Please remove/change "A woman dressed like a Harlot"

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, no vote.

 

Villains be having villain thoughts.

 

Hitler probably never thought "Gee, these Israelites are just super!"

 

He most likely thought bad thoughts.

[Lazarillo]

4 hours ago, AerialAssault said:

He later went on to nuke Praetoria so I wouldn't say that thinking bad things about his underlings is his worst take.

Honestly, thinking bad things about Tyrant's underlings would, typically, be pretty good take.  If Tyrant had had more takes like that, this whole kerfuffle might've been avoided in the first place.  Granted, it's still kind of a bad way to take a good take, in context, but it would've been a start.

[Glacier Peak]

8 hours ago, Zappalina said:

  "a woman who controlled shadows and dressed like a harlot,"  Edited for clarification: This was the mission it was in  Emperor Cole's Personal Story (Solo Mission) Speak with Praetor Sinclair

 

People - not cool.

 

Hey I don't think your post needs any emotes, but I do have a response for you.  Isn't Emperor Marcus Cole, aka Tyrant, aka Praetorian Statesman supposed to be the classic power crazed person in the franchise? And isn't that supposed to be an inner dialog, as in the thought bubble of Emperor Cole? I think others have mentioned that this is a work of fiction, but even if it wasn't and this was real life, do you think someone like Emperor Cole, a power hungry dictator, would have any different thoughts? I'm fairly confident that an individual like that would treat other people pretty poorly and use that type of imagery and language. 

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Krimson said:

We could approach it from a different angle. What if we made ALL of Cole's dialogue politically correct? All of it. Like he deliberately crafts his language to be inclusive because everyone is part of his plan. 

Would make sense since wokeism is a deranged tyrannical deathcult. Good angle.

[Marbing]

I think we have all made our points. Can this thread be closed before it turns into a flame war?

[Cobalt Azurean]

9 hours ago, Zappalina said:

People - not cool.

"Is it cool?"

[Black Zot]

When I find myself agreeing with arcane, somebody's way out to lunch.

[arcane]

10 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

When I find myself agreeing with arcane, somebody's way out to lunch.

Aww ily 🙂

[TheZag]

im just getting a reply on here before this one gets locked down.  I was eating ice cream while reading this.  Not the good ice cream that @Luminara went to get,  but the cheap ice cream that comes in a huge tub because i want alot of it.

[Burnt Umber]

I'm of two minds regard the suggestion and the highlighted text.  On the one hand, I think Tyrant would likely have problematic views.  And given that he's from the early 1900s, I'd expect him to be also racist and xenophobic too.  On the other hand, it feels a little wrong to me that Dark Swan is the only one with a questionable description; "Nega-Pendragon" is in fact a "shadowy version of a knight" and Shadow Walker is in fact a "beast."

 

Rather than removing the problematic element, might it be better to double-down and make the descriptions of the other AVs more judgmental?  For example, if Shadow Walker were instead described as a "disgusting, uncivilized beast"?

Edited April 10, 2022 by Burnt Umber

[Cherry]

4 hours ago, Ghost said:

Does anything else about the game offend you?

What about the use of guns? Or maybe the fact that people with deformities are treated as the villains?  What about the fact that sometimes the villain is a woman, and you punch her?

 

or women getting their purses snatched and beaten down with a bat in AP.

[arcane]

27 minutes ago, Krimson said:

I do understand that some are unable to communicate without political references. A sad way to live, but what can you do?

The original poster made references to political topics all over the place. Save your condescension for someone who cares 🙂

[GM Flints]

I'd rather this thread be cleaned up of comments about users personal beliefs- and cleaned up of personal attacks rather than locked, because it does bring up how intentionally problematic Tyrant/Emperor Cole's internal thoughts are - and uses that internal dialogue to laminate him as a bad person. 

That said continued personal attacks will result in actions taken, and a suggestions and feedback thread about NPC dialogue will be locked before it can fruit actually useful discussion on good ways to portray NPC's personal views while still fitting within a PG-13 game. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by GM Flints
Typo

[Marbing]

17 minutes ago, GM Flints said:

I'd rather this thread be cleaned up of comments about users personal beliefs- and cleaned up of personal attacks rather than locked, because it does bring up how intentionally problematic Tyrant/Emperor Cole's internal thoughts are - and uses that internal dialogue to laminate him as a bad person. 

That said continued personal attacks will result in actions taken, and a suggestions and feedback thread about NPC dialogue will be locked before it can fruit actually useful discussion on good ways to portray NPC's personal views while still fitting within a PG-13 game. 

That said. Do you have any thoughts on the matter? 

[PeregrineFalcon]

Tyrant is a bad guy. A villain. This internal dialog of his shows just what a bad guy he is. If the language is cleaned up then he won't look like the villainous mass murderer that he is.

 

Is that the intention? To clean up his dialog so that he's a sympathetic character rather than a villain?

[EmperorSteele]

What is WRONG with you people?!

 

A whole thread on why Emperor Cole is a Sexist Jerk and not one mention of his granddaughter named Dominatrix and how they used to do the Alabama tango?!

 

Pft, amateurs... 🙂

 

(And yeah yeah, I know, retcons...)

[Zappalina]

20 minutes ago, GM Flints said:

I'd rather this thread be cleaned up of comments about users personal beliefs- and cleaned up of personal attacks rather than locked, because it does bring up how intentionally problematic Tyrant/Emperor Cole's internal thoughts are - and uses that internal dialogue to laminate him as a bad person. 

That said continued personal attacks will result in actions taken, and a suggestions and feedback thread about NPC dialogue will be locked before it can fruit actually useful discussion on good ways to portray NPC's personal views while still fitting within a PG-13 game. 

Content Guidelines

The following is considered prohibited content

• Hate speech:
  • Hate speech is defined as anything threatening or abusive towards a specific group based on their race, religious beliefs, political affiliation, disability, sexual orientation or gender identity

I know the HC developers (?) didn't come up with the content in the game that I posted.  If you allow a female to be called a name in the game like hussy, harlot, whore, hooker these are derogatory terms,  it's allowing hate speech, just because a member of the community suggests artistic license doesn't mean that it isn't hate speech in regards to gender, that's like saying (Insert slur name here and let's discuss how that's okay to use this slur name).  

Words like Harlot used in this way ,would be called called sexual bullying that means that this term is cultural misogyny. "any behavior which degrades someone, singles someone out by the use of sexual language, gestures or violence, and victimizing someone for their appearance."  Kids play this game, women and girls play this game.  The prevalence of this kind of thing encountered in every day life can be overwhelming depending on where you live and what your immediate culture/schools/work place allow to continue without support and saying no this isn't okay.    So then seeing it in a game it's literally like wtf?  Who is the person behind that and why would they think that is okay to do. 

It feels odd to explain this - Basically if you wouldn't call your boss if she was a female that name to her face, then why would you continue to allow it in a game when your content says that it's considered prohibited.  

 

• Part of what sexual harassment falls under is things like; abusive, sexualised name calling and insults (such as calling someone a slut, or frigid)   The person behind the writing of the text for this character, put sexual harassment into the game.   In this response to me, it feels like you are saying "Let's discuss how sexual harassment is okay because it's fictional" yet there's someone behind the input of that.  So I don't get that.  I definitely won't be playing that arc again and I suggest if you're a female and have had to deal with this kind of thing in your life you avoid it.

I  know characters like The Joker were bad characters and the Penguin and scores of other villains and I didn't come across them calling Catwoman a slut or other derogatory name.   Again I am offering my opinion. On this thread,  It's my opinion and the amount of people who are like, You're wrong (for having an independent opinion that most likely doesn't come from their lens of life experience?) - or offensive things just ick.

 

This may help in determining if it's okay to put in a game as this has everything to do with the gender of a female being called a Harlot : 

Could we make the person that he's calling a derogatory name with a disability and make Cole call the person in a wheel chair a derogatory name in game based on their disability? because that's a protected class.

Maybe it could be their ethnicity. It could be one of these things that's not supposed to happen because of the code of conduct; race, religious beliefs, political affiliation, disability, sexual orientation or gender identity.   Because right now it's not cool that it's being said about a female character based on what she's wearing in a game even if it's fictional because again, kids and women play this and I'm sure there are men out there who dislike that as well, even if they're not popping into this thread.

and on this thread, there are tons of responses and people aren't like yep not cool to call a female a harlot in the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ghost]

No matter how bad you wish it to be, the term “harlot” is not considered hate speech.

 

It does not invite discrimination, hostility or violence.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Ghost

[Rudra]

18 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

What is WRONG with you people?!

 

A whole thread on why Emperor Cole is a Sexist Jerk and not one mention of his granddaughter named Dominatrix and how they used to do the Alabama tango?!

 

Pft, amateurs... 🙂

 

(And yeah yeah, I know, retcons...)

I was trying to avoid the possible ways Tyrant thinks of Dominatrix. You just know he's full of disappointment in her and likely holds a similar view as with Black Swan.

 

And, @Zappalina, the CoC applies to us players. We may not disparage each other. We may not engage in hate speech. We may not engage in harrassment or bullying. For crying out loud though, Tyrant has had that thought bubble/internal monologue since that arc was added to the game back on Live. It is intentionally disgusting and disparaging. It is intentionally there to showcase just how deplorable Tyrant is regardless of how he views himself the Grand Hero Saving Humanity.

 

If any player were to use that language against another player, I would agree with you. It is uncalled for and needs to be addressed. Tyrant is basically this game's Joseph Stalin. Or Adolf Hitler. Or pick any other tyrant/dictator who imposes his will and personal beliefs on others. If he did not have such a mental monologue, if his mental comments were inclusive or gender affirmative or anything positive, he would not be the Scum Of The Earths we all know and hate.

 

Please. Just let it go. You can't win this argument with the CoC. The mental monologue is supposed to be disturbing and offensive. That is its very point.

 

Edit: The internal monologue of Tyrant is not an advocation of his thought bigotry. It is not a presentation to disparage women. It is a presentation of the antiquated and deplorable morality Tyrant possesses.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Rudra

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, Zappalina said:

Content Guidelines

 

Refers to player interaction with other players.  Not to bad guys written to be bad guys and making comments about other bad guys.  Cole isn't addressing you, your character, your teammate, your pet/hench, your employer, your family members or anyone else in the real world.  The content guidelines don't apply to this situation, no matter how hard you bend and twist them.

[InvaderStych]

33 minutes ago, Zappalina said:

The following is considered prohibited content

 

NPCs, and especially Arch-Villain antagonists whom we are supposed to find despicable, are not beholden to the CoC to which Human Players are beholden.

 

This has already been explained multiple times in this thread. Code of Conduct is for players. Full Stop.

 

1 hour ago, Burnt Umber said:

Rather than removing the problematic element, might it be better to double-down and make the descriptions of the other AVs more judgmental?  For example, if Shadow Walker were instead described as a "disgusting, uncivilized beast"?

 

Setting aside that I completely disagree that the use of unacceptable language or the retention of unacceptable beliefs by characters who are supposed to be vile, reprehensible, villains and the primary antagonist for an entire series of connected stories is "problematic," I will completely endorse this suggestion.

 

Tyrant's heart and mind should be full of this sort of dismissive judgemental stuff about his "worthless underlings" - which is a phrase I could picture him using as well.

 

All for editing the text such that it is equally judgemental of all the underlings mentioned.

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by InvaderStych

[Greycat]

Seeing your response shows just how *badly* you're missing the point.

 

9 minutes ago, Zappalina said:

and on this thread, there are tons of responses and people aren't like yep not cool to call a female a harlot in the game

 

You're on earth. The point is over in the Oort cloud. You're missing it *that badly.*  Here:

 

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Edit: The internal monologue of Tyrant is not an advocation of his thought bigotry. It is not a presentation to disparage women. It is a presentation of the antiquated and deplorable morality Tyrant possesses.

 

This. The internal monologue reflects Cole *very well.* He's from the turn of the (20th) century. Not only is this "problematic" line reflecting his view of how women should be in general, but he calls her a *harlot.* Not a slut, not a whore or any similar term, but one that's frankly seen as archaic. When's the last time you heard *anyone* called a "harlot?" Maybe reading the Bible? If it's in a modern setting, it's probably someone being presented as a religious fanatic yelling on a street corner.

 

This is not saying anything *close* to "It's ok to call a female this in game." The COC does not apply to NPCs. NPCs do not have conduct to begin with, or agency to conduct it. Hell, while we're at it, Cole's not even saying this. He's *thinking* it. Are you, OP, advocating for thought police?

 

Isn't that part of Cole's gig?

[Marbing]

18 minutes ago, Zappalina said:

Content Guidelines

The following is considered prohibited content

• Hate speech:
  • Hate speech is defined as anything threatening or abusive towards a specific group based on their race, religious beliefs, political affiliation, disability, sexual orientation or gender identity

I know the HC developers (?) didn't come up with the content in the game that I posted.  If you allow a female to be called a name in the game like hussy, harlot, whore, hooker these are derogatory terms,  it's allowing hate speech, just because a member of the community suggests artistic license doesn't mean that it isn't hate speech in regards to gender, that's like saying (Insert slur name here and let's discuss how that's okay to use this slur name).  

Words like Harlot used in this way ,would be called called sexual bullying that means that this term is cultural misogyny. "any behavior which degrades someone, singles someone out by the use of sexual language, gestures or violence, and victimizing someone for their appearance."  Kids play this game, women and girls play this game.  The prevalence of this kind of thing encountered in every day life can be overwhelming depending on where you live and what your immediate culture/schools/work place allow to continue without support and saying no this isn't okay.    So then seeing it in a game it's literally like wtf?  Who is the person behind that and why would they think that is okay to do. 

It feels odd to explain this - Basically if you wouldn't call your boss if she was a female that name to her face, then why would you continue to allow it in a game when your content says that it's considered prohibited.  

 

• Part of what sexual harassment falls under is things like; abusive, sexualised name calling and insults (such as calling someone a slut, or frigid)   The person behind the writing of the text for this character, put sexual harassment into the game.   In this response to me, it feels like you are saying "Let's discuss how sexual harassment is okay because it's fictional" yet there's someone behind the input of that.  So I don't get that.  I definitely won't be playing that arc again and I suggest if you're a female and have had to deal with this kind of thing in your life you avoid it.

I  know characters like The Joker were bad characters and the Penguin and scores of other villains and I didn't come across them calling Catwoman a slut or other derogatory name.   Again I am offering my opinion. On this thread,  It's my opinion and the amount of people who are like, You're wrong (for having an independent opinion that most likely doesn't come from their lens of life experience?) - or offensive things just ick.

 

This may help in determining if it's okay to put in a game as this has everything to do with the gender of a female being called a Harlot : 

Could we make the person that he's calling a derogatory name with a disability and make Cole call the person in a wheel chair a derogatory name in game based on their disability? because that's a protected class.

Maybe it could be their ethnicity. It could be one of these things that's not supposed to happen because of the code of conduct; race, religious beliefs, political affiliation, disability, sexual orientation or gender identity.   Because right now it's not cool that it's being said about a female character based on what she's wearing in a game even if it's fictional because again, kids and women play this and I'm sure there are men out there who dislike that as well, even if they're not popping into this thread.

and on this thread, there are tons of responses and people aren't like yep not cool to call a female a harlot in the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I get the argument you are trying to make. But it is censorship to tell an author they can’t write something because someone may find it offensive. And it doesn’t violate CoC because this is an NPC referring to another NPC, who are both fictional and don’t represent real people.

[arcane]

43 minutes ago, Zappalina said:

Content Guidelines

The following is considered prohibited content

• Hate speech:
  • Hate speech is defined as anything threatening or abusive towards a specific group based on their race, religious beliefs, political affiliation, disability, sexual orientation or gender identity

I know the HC developers (?) didn't come up with the content in the game that I posted.  If you allow a female to be called a name in the game like hussy, harlot, whore, hooker these are derogatory terms,  it's allowing hate speech, just because a member of the community suggests artistic license doesn't mean that it isn't hate speech in regards to gender, that's like saying (Insert slur name here and let's discuss how that's okay to use this slur name).  

Words like Harlot used in this way ,would be called called sexual bullying that means that this term is cultural misogyny. "any behavior which degrades someone, singles someone out by the use of sexual language, gestures or violence, and victimizing someone for their appearance."  Kids play this game, women and girls play this game.  The prevalence of this kind of thing encountered in every day life can be overwhelming depending on where you live and what your immediate culture/schools/work place allow to continue without support and saying no this isn't okay.    So then seeing it in a game it's literally like wtf?  Who is the person behind that and why would they think that is okay to do. 

It feels odd to explain this - Basically if you wouldn't call your boss if she was a female that name to her face, then why would you continue to allow it in a game when your content says that it's considered prohibited.  

 

• Part of what sexual harassment falls under is things like; abusive, sexualised name calling and insults (such as calling someone a slut, or frigid)   The person behind the writing of the text for this character, put sexual harassment into the game.   In this response to me, it feels like you are saying "Let's discuss how sexual harassment is okay because it's fictional" yet there's someone behind the input of that.  So I don't get that.  I definitely won't be playing that arc again and I suggest if you're a female and have had to deal with this kind of thing in your life you avoid it.

I  know characters like The Joker were bad characters and the Penguin and scores of other villains and I didn't come across them calling Catwoman a slut or other derogatory name.   Again I am offering my opinion. On this thread,  It's my opinion and the amount of people who are like, You're wrong (for having an independent opinion that most likely doesn't come from their lens of life experience?) - or offensive things just ick.

 

This may help in determining if it's okay to put in a game as this has everything to do with the gender of a female being called a Harlot : 

Could we make the person that he's calling a derogatory name with a disability and make Cole call the person in a wheel chair a derogatory name in game based on their disability? because that's a protected class.

Maybe it could be their ethnicity. It could be one of these things that's not supposed to happen because of the code of conduct; race, religious beliefs, political affiliation, disability, sexual orientation or gender identity.   Because right now it's not cool that it's being said about a female character based on what she's wearing in a game even if it's fictional because again, kids and women play this and I'm sure there are men out there who dislike that as well, even if they're not popping into this thread.

and on this thread, there are tons of responses and people aren't like yep not cool to call a female a harlot in the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

you are actually kind of a treasure please post more

[The_Warpact]

Like I said don't like it so let's change it, burn it, and tear it down. 

How many people have posted in this thread with common sense and logic, yet the minority gets the soapbox.

 

No wonder the world is messed up.