Blaster Knockback powers

[Peacemoon]

17 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

On regular content, sure. Just be sure you can handle it when things are set to +4x8 because if you knock the target away from my melee I am not chasing it or peeling it off you. I am on to the next target.

 

What makes you think I couldn’t handle it? I love the undercurrent of melee superiority to this debate, which is completely unwarranted.

 

I don’t mind watching melee run off in a strop, as long as you don’t expect me to chase after you and save you. I’m on my target 😉 

[Luminara]

12 minutes ago, Snarky said:

where exactly would this data come from?  a spreadsheet.  

 

or.... people talking about how disliked knockback is?   this is the locker room just off the playing field.  listen to the chatter my friend.

 

The "KB got me booted and called names" chatter?  It's amazingly silent chatter.  I searched, I dug, I listened, and it's pretty damn quiet, because I can't find it.

The "I knowingly, willingly selected a set with KB and I don't like KB, and instead of dealing with it, I'm going to rant" comments?  I expect literate adults in full possession of their faculties and not struggling with intellectual disabilities to be capable of accepting the consequences of their choices.  I don't think that's too much to ask, as it's no less than what I expect of myself.

 

The "Someone knocked a critter back and now I'm so mad my head is about to explode" posts?  Apparently, they're not mad enough to do anything about it.  No-one's being kicked for using KB.  No-one's being verbally abused for using KB.

 

Having to use Hover, or Fly, or vertically joust with Combat Jumping, or spend a slot on a KB->KD IO, or position the KB effect so it blows critters in a preferred direction, or fucking press W, is not the worst goddamn thing that can happen to people, not even in this game, and going spastic over it is immature and ridiculous.  It's not that important.  Worse things happen to all of us before our first cup of coffee in the morning.

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

The evidence presented thus far (none) indicates that the "controversy" isn't there.  As I previously noted, there aren't any posts reporting players being kicked for using KB, there aren't any posts reporting verbal abuse for using KB.  Some people don't like KB, and some people don't like "having" to use slots to mitigate KB, and some people are vocal about these things, but that "some" isn't even, based on the overwhelming lack of evidence, a significant percentage of current players.  That's not evidence that KB is "so controversial", it's evidence that people are different.  Shocker.

 

And the very notion that we'd stop including anything simply because some people don't like it, is ludicrous.  Some people don't like bubbles.  Some people don't like Speed Boost.  Some people don't like IO set bonuses.  Some people don't like particle effects.  Some people don't like zone music.  Absolutely everything in this game, every last thing, is disliked by someone, and expecting future development to avoid using anything that isn't universally adored is akin to expecting the entire game to be stripped down to a blank screen.

How dare you use logic? You're absolutely right, of course. 
 

[Troo]

I for one can't wait until Knockback does additional damage based on the new velocity formula.

 

Folks will have to decide on KD with less additional damage or giant KBs doing amaze damage.

 

 

Knockback haters be like "knockback again?!!!!!!... I just herded" /em ragequit

 

"but knockback is soo EPIC"

 

and then other folks be like "if you like knockbacks so much go play a ragdoll game"

 

https://www.addictinggames.com/playlists/playlist-bizarre-ragdoll.jsp

Edited December 16, 2021 by Troo

[Ukase]

15 minutes ago, Luminara said:

The "KB got me booted and called names" chatter?  It's amazingly silent chatter.  I searched, I dug, I listened, and it's pretty damn quiet, because I can't find it.

 

Now, I read your reply, in which you used logic quite well, illustrating that one cannot please all the people all the time, nor even some of the people all of the time. And there are certainly players who like and embrace KB, and those who do not. 

But, just because I haven't stated two of my anecdotes in the forums, doesn't mean they didn't happen. 

I certainly didn't share this first one, because I was the rude party. 
I've kindly, as in, gone out of my way, and taken mercy on a lower level defender, and allowed them to join my team as I go burning Freakshow in Crey's Folley. No sooner do I herd them up, and the defender does some sort of plasmatic taser type attack and blows them out of my burn patch. So, I yelled at him in writing, "Hey, don't knock the freaks out of my burn patch, you moron!" Ahem..I probably chose some more colorful language. 

The next tale, well, I was a by-stander, and witnessed the wordy debate in chat. There was an SG leader, two SG members, and three pugs. I was one of the pugs. The one with KB was another one of the pugs. One of the two sg members started typing out commands to the pug blaster to stop KBing "His" target. 
I suggested he press F and be right back at his target immediately. Would've been faster and easier than typing out all that rage. 

Long story short, although I do love a long story, the whole thing escalated into un-fun silence. And when I say escalated, the SG leader dropped Coalition with my SG of one for telling the leader to teach his members some manners, and then preceded to alienate just about everyone on Excelsior server in the months to follow. Thankfully, they don't play anymore.
 

Sure, these are more revealing of deficiencies in player personalities than the powersets. But they are still there. You just don't hear about them, because ...what is it estimated? 90% of players don't visit the forums. Something like that. And what good would it do? The event is passed, and there's nothing to gain. 

Oddly, ever since that interaction, I have been far more tolerant of KB, and even encouraging of it. Yet, I also recognize the frustration felt by other players when they have to deal with it. I don't see a solution to this minor problem (for me). It's not really that big of a deal to me. But I can see how it can be a big deal to others. The problem is, when I tell folks to use the F key, they don't use it to follow the npc, they use it to type expletives. They really do get frustrated and angry. 

And the truth is, that should be expected. I would submit that most that do play this game do not limit their playtime to 3 hours a week or something like that. I figure most are escaping from their real life, from whatever problems they may have. The reasons don't really matter. I say all that to say this: I clearly can't and shouldn't generalize our entire player base, it wouldn't be fair or nice. But I do strongly suspect at least half are dealing with things that impact them emotionally, to the point they are not always logical in their thinking. Consider the average age of the player base now..what is it? 40? Playing a game that is as big a time sink as raising twin babies as a single parent? That's not entirely rational in itself. 

If it is logical behavior you wish to see, I'm afraid you will be disappointed more often than not. 

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

The "KB got me booted and called names" chatter?  It's amazingly silent chatter.  I searched, I dug, I listened, and it's pretty damn quiet, because I can't find it.

The "I knowingly, willingly selected a set with KB and I don't like KB, and instead of dealing with it, I'm going to rant" comments?  I expect literate adults in full possession of their faculties and not struggling with intellectual disabilities to be capable of accepting the consequences of their choices.  I don't think that's too much to ask, as it's no less than what I expect of myself.

 

The "Someone knocked a critter back and now I'm so mad my head is about to explode" posts?  Apparently, they're not mad enough to do anything about it.  No-one's being kicked for using KB.  No-one's being verbally abused for using KB.

 

Having to use Hover, or Fly, or vertically joust with Combat Jumping, or spend a slot on a KB->KD IO, or position the KB effect so it blows critters in a preferred direction, or fucking press W, is not the worst goddamn thing that can happen to people, not even in this game, and going spastic over it is immature and ridiculous.  It's not that important.  Worse things happen to all of us before our first cup of coffee in the morning.

You havent read anything in just this thread about people avoiding teammates with knockback?   You have incredibly powerful filters running.  Nice enhancement!!!

[DreadShinobi]

I'll just put it out there that back on live one of the speed records for the ITF, back when 14 minutes was the fastest time in the game, included Rempire's energy/energy blaster. People with disdain around knockback in teams is well justified, because we all have had those experiences where careless usage of knockback can have a very negative impact on our game time, but really the sucky part is just that the people who don't use it well or don't care to use it with consideration for others put that grief on the people who play characters with knockback powers well and can function with others without being disruptive because they've played those characters enough to understand the nuances.

[Glacier Peak]

What is the longest animating attack power in this game? Anyone know? (Part of me wants to say it's Bitter Freeze Ray from the Ice Blast powerset, but that is only a paltry 2.5 seconds, or eternity in game time lol)

[Parabola]

3 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

What is the longest animating attack power in this game? Anyone know? (Part of me wants to say it's Bitter Freeze Ray from the Ice Blast powerset, but that is only a paltry 2.5 seconds, or eternity in game time lol)

Time bomb? If that counts. Devastating blow and slow energy transfer are around 2.9 seconds. Thunder strike is 3.4...

[Peacemoon]

15 minutes ago, Parabola said:

Time bomb? If that counts. Devastating blow and slow energy transfer are around 2.9 seconds. Thunder strike is 3.4...

Old Propel is up there too. But it’s primary function was to look awesome and not deal damage!

[Parabola]

3 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

19 minutes ago, Parabola said:

Time bomb? If that counts. Devastating blow and slow energy transfer are around 2.9 seconds. Thunder strike is 3.4...

Old Propel is up there too. But it’s primary function was to look awesome and not deal damage!

I'd suggest that the same could be said of thunder strike. That power has been the death knell for many of my attempts at an elec melee. 1k cuts is also at 3.4 I see.

[Solarverse]

3 hours ago, Ukase said:

How dare you use logic? You're absolutely right, of course. 
 

Logic was used on both sides...the problem is, is that nobody is listening. Luminara doesn't have the high ground here because the primary logic they are using (nobody gets hated on for having knock back on teams) is flawed and dead wrong. Luminara is sticking by the statement even though I completely disagree with it, so there is not much to be won here and the conversation is at a deadlock. However, the "logic" you are cheer leading is completely based on false assumptions.

Edit: I seen your follow-up post, so you see the same flaw in the logic that I do.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Solarverse

[A Cat]

40 minutes ago, Parabola said:

I'd suggest that the same could be said of thunder strike. That power has been the death knell for many of my attempts at an elec melee. 1k cuts is also at 3.4 I see.

1k cuts at least feels like you're doing something during those seconds. For some reason Devastating Blow (and those sharing the same animation) is just unbearably slow to me. Thunder Strike I tolerate on tanks and blasters, since the pay-off is pretty nice with the larger radius. 

[0th Power]

5 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Why should we name the power because of what happens in the aftermath of its use as opposed to what gets invoked?

It does the damage once it hits, plus what gets invoked would be a meteoroid

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

You havent read anything in just this thread about people avoiding teammates with knockback?

 

One post stated that the poster left teams with players who used KB without regard for teammates.  One.  You know, like Seismic Blast having one KB power, rather than "all about KB"?  One.

[Luminara]

59 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Luminara doesn't have the high ground here because the primary logic they are using (nobody gets hated on for having knock back on teams) is flawed and dead wrong.

 

I did ask you to provide some evidence of this rampant, egregious abuse to which you've alluded.  Your response was, "This conversation is over".

 

The absence of evidence is, in and of itself, evidence.  That's not flawed logic, it's one of the most basic tenets of observation.  For instance, we know that there are no Tyrannosaurus Rexes alive now.  We know this because we have no evidence of them being alive now.  The sum total of missing evidence for their continued survival to the present day is, therefore, evidence that there are none alive.

 

You know what, I'll ask someone else.  Hey, @GM Impervium, how many people have used the in-game report tool to report:

1. being kicked from a team for using KB
2. being verbally harassed for using KB
3. being griefed by someone using KB?

We don't need names, dates, times or anything like that.  Just totals.  And while you're at it, the total number of active player accounts would be helpful, so we can determine the percentage of players these issues affect.

[Solarverse]

39 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

I

did ask you to provide some evidence of this rampant, egregious abuse to which you've alluded.  Your response was, "This conversation is over".

 

And I won't be doing that. I'm not on trial here and I won't be wasting time and effort to find something you could easily find yourself. I'm sure the burden of proof is on me, but then again, I am also sure that many people have seen for themselves players getting kicked from teams or yelled at for using knock back on teams in game. I will not be wasting time to search for something that most others have already seen for themselves. And honestly, let's say I had the time to do all that, would it even change your mind in the slightest? Probably not, so why bother?

 

[Snarky]

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

I did ask you to provide some evidence of this rampant, egregious abuse to which you've alluded.  Your response was, "This conversation is over".

 

The absence of evidence is, in and of itself, evidence.  That's not flawed logic, it's one of the most basic tenets of observation.  For instance, we know that there are no Tyrannosaurus Rexes alive now.  We know this because we have no evidence of them being alive now.  The sum total of missing evidence for their continued survival to the present day is, therefore, evidence that there are none alive.

 

You know what, I'll ask someone else.  Hey, @GM Impervium, how many people have used the in-game report tool to report:

1. being kicked from a team for using KB
2. being verbally harassed for using KB
3. being griefed by someone using KB?

We don't need names, dates, times or anything like that.  Just totals.  And while you're at it, the total number of active player accounts would be helpful, so we can determine the percentage of players these issues affect.

I quit teams with idiots using KB powers.  There.  Now you got two.  (I am reasonably certain more than one person in this thread have said they disliked KB enough to avoid teams with it.  No, i am not going to read through and count them.  This does not mean you are correct.  It means I am not going to spoon feed you data to reject.)

[Bill Z Bubba]

43 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I quit teams with idiots using KB powers.  There.  Now you got two.  (I am reasonably certain more than one person in this thread have said they disliked KB enough to avoid teams with it.  No, i am not going to read through and count them.  This does not mean you are correct.  It means I am not going to spoon feed you data to reject.)

 

I have never quit a team or ignored or added comments to a player because of KB. I have cussed over discord with my SG because of it but I cuss a lot regardless of the situation... especially when I faceplant.

 

But I AM annoyed every time a spawn I've packed tightly for my AoEs gets thrown to the winds. But it is what it is and I move on and do what I do.

[Troo]

6 hours ago, Luminara said:

evidence of this rampant, egregious abuse

 

it happens. more often in some game play than others.

is it rampant? no.

is it egregious? no.

**exception to rampant=no (baby storms, its likely part of the learning curve. just wait for wind blast)

 

sound effects associated with some powers are more easily recognized. repeated application of a less-than-helpful strategy.. is painful to watch.

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Troo

[Rishidian]

Here's my 2 inf.

 

Back on Live, I don't even remember what KB power I was using (grenades, maybe?), but I was asked to stop using it because it caused issues with the Melee'rs.  I was tried to stop, but it was one of a few attacks I had, and I was trying to contribute to the cause.  I don't know if I did it (though I probably did), but another ranged KB power went off and boy, did I hear about it.  Much deserved, though.

 

More recently, I was on another team and one of the PUGs dropped a KB effect.  A couple folks on the team (I was one) asked POLITELY for them to not use KB powers.  No harsh language or anything.  Surprisingly (or not), they complied (much better than I did before).  It was a non issue.

 

So, without evidence, is there griefing (et al.) over Knockback?  Most assuredly - but then again, there is griefing over just about everything.  Does it get reported?  Maybe - might depend on severity.  I kinda doubt any report of 'Someone Used KnockBack On My Target" - a known power being used normally - getting taken seriously.

 

As was stated earlier, KB is controversial (I would call it contentious).  It works very well in some conditions (like soloing) and is not appreciated as much in groups.  I've been on both sides of the fence on this one.  Communication tends to go a long way in situations where it isn't as appreciated.

 

I also recall, there is a way to attach a chat message to a power, so that when the power is activated, a message hits a chat channel.  I don't know if this would be helpful.

[0th Power]

I lead teams most of the time, but if I was on a team that complained about my kb, I wouldn’t stay on that team much longer. 

[Erratic1]

7 hours ago, 0th Power said:

It does the damage once it hits, plus what gets invoked would be a meteoroid

 

A meteoroid is merely a piece of rock which might become a meteor or meteorite. 

 

Per NASA:

 

Quote

Meteoroids are objects in space that range in size from dust grains to small asteroids. Think of them as “space rocks." When meteoroids enter Earth's atmosphere (or that of another planet, like Mars) at high speed and burn up, the fireballs or “shooting stars” are called meteors.

 

[Erratic1]

11 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

 

What makes you think I couldn’t handle it? I love the undercurrent of melee superiority to this debate, which is completely unwarranted.

 

Having fewer tools broadly for dealing angry foes. There are some fantastic players and build out there but broadly it is the melee ATs which get called on to run into crowds, not the ranged ones.

 

11 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

I don’t mind watching melee run off in a strop, as long as you don’t expect me to chase after you and save you. I’m on my target 😉 

 

Something is  wrong if my melee needing a range character to save him.

[Snarky]

wtf is a strop?