fear of dying and screwing up the whole run.

[dnomad333]

3 hours ago, Baney said:

Please remove the "No Deaths" requirement from master badges. That requirement is ablest and gatekeeper status at best.

"No deaths" is not fun, especially those of us have done them dozens or even hundred of times and those of us who help our community members trying to get the badges collected. They turn into one or two team members doing the carry and preventing the rest of the team even attempting to help, simply for fear of dying and screwing up the whole run.

I have spent a while thinking on how best to reply to this and other posts about the 'No Deaths' requirement, but in the end and after much thought, I find myself agreeing most with the statement. 
 

3 hours ago, Baney said:

"No deaths" is not fun

I agree, these style badges should be a challenge, but not to the point of exclusion. Most badges can be achieved through hard work, I find "Mast of" badges to be nothing more than luck most of the time, compared to skill. And for most players, that is "Not fun".

[Cobalt Arachne]

14 hours ago, Vigilant Vergil said:

3.  "Unfriendly Fire" is a bit too complex for a badge.  It requires proper timing and execution as well as necessitating having a controller, or more likely, a dominator with one of a particular powerset to pull off.  Although there are badges similar to a certain degree in the former requirement, such as "Avatar Assassin," I can't think of a single badge that requires specific team makeups, which in turn takes away from some of the casual play possible.  If a confuse mechanic were in that mission part or the Brick Juggernauts' self-destruct targeted players and critters alike, I would feel differently.

The designed goal was that anybody who has the Rogue Alignment power can confuse the target and achieve the badge, as the content is red side. However, per feedback, we'll be adding a special +confuse component to the Golden Throwing Wrench temp power rewarded for completion of the ASF that can be used to confuse them specifically.
 

14 hours ago, Vigilant Vergil said:

4.  I am not keen to have most of the badges for the Aeon Task Force locked behind the new "Hard Mode."  To me, it makes "Hard Mode" far less optional then it was advertised:  to the extent that people would like to avoid what should be a completely optional part of the game, the badge requirements for "Unfriendly Fire," "Power Overwhelming," and "Can't Touch This" all muddy that distinction.

Badges are always optional content; Anybody trying to collect all the badges already requires the player to touch all types of content, whether they enjoy it or not, such as PvP. Hard mode is no exception to that precedent that has existed almost as long as the game has. If you want every badge, expect to do every type of content that exists.

[Ruin Mage]

6 hours ago, Baney said:

Please remove the "No Deaths" requirement from master badges. That requirement is ablest and gatekeeper status at best.

"No deaths" is not fun, especially those of us have done them dozens or even hundred of times and those of us who help our community members trying to get the badges collected. They turn into one or two team members doing the carry and preventing the rest of the team even attempting to help, simply for fear of dying and screwing up the whole run.

I have a hard disagreement with this.

Chiefly is that these are optional challenge badges from a specific set of rules. Challenges often have rules to them to be recognized. No deaths, while tough for average joes, is nothing that hasn't been seen in MMO design before. I had a debate about this elsewhere, but removing the no deaths part on the subjective nature of fun is a slippery slope. We have two Master of badge styles. The first is seen in Imperious, Gray, Liberty, Kahn/Cudda, and Recluse. This is the no deaths, no temp powers (and now no Incarnates as of P3) style. The new style is challenge badges (seen in iTrials, TinPex, and now the ASF) - giving two very different ways to get a Master of badge.

The No Deaths part has been a staple of the first set and shouldn't go away. If you feel that you cannot go a run without dying, then you do not need the badge. The badge subset is meant to promote teamwork and coordination. Sure, it also promotes carefully planning a team out to cover all bases for a more effecient run. This is not gatekeeping or ablest - the latter of which is a baffling claim. No one in their right mind is going to use the Master of badges as a means to gatekeep someone. This isn't like WoW where these runs are timed ala Mythic+ or that an achievment is key to joining an LFG raid.

In most runs, its not one or two members carrying. A well rounded Master of team will have support, hopefully some lockdown, and a boatload of damage + a tanker. Unlike the ASF, most Master of badges don't flood you with so many enemies that taunt becomes ineffective. Most enemy groups are also already figured out or covered. The biggest problems will be a Master of that has psionic or toxic, I feel. Maybe also Fire, but I don't pay 100% attention.

The "worst" offenders for Master of failures, I feel, are Liberty & Recluse + Gray. But those you do need to coordinate and play carefully. This is not gatekeeping, ablest, or anything elite - which is what I saw as an argument elsewhere. Team efforts are exactly what Task Forces are meant to be, and the subset of badges even more so. If someone is upset they didn't get the badge? They can try try and try again. It's not a limited time badge, and it isn't one that people are using to look down on others.

If we wanted to talk about fun, this opens the slippery slope of certain badges like the Defeat badges using old style versus new style. I loathe the old style where its like 200 bosses, and love the new style of points. However, just because that's my view doesn't mean all the old style badges need to change. This applies here as well - just because it's not fun to you does not mean it needs to be uprooted to make the game easier.

Yes, there is a factor of RNG & luck but that too remains a staple of MMORPG design. It sucks if a Master of run fails, but it's not the end of the world. You can reform and try again - learning lessons along the way. Maybe a run failed because you split up. Maybe the tank lost control of an ambush because people are going too fast. These are things that can be helped by the team playing like a team.

 

14 hours ago, Vigilant Vergil said:

5.  I am also not keen to have the legacy "Master of _" badges being given harsher restrictions.  I don't see "Master" runs of such taskforces regularly, so I would prefer for there not to be new barriers to acquisition beyond what already is there.

Which restrictions? The no Incarnates part is the only new one, and that's better discussed in the ADO/Challenge mode thread. However, I am on the same mindset that adding the No Incarnates to the old Master of is a very sketchy move.

 

 

14 hours ago, Vigilant Vergil said:

4.  I am not keen to have most of the badges for the Aeon Task Force locked behind the new "Hard Mode."  To me, it makes "Hard Mode" far less optional then it was advertised:  to the extent that people would like to avoid what should be a completely optional part of the game, the badge requirements for "Unfriendly Fire," "Power Overwhelming," and "Can't Touch This" all muddy that distinction.

Luckily, Malicious is the barest bones of difficulties that are relatively easy unless you have a team of super-gimped builds. You may still need to do work for these badges - something that isn't new - but strategizing for badges is not a heinous thing. Look at the iTrials or TinPex for example. This is nothing new, but the idea of requiring specific optional difficulties is new. This is not a bad thing, and as Cobalt said these badges are optional. Want to get them? You have to do something to get them.

It is the same as the master of - badges with the other ruleset.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Shadeknight

[EmperorSteele]

When you say "ableist", do you mean from an in-game perspective, or a real life one?

 

Cuz if it's in-game, then "not really". You don't need a crazy incarnate IO'd build, you just need to pay attention to what's going on instead of leeroying all the mobs.

 

If you mean from a real life perspective, well, ALL video games, by their very nature of being an interactive medium, are abelist. You need to be able to see (and sometimes hear) what's going on, be able to know what to do with the information provided, then be able to execute by manipulating the controls (usually with your hands). So calling master badges ableist feel really disingenuous.

 

If you want to talk badges that are specifically problematic in that regard, then the convo pretty much begins and ends with the ski slopes, as those take actual reaction time and ability to make subtle movements and micro corrections. Master badges just require mindfulness (and teammates who also have situational awareness. This is usually the hard part!), which can be more boring than difficult.

 

That said, if you legit have problems getting these and are on excel, shoot me a PM and we'll get a posse together and bang 'em out for ya 😃

Edited November 11, 2021 by EmperorSteele
Typo

[Burnt Umber]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

Badges are always optional content; Anybody trying to collect all the badges already requires the player to touch all types of content, whether they enjoy it or not, such as PvP. Hard mode is no exception to that precedent that has existed almost as long as the game has. If you want every badge, expect to do every type of content that exists.

 

Fair enough.  I already have to make exceptions to certain badges for similar reasons on my badging characters, so I can accept that.  However, I would wish that future badges were as casually obtainable as a vast majority of them are.

 

My main issue is that I feel as though the new badges required for a Master run of the Aeon Strike Force feel as if "Really Hard Way" were a necessary element of getting a Master Run of the Magisterium incarnate trial.  To me, at least, the "Master of" badges for most of the incarnate trials (i.e., except those for Keyes) were great ways to incentivize and reward players for better playing of a trial through teamwork or cooperation. I liked that a lot more than the legacy "Master of" badges that were essentially rewards for how optimized the team and its players are.  In contradistinction to, say, the PvP badges that do not need optimization, the Hard Mode badges do feel like they regress back to measurements of character optimization.

 

2 hours ago, Shadeknight said:

Luckily, Malicious is the barest bones of difficulties that are relatively easy unless you have a team of super-gimped builds. You may still need to do work for these badges - something that isn't new - but strategizing for badges is not a heinous thing. Look at the iTrials or TinPex for example. This is nothing new, but the idea of requiring specific optional difficulties is new. This is not a bad thing, and as Cobalt said these badges are optional. Want to get them? You have to do something to get them.

It is the same as the master of - badges with the other ruleset.

 

I'm not going to comment on the glibness of your post.  My issue is not the need to strategize or engage in teamwork; my issue is, as you say, "requiring specific optional difficulties."  I think such requirements are a bad thing.  To be frank, when I tried "Relentless," it was a miserable slog, and although I have not yet tried the lower levels of Hard Mode, I am skeptical they would be relatively less awful.  As such, I don't want a part of the game I enjoy - namely badge hunting - to be locked behind doing miserable activities.  And, unlike PvP badges, the badges in question require me to earnestly engage with a portion of the game I do not believe I will ever come to enjoy:  I don't need a specialized PvP build and to haunt Recluse's Victory or the Arena to get all of the PvP badges; I only need to play the game normally and coordinate with a few other players to get them.

[Cobalt Arachne]

26 minutes ago, Vigilant Vergil said:

My main issue is that I feel as though the new badges required for a Master run of the Aeon Strike Force feel as if "Really Hard Way" were a necessary element of getting a Master Run of the Magisterium incarnate trial.

I would give try Malicious difficulty (the second level, the minimum required to earn all the badges) a try, it is nowhere near the ballpark of difficulty of Really Hard Way, in any capacity.

It is really very quite reasonable, despite the name.

Malicious difficulty can be played at +0, at any team size, and the only difference is that the enemies are given the additional powers needed to complete the badge challenges. Enemies do not get the additional stats and you have no restrictions. This is the difficulty to choose if you want the badges.

[Burnt Umber]

6 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

I would give try Malicious difficulty (the second level, the minimum required to earn all the badges) a try, it is nowhere near the ballpark of difficulty of Really Hard Way, in any capacity.

It is really very quite reasonable, despite the name.

Malicious difficulty can be played at +0, at any team size, and the only difference is that the enemies are given the additional powers needed to complete the badge challenges. Enemies do not get the additional stats and you have no restrictions. This is the difficulty to choose if you want the badges.

 

Thanks for the reply and the advice.  I shall try that out.  My initial exposure to Hard Mode was at Relentless, which did not leave a good impression (I shan't derail on why), hence my feedback on thew badges.  I apologize if I am a bit of a downer on them.  It is good to know that the badges are more than achievable.

[Baney]

10 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

When you say "ableist", do you mean from an in-game perspective, or a real life one?

 

Cuz if it's in-game, then "not really". You don't need a crazy incarnate IO'd build, you just need to pay attention to what's going on instead of leeroying all the mobs.

 

If you mean from a real life perspective, well, ALL video games, by their very nature of being an interactive medium, are abelist. You need to be able to see (and sometimes hear) what's going on, be able to know what to do with the information provided, then be able to execute by manipulating the controls (usually with your hands). So calling master badges ableist feel really disingenuous.

 

If you want to talk badges that are specifically problematic in that regard, then the convo pretty much begins and ends with the ski slopes, as those take actual reaction time and ability to make subtle movements and micro corrections. Master badges just require mindfulness (and teammates who also have situational awareness. This is usually the hard part!), which can be more boring than difficult.

 

That said, if you legit have problems getting these and are on excel, shoot me a PM and we'll get a posse together and bang 'em out for ya 😃

 

I greatly appreciate that offer of help! Fortunately, I have all the current badges and a great group of people to run with in Everlasting.
But thank you anyway!

[Faultline]

18 hours ago, Shadeknight said:

I am on the same mindset that adding the No Incarnates to the old Master of is a very sketchy move.

 

You can directly blame me for this one. I absolutely hate how much Incarnate powers trivialized the Master of badges for the Task Forces created before Incarnates were a thing. I see this as a long-overdue course correction to restore those badges to a level of difficulty closer to what they originally had.

[Ruin Mage]

That's fine. I can understand why in retrospect.

[Draeth Darkstar]

20 hours ago, Faultline said:

 

You can directly blame me for this one. I absolutely hate how much Incarnate powers trivialized the Master of badges for the Task Forces created before Incarnates were a thing. I see this as a long-overdue course correction to restore those badges to a level of difficulty closer to what they originally had.

 

I think it would make more sense to add new badges that are, for lack of a better working title, Grandmaster of... for those old TFs with the requirements of Master + No Incarnates.

 

They've been the way they are now with Incarnate powers for far longer than they were ever available before Incarnates and a lot of the people who play the game now never knew it any other way. It really doesn't seem fair to suddenly, drastically increase the difficulty of getting those badges that have, as far as Homecoming is concerned, always been that way.

[Aurora_Girl]

16 hours ago, Draeth Darkstar said:

 

I think it would make more sense to add new badges that are, for lack of a better working title, Grandmaster of... for those old TFs with the requirements of Master + No Incarnates.

 

They've been the way they are now with Incarnate powers for far longer than they were ever available before Incarnates and a lot of the people who play the game now never knew it any other way. It really doesn't seem fair to suddenly, drastically increase the difficulty of getting those badges that have, as far as Homecoming is concerned, always been that way.

 

Consider me in this camp too. You cheapen those who already have the badges, by not implementing new ones for the new requirement. "Grand Master of" is the right thing to do here. 

[Voltor]

On 11/6/2021 at 2:15 AM, ZiggyBardust said:

 

Cortex

Doc Buzzsaw*

Newt

Malady

Grey Matter

Salamander

Pathogen

Dr. Meinst*

Dr. Vahzilok*

 

If you don't run the arc, then you can plumb the sewers for them*.

 

*Not found in the sewers.

 

Been going through the sewers, have located the targets.   Went back, some were not spawning in their locations until room was cleared out a bit and allowed to respawn, may need to be done a couple of times.  Presuming this is WAI.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Voltor

[Apparition]

A "compromise" idea for the Master badges (not that I think it's needed), would be to allow the Alpha Incarnate but disable all of the other Incarnates if possible?  Just throwing that out there.  Again, I think it's fine as is on beta, but I'm seeing a lot of grumbling.