How many performance shifters are too many?

[subbacultchas]

Got 3 slots left on the current build. Trying to decide between 3 Impervious +psi res, and the 3 Power Transfer +heals. Tough call between ~ 50 psi res, and more passive regen on top of rooted.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, subbacultchas said:

Now there's an idea. How are the Power Transfers working out? I really considered one or two in the build.

I see them constantly, kinda like the floaters on Blaster heal/absorb powers. So definitely doing something.

[subbacultchas]

Sounds good in theory at least. If I did the math right, it's about .25% hp/sec per proc. 4 of them is nothing to scoff at in a tanker. I'm thinking 3 in scrapper sounds good too, comes out to about 18 hp/sec on average. I'm sold.

[Koopak]

3 hours ago, subbacultchas said:

Now there's an idea. How are the Power Transfers working out? I really considered one or two in the build.

 

They work out to be 3.3465 hp/s when slotted in an auto or toggle power, which is equivalent to roughly ~33% regeneration, very good, some of the best hp/s you can get out of enhancements let alone one.

As for Performance Shifters, i consider physical perfections damn near a dead power as it is, it just gives so little. Performance shifters work out to 0.25 end/s at 100% max end, obviously accolades, and +max end sets will increase this, but 4 of them is equal to 1 end/s+ so equal to about 60% recovery. For context that's 4.8x the recovery granted by Physical Perfection and 2.4x the recovery granted by Stamina before slotting.

This is all before Panacea, Miracal, and Numina's, your total there is going to be the equivalent of 107.5% recovery in procs alone, of which 82.5% of which will be in ticking procs (Performance Shifter and Panacea) which will be unaffected by -recovery. Thats... just alot of end when you add in your powers. Your grand total at the end of this all is likely to be in the 250-300% range which you are going to have to really try to use all of.

Keep in mind, any time your recovery ticks, and your endurance is full, that's lost power. Either slots that could have increased your durability or damage, or a more expensive power you could have used. As some have said the goal is to have just enough recovery you never run out, but I think that is a little misleading. The goal is to have just enough recovery that you START each fight at full endurance. This means its okay to run out, as long as its at the end of a fight. This is one of the reason end recovery tools like Fire Aura's consume are so good, it gives you a stronger control of your blue bar and lets you run aggressive builds that just need to last long enough to hit your end recovery tool again.

if you ever need a cheat sheet, check this useful post

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Koopak

[Koopak]

12 minutes ago, subbacultchas said:

Sounds good in theory at least. If I did the math right, it's about .25% hp/sec per proc. 4 of them is nothing to scoff at in a tanker. I'm thinking 3 in scrapper sounds good too, comes out to about 18 hp/sec on average. I'm sold.

oh and sorry for the double post but this can be misleading. Power Transfer procs scale with your AT's base HP, not your actual Max, so dont expect it to get stronger with Max HP, this is why my previous post gives the 33% regen value as a ballpark number, its based on a build i know has alot of +hp

[Bopper]

5 hours ago, BrandX said:

Does the performance shifter in Geode work all the time or only when you use Geode?

 

It's a toggle, so it will have a chance to proc when you activate it then another chance to proc every 10s after.

 

11 hours ago, Sovera said:

You need exactly as much as needed to keep your blue bar full. Now someone like Bopper is able to look at a build, calculate endurance costs, calculate the ST rotation, then make you that esoteric math that is an alphabet soup and tell you precisely how much endurance you'd need for a three minute fight and how endurance you'd be in deficit or have extra.

 

(That's because he's a nerrrrrrrrrrrd).

Personally, I hate calculating things in units of endurance per second. I much rather work in units of endurance per minute as it directly translates to recovery.

 

Performance Shifter is a 1.5 PPM of 10% Max Endurance. So on average that is 15% Max Endurance per minute which is equivalent to having 15% recovery. So folks should interpret slotting a PS proc in an auto power as granting your build 15% recovery.

 

In this case, 3 procs is adding 45% recovery which is significant. Throw in Panacea's 3PPM of 7.5% Max Endurance (22.5% Recovery equivalent),  and you're looking at 67.5% recovery in your build. This is something not shown in mids nor combat attributes, so it's worth keeping in mind when evaluating your build.

 

When Mids/combat attributes shows you your average endurance recovery in units of end/sec, you will want to factor in these procs as: Max End x 0.675 / 60s. Assuming you have accolades, that might look like: 110 x 0.675 / 60 = +1.2375 end/sec

[Vanden]

11 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Personally, I hate calculating things in units of endurance per second. I much rather work in units of endurance per minute as it directly translates to recovery.

 

Ha! Converted one!

[Koopak]

I mean its not wrong, i just find that so much is already in per-second 😛

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Koopak said:

 

They work out to be 3.3465 hp/s when slotted in an auto or toggle power, which is equivalent to roughly ~33% regeneration, very good, some of the best hp/s you can get out of enhancements let alone one.

As for Performance Shifters, i consider physical perfections damn near a dead power as it is, it just gives so little. Performance shifters work out to 0.25 end/s at 100% max end, obviously accolades, and +max end sets will increase this, but 4 of them is equal to 1 end/s+ so equal to about 60% recovery. For context that's 4.8x the recovery granted by Physical Perfection and 2.4x the recovery granted by Stamina before slotting.

This is all before Panacea, Miracal, and Numina's, your total there is going to be the equivalent of 107.5% recovery in procs alone, of which 82.5% of which will be in ticking procs (Performance Shifter and Panacea) which will be unaffected by -recovery. Thats... just alot of end when you add in your powers. Your grand total at the end of this all is likely to be in the 250-300% range which you are going to have to really try to use all of.

Keep in mind, any time your recovery ticks, and your endurance is full, that's lost power. Either slots that could have increased your durability or damage, or a more expensive power you could have used. As some have said the goal is to have just enough recovery you never run out, but I think that is a little misleading. The goal is to have just enough recovery that you START each fight at full endurance. This means its okay to run out, as long as its at the end of a fight. This is one of the reason end recovery tools like Fire Aura's consume are so good, it gives you a stronger control of your blue bar and lets you run aggressive builds that just need to last long enough to hit your end recovery tool again.

if you ever need a cheat sheet, check this useful post

 

I will admit to personally being a recovery overkill player. Get Ageless with a lot, otherwise use other tools more heavily than average. Like my Stamina is usually slotted 2 Performance Shifters and 2 Power Transfers. Or I use HO’s to get better end redux on some toggles. 
 

I simply hate the thought of having to slow down to conserve end, ever. Nothing murders your DPS like bottomed out end. So yeah, I err in the other direction a bit.

 

You talk about it being ok to eventually run out, but I never sit and wait after a fight, and also AV soloing fights can get pretty long. If you solo pylons, you having a toon that is good on endurance for 60 seconds instead of forever is going to be reflect poorly on your DPS.

[subbacultchas]

1 hour ago, Koopak said:

 

They work out to be 3.3465 hp/s when slotted in an auto or toggle power, which is equivalent to roughly ~33% regeneration, very good, some of the best hp/s you can get out of enhancements let alone one.

As for Performance Shifters, i consider physical perfections damn near a dead power as it is, it just gives so little. Performance shifters work out to 0.25 end/s at 100% max end, obviously accolades, and +max end sets will increase this, but 4 of them is equal to 1 end/s+ so equal to about 60% recovery. For context that's 4.8x the recovery granted by Physical Perfection and 2.4x the recovery granted by Stamina before slotting.

This is all before Panacea, Miracal, and Numina's, your total there is going to be the equivalent of 107.5% recovery in procs alone, of which 82.5% of which will be in ticking procs (Performance Shifter and Panacea) which will be unaffected by -recovery. Thats... just alot of end when you add in your powers. Your grand total at the end of this all is likely to be in the 250-300% range which you are going to have to really try to use all of.

Keep in mind, any time your recovery ticks, and your endurance is full, that's lost power. Either slots that could have increased your durability or damage, or a more expensive power you could have used. As some have said the goal is to have just enough recovery you never run out, but I think that is a little misleading. The goal is to have just enough recovery that you START each fight at full endurance. This means its okay to run out, as long as its at the end of a fight. This is one of the reason end recovery tools like Fire Aura's consume are so good, it gives you a stronger control of your blue bar and lets you run aggressive builds that just need to last long enough to hit your end recovery tool again.

if you ever need a cheat sheet, check this useful post

 

Good stuff, thanks for the link too. I want enough recovery to not really run out in long fights, like AVs, or masses of Cims and things like that. If I can last say 4-5 minute without using CABs or Serums, it would be ideal for me. I can save those for -end -recovery debuffs. I figure any regen on top of already having rooted is not going to be a bad thing, thanks for  the tips on that.

[Koopak]

2 Minutes is my goal, rare is the fight that exceeds 2 mins and in that case i can use a recovery tool, often i have Ageless Radial for the debuff resist, so that will cover it. As for arcane's comment about nto waiting, neither do I, but iv also usualy recovered 90% of what iv spent in the time it took to physically travel to the next group. A single mob takes very little endurance, especially in a group, and at the point where you can run full dps for 2 minutes you usually have such quick recovery that when you stop for the few seconds it takes to travel you recover most if not everything you lost.

[subbacultchas]

Totally doable, I usually always take Ageless.  Fiftieth time around though, I don't want to, and I don't know what I'll replace it with I just don't want Ageless. Or Cardiac. So I'm shooting for passive end recovery from slots and IOs.

[Koopak]

Which should be fine, I mentiond ageless purely to emphasize that theres a tool for everyone, I inly run ageless when soloing, In a group I run barrier radial for the 2x rez.

 

But even then 2mins seems to be the golden limit, anything below that becomes a problem

[Doomguide2005]

On 12/9/2021 at 3:55 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

If I remember correctly, 6 of the same kind is the max that will function on a character.

    Not sure if you are referring to the Rule of Five which sets a limit to 5 of the same named set bonus as a limit for each build.  I don't believe the Performance Shifter proc is consider a set bonus so the max is as may as you can fit in the build.

    4 of them is probably overkill outside of very unusual build circumstances.  I usually shoot for a net recovery in Mids of 2.5 or greater,  under 2.0 and I expect to have issues.  That net recovery is basically the amount I need to attack.  My Claws/SR has a bit over 2.5 with all her toggles on (9 at max, 7 more commonly).  With all 9 running she'll very slowly run down ... then eventually hit Conserve Power (or use blue or Geas, or for some never seen before reason since using Elude turn them all off and hit Eye of Magus.)

 

[arcane]

16 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

    Not sure if you are referring to the Rule of Five which sets a limit to 5 of the same named set bonus as a limit for each build.  I don't believe the Performance Shifter proc is consider a set bonus so the max is as may as you can fit in the build.

    4 of them is probably overkill outside of very unusual build circumstances.  I usually shoot for a net recovery in Mids of 2.5 or greater,  under 2.0 and I expect to have issues.  That net recovery is basically the amount I need to attack.  My Claws/SR has a bit over 2.5 with all her toggles on (9 at max, 7 more commonly).  With all 9 running she'll very slowly run down ... then eventually hit Conserve Power (or use blue or Geas, or for some never seen before reason since using Elude turn them all off and hit Eye of Magus.)

 

FYI I am only doing overkill measures like this when I have no backup. These are characters with no conserve power or Ageless or whatever. I can testify that you will still run out of endurance in such a scenario against hard targets with net 2.5 end/s recovery. Will you notice it in general play? No. Will you notice it against high regen hard targets that take 2 minutes or more of constant clicks to kill? Yes.

 

To reiterate, my impression of how much recovery is needed changed significantly when I began to try soloing hard targets that take several minutes. If you’re only tackling AV’s with a team, etc, you can stop reading here 🙂
 

Ofc if you have Ageless you barely need any net recovery at all to last forever. Maybe 1 end/s. If you want to rely on Ageless, which I often do (hi Storm, Dark Armor), that’s fine. But it changes the math dramatically.

 

Also, last thing, the guy with 4 performance shifters woulda probably been fine with 2, but I went energy mastery because StJ already had so many great attacks in the S/T chain that I felt I could mix it up and pass on the snipe for a change.

Edited December 12, 2021 by arcane

[subbacultchas]

I ended up here at 41 with 3 shifters, 3 power transfers and loving it. I don't see the need for any more end recovery, especially with the slight bit ill get from Musculature.

[roleki]

6 hours ago, subbacultchas said:

I ended up here at 41 with 3 shifters, 3 power transfers and loving it. I don't see the need for any more end recovery, especially with the slight bit ill get from Musculature.

 

It's not etched in iron or anything, but generally speaking, you want to recover 2% more endurance than you burn at rest, i.e. if you're standing still with all your toggles on and consuming 1.5 endurance a second, ideally you'd want to recover endurance at 3.5/s.  In my experience, very few builds actually reach that 2% margin without some finagling, but the Performance Shifter and Panacea procs can cover a LOT of ground in the gap. 

 

At a flat 100 max endurance, Panacea in an auto is effectively a .375/s endurance recovery buff, and a single Performance Shifter in an auto is (reliably) a .17/s endurance recovery buff.   Add a couple more PS procs slotted in auto powers, and altogether with the Panacea you're looking at (reliably) an .885/s recovery buff, with the potential to be anything from .965/s to 1.125/s if you fall on the .5 side of the 1.5 PPM in Performance Shifter.

 

So say you're burning endurance at 1.5/s but only recovering at 2.5/s.  Loaded with 3x Shifters and a Panacea to add .885/s, you're effectively recovering 3.385/s, which puts you fairly close to a 2% gap between recovery and consumption. 

 

Plus, you can always +5 your EndMods and/or your various X/Endurance enhancements to fine tune, and the Atlas Medallion will make your procs that much better.  

[UltraAlt]

On 12/11/2021 at 7:30 PM, Doomguide2005 said:

Not sure if you are referring to the Rule of Five which sets a limit to 5 of the same named set bonus as a limit for each build.

 

If that's what it is, that's what I'm referring to.

I don't really ever bother with it as I'm never in that situation. I'm a Franken-slotter when it comes down to it.

[subbacultchas]

Mostly finished build here, I think the end recovery is going to be fine. I don't plan on running Focused Accuracy often.

Thanks for the help folks.
 

 

[Hyperstrike]

One thing to remember about PerfShifter's proc.
Unlike +Recovery, which can still be FLOORED, Perf shifter delivers a flat amount of +End back to your blue bar.
So even if someone manages to murdalize your Recovery, you can still manufacture End.
Not a LOT, but...well...beggars and choosers.

I find that having at least one is ALWAYS worthwhile.
More than one?  Iffy.

[Hew]

re: power transfer, consider that 2 nets you +regen, 3 nets you max end (increasing max end does weird things to the efficacy of slotting recov...). So 2 (+heal, +5 endmod) is generally not a bad deal, 3 comes at the cost of a degenerate dam/endmod (but still no horrid).

 

Hyper is right on shifters proc, its still SOME end. Oddly though, the only time I've run into floored recov is when I've done it to myself with powers like EMP from RA.

 

4 slotting pt in an elec power (ball lightning, zapp?) brings juicy +maxhp too, which also feeds +regen from earlier in the set bonuses... It is a weird set that does a lot of useful bonuses for survival.

 

If I could spare the slots, I would go 2 slot pt, 1 slot shifter proc. That chance for heal is amaaaaazing.

[StrikerFox]

On 12/9/2021 at 9:43 AM, subbacultchas said:

Now there's an idea. How are the Power Transfers working out? I really considered one or two in the build.

 

I did a lot of testing with Power Transfer procs on a NB/Regen Stalker. I'm not at home to double check the numbers but remember it averaging out to be 3.9 hp/sec regen per proc. The Panacea unique adds around 3.3 hp/sec. 

 

On average, regen wise, a Power Transfer proc is stronger than Numina's, Regenerative Tissue and Impervious Skin uniques. But that's on Stalkers. I'm not sure if/how the numbers change with ATs with a higher HP amount.

[Koopak]

Gonna link boppers dive into that

 

 

[Shred Monkey]

Shifting through this thread I see a lot of maths going on, so I'll assume that's all covered.  By my personal build philosophy is this.  After I calculate my attack chain requirements, I do absolutely everything I can to maximize endurance recovery.  You see, I like to leave sprint and infiltration running during a fight, so I want to not only run my attack chain and all my defensive toggles running forever without running out of gas, but I want to have a considerable amount of excess recovery so I fight with my travel powers on as well.  I might turn them off if I'm soloing a Carnies, Freakshow, or a bunch of Mu's, but I turn them back on as soon as I can.

[FuturaTrunks]

My end heavy builds tend to use 2 chance for end procs max, generally by the time you have a power to slot 3, your end problems are in check anyways, and its better to fit in the random +heal to stack with pancea.  But if you think you need more you can always experiment with 3.