issue 27 Focused Feedback: Architect Entertainment

[Aeolus]

I do farm, but mostly as a way to level up my other toons to around 40 and go from there. So the removal of XP from AE won’t really hit me, ‘cos my farmer is all ready maxed out. And I don’t rely on AE to open incarnate slots with my other toons (for me, it just feels like it takes to long). 
 

However, just because I don’t use AE farming for this, doesn’t mean—I think—it should be taken away. I can’t really see the reason it would be. “Getting the players to become involved in endgame content” doesn’t really seem like a big motivator. I just think players are going to rage quit over the change. I do see diehard lovers of the game grumble about it, but later just deal with it. 
 

Maybe it’s another money pit option? I know if you spend one million influence and some threads, it will open up the slots faster. I’m not at my computer, so I can’t give specifics, but I do see the devs using this option to get rid of access influence.

 

Anyway, I do hope the playerbase and devs find a compromise. Just remember: a good compromise is where both parties leave uphappy. 🤣

[Sovera]

11 minutes ago, Aeolus said:

I do farm, but mostly as a way to level up my other toons to around 40 and go from there. So the removal of XP from AE won’t really hit me, ‘cos my farmer is all ready maxed out. And I don’t rely on AE to open incarnate slots with my other toons (for me, it just feels like it takes to long). 
 

However, just because I don’t use AE farming for this, doesn’t mean—I think—it should be taken away. I can’t really see the reason it would be. “Getting the players to become involved in endgame content” doesn’t really seem like a big motivator. I just think players are going to rage quit over the change. I do see diehard lovers of the game grumble about it, but later just deal with it. 
 

Maybe it’s another money pit option? I know if you spend one million influence and some threads, it will open up the slots faster. I’m not at my computer, so I can’t give specifics, but I do see the devs using this option to get rid of access influence.

 

Anyway, I do hope the playerbase and devs find a compromise. Just remember: a good compromise is where both parties leave uphappy. 🤣

 

The problem here is simple though it might also be minor.

 

Those who did not want to engage in content did farming. Now those who do not want to engage in content are told to do it or miss out. This is no different from other games when they  put appealing prizes in PvP in order to get the PvE crowd to do it, which they do because appealing prizes, but not enjoying it, not having fun, and most often spoiling the fun of the PvP crowd to find a bunch of wet eared players with PvE builds and no clue.

 

But this is minor for a few reasons:

 

- Those who already farmed are already set.

- The number of people who -only- farm and never do other PvE content might be a small statistic. Or it might not. What do I know?

 

 

So the only affected people are new players who ONLY want to farm.

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Sovera

[johua]

the AE changes with respect to veteran levels and emp merits is bad and will not have the desired outcome.

it's just going to make the people who like to do that stop playing.

[Digirium]

I assume incarnate shards will not drop either since threads were already mentioned as removed drops.

 

What happens to the XP that is denied? Either it is shared out to the team members or discarded. I assume discarded.

 

Farmers that want their cake and eat it will go old school  i.e. find a non-AE farm so still get rewards including vet levels, EMs, etc.

 

Filling out incarnate XP to hybrid in an AE farm is not so great without shards, threads and EMs to actually fill in unlocked incarnate slots. It means farming regular content instead including those repeats that reward incarnate components without time constraint.

 

The grind will still exist just "culturally" forced to other routes.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Digirium

[Clave Dark 5]

Bit disappointed there was no mention of a fix for the small AE bug where the first lines of scripted dialogue from placed people around the map all get dumped at once when you first walk into the map.  I mean, I know, bug fixes can be really tough... but I was sort of hoping.  This one error really hampers people writing missions.

 

But it's not a big thing, I'm not like steaming mad or morosely tossing a noose over a nearby rafter or anything.  Other than occasionally writing an arc, I have to admit I hardly use Ae.

[Heatstroke]

9 hours ago, Mr. Apocalypse said:

I truly enjoy my power leveling of my own toons vet rewards and all, since it helps me get all the sets I need.  These changes look like they are going to put a serious damper on the only reason I play.  I dont understand the need force these types of changes upon us.

 

I for one am not very happy about this, but since I don't have to pay to play I am not going to throw a fit. I will probably just move on to some other game.

 

 

here is my currently solution.. since I didnt get Wind Control I have no incentive to make any more characters. Im going to finish off my last 50. I expect my playing time will be reduced dramatically. 

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

So the only affected people are new players who ONLY want to farm.

Patently false. 
I would be affected, and I do far more than farm. 

[Ukase]

Now that I've slept on this topic of no vet levels in AE, the more I believe it's a bad idea. 
I think our HC Devs have lost their way with this move. And I don't say it lightly. 

If there's something about the idea of folks getting vet levels, emps, (shards?), threads in AE that the HC Devs find objectionable, they should simply say so. We get to play for free. I venture to guess we all abide by the 3 accounts per shard, and that's pretty much self-policed. If they don't want us to do this, then what is it they do want us to do? 

Folks, it's an old game. How many times do they want us to do the same thing over and over, after waiting for who knows how long to get a league together? On the other hand, a farmer can do the same thing over and over - without waiting who knows how long to get a league together. 

It's just a bad idea from where I sit. Maybe there's something I don't know, but if that's the case, simply state WHY. There needs to be a reason, and I would have this oh-so transparent team of HC Devs share what that reason is. 

[TheZag]

It always seemed strange to me that characters in the game world could become stronger by playing their ingame virtual reality.  And im fairly certain that the well doesnt favor and reward virtual power so removing vet xp and their associated incarnate rewards is a good step.  I would argue that 'virtual incarnates' shouldnt be a thing at all.

 

[Sovera]

Just now, TheZag said:

It always seemed strange to me that characters in the game world could become stronger by playing their ingame virtual reality.  And im fairly certain that the well doesnt favor and reward virtual power so removing vet xp and their associated incarnate rewards is a good step.  I would argue that 'virtual incarnates' shouldnt be a thing at all.

 

 

People throwing fire from their hands and a magical well granting divine powers is fine, but people using a Danger Room to practice their powers and train is a no no?

 

Lets not bring roleplay decisions into gameplay.

[Ruin Mage]

Right now its just no more vet levels. You can still get Incarnate EXP.

Just to make sure that's clear.

[GM Impervium]

2 hours ago, Digirium said:

I assume incarnate shards will not drop either since threads were already mentioned as removed drops.

 

Shards and threads should still drop from foe defeats as normal. The only "removed threads" would be the 120 you get at a time from getting Vet Levels (thanks for the clarification, @Digirium!). But, maybe you should test it and find out?

And look everyone, I know your big take-away is the removal of post-50 XP. But there's a LOT more stuff here that needs attention. Why don't we try making some NPCs that can summon all the pets, or has one of every different blast power, or something fun? Yeah, I know, it doubly wouldn't be worth it since those custom critters won't drop XP anyway... but, if we're to revert the no-xp change, we want to make sure everything ELSE is working as intended.

Edited July 13, 2022 by GM Impervium

[Peacemoon]

I think this is a good change. Veteran levels should be earned in the ‘real world’ of City of Heroes and a high Veteran level shouldn’t mean ‘spent a long time farming in AE’. 

AE gives plenty of rewards still and I don’t think this changes that fact; you still get salvage, influence and recipes - plus incarnate xp to unlock the actual slots.  
 

I always feel like Vet Levels are a prestige thing.

Plus it’s easy to get good xp with incarnate content; especially once you’ve got a level shift or two. 
 

I speak as someone with 2 characters of vet level 50-80 and a lot of that was from AE and Dark Astoria.

 

[High_Beam]

You grew up on the farm now its time to leave and see the real world.  Alt Build.

 

Leave the Farm and See the City.

[TheZag]

Ill be making an AV with all the pets.  Every MM pet,  every controller pet,  some AoE buffs and some armor.  See if you can defeat that 😛

Edited July 13, 2022 by TheZag

[Peacemoon]

Also my other feedback is I think people would be more concerned with the post-50 incarnate rewards being harder to obtain rather than no vet xp per se. It’s just the way it is currently implemented the two systems are intrinsically linked.

 

Perhaps there should be more incarnate rewards for the first playthrough of incarnate content?  Like the dark Astoria story arc - perhaps the badges linked to it could give incarnate threads, etc. So when you complete them for the first time you get a nice surge of resources (and because it’s linked to the badge it wouldn’t affect repeat runs, they’d stay as they are now).

Edited July 13, 2022 by Peacemoon

[Digirium]

6 minutes ago, GM Impervium said:

Shards and threads should still drop from foe defeats as normal. The only "removed threads" would be the 90 or so you get at a time from getting Vet Levels. But, maybe you should test it and find out?

 

Thanks for clarification.

 

Btw, there are 960 threads during XP gain at veteran levels up to 11 (but not those divisible by three i.e. 3, 6 or 9 EMs are gained). 120 incarnate threads are gained per level.

[Myrmidon]

9 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

Also my other feedback is I think people would be more concerned with the post-50 incarnate rewards being harder to obtain rather than no vet xp per se. It’s just the way it is currently implemented the two systems are intrinsically linked.

 

Perhaps there should be more incarnate rewards for the first playthrough of incarnate content?  Like the dark Astoria story arc - perhaps the badges linked to it could give incarnate threads, etc. So when you complete them for the first time you get a nice surge of resources (and because it’s linked to the badge it wouldn’t affect repeat runs, they’d stay as they are now).

Don’t forget that everything in the game (except AE in this current test) also grants you Veteran levels, so it’s not like they channeled everyone into Incarnate content and gave people a “too bad, so sad” option.

 

Besides, this isn’t really about farming, it’s about reward/time ratio, which AE eclipses everything else in the game by a wide margin in that respect. Now, if people move out of AE and into the rest of the content, I’m sure there are metrics there that could help change this.

[Troo]

These changes look encouraging for player created content.

 

Excited to see what players can come up with for interesting new enemies.

 

 

19 hours ago, The Curator said:

Power point values for all Custom Enemy powers have been normalized.

*Gasp*

 

Actually, the changes that look to be impactful to 'AE farming' lean toward being fairly reasonable and seem to respect that there are players who enjoy these activities.

 

Proposed changes could have or maybe should have been much stronger, could have easily been an over correction, or even killed these activities outright.

 

 

With the number of claims seen on "farming a T4 50 in _ hours" & "make ________ infamy per hour", what did folks think would happen?

 

 

 

[arcane]

4 hours ago, Digirium said:

Farmers that want their cake and eat it will go old school  i.e. find a non-AE farm so still get rewards including vet levels, EMs, etc.

Yep, farmers who want to farm will continue to farm. Kinda looking forward to kicking it in Portal Corps again for my farming needs.

[JIMMYDEENS]

Don't know why my post was removed, sorry if I was being rude for calling out that double exp "bug".

 

Quote

• Characters at Level 50 can no longer earn experience towards the Veteran Level rewards (Veteran Badges, Incarnate Threads, and Empyrean Merits) from Architect Entertainment content; this does not apply to Incarnate Slot Experience which can still be earned in AE.

 

Please consider undoing this change, this is a terrible idea, many people who play AE play it because farming in the base game is boring as hell, all the mobs are hugely separated, with AE we have mobs within very close proximity (Shiva Fragment). AE farms are fun as hell. I don't find the base game of CoH fun at all, take away post 50 exp and your forcing players to play content they probably do NOT enjoy... When NCSoft nerfed AE into oblivion that was the beginning of the end for CoH, you're making the SAME EXACT mistake now.

 

Quote

• Fixed a bug with Experience Boosters granting too much experience in non-Dev Choice AE missions. 1.5XP was giving double XP and 2XP was giving triple XP. These have been corrected to the intended 1.5x and 2x, respectively.

 

I find this hard to believe, so you're saying double exp for AE was bugged for over 2 years straight? I find that hard to believe...

[Mr. Apocalypse]

I want to further clarify my position after a night to sleep on the changes on beta, My thoughts are still in a whirlwind after seeing the changes. so i may leave out some details.

 

when the game was live, I had somewhere around 25 fully developed level 50 characters that I played regularly.  I had one of the top badge hunters, I ran the largest SG on Guardian Server. Ran events 7 days a week.  Yada yada yada. The point is, There is no content in this game aside from anything the HC team has introduced, that I have not done, multiple times. 

 

I use the AE and the rewards in place from farming in order to build back my old toons from live and to relive certain content arcs with said toons.  I have no desire to go back to the days of depending upon others to get in game rewards.  The main reason I came back and got hooked again on this game, was the ability to easily get back what was once taken away.  I have not yet finished building back all of my former heroes/ villains, and these changes will affect that goal in some negative ways. they will also affect how I add to the community.  I am sure there are others who are in a similar situation as me, in regards to just wanting their old toons back.

 

1.Cutting emp merit rewards via Vet leveling will force me to buy sets more often on the market rather than through conversion, prices will increase for IOs on market.

2.I will be forced to farm "Heather Townsend arc (Burden of the Past)" more often, I speed run this for emp merits/threads and incarnate salvage, so my recipe/salvage output to market will decrease, prices will go up

 

 

This really just seems like a very poor decision. The type of decision that typically would come form a pay to play game trying to extend subscription times, on a player base hungry for the next big content drop. This is not a good decision in a 18 year old game, on a  rouge server, that is primarily filled with those of us trying to relive our "glory days"

 

I do not pay to play, there is no contract between myself and the devs. This is their project and they can do as they wish.  I am however eternally grateful they have given me the opportunity to relive the past, without their hard work, it would have been lost forever. This just really feels like a "its our ball" type move and that really sucks.

 

 

 

[Number Six]

3 minutes ago, JIMMYDEENS said:

I find this hard to believe, so you're saying double exp for AE was bugged for over 2 years straight? I find that hard to believe...

 

I didn't believe it either at first. The developer who worked on the multipliers for the post-50 XP in AE ran into an issue with the calculation and fixed it, and only later realized the implications with regard to the boosters, so we went and checked and discovered that sure enough they've been awarding triple XP in AE this whole time.

 

You can verify easily by running an AE mission on live without, then with a booster and comparing the XP awarded per defeat. Then do the same on Brainstorm.

 

Strangely, despite having been that way since the boosters were rolled out, nobody reported the issue. 🤔

[Ukase]

10 hours ago, GM Widower said:

Just as an addendum: this is a feedback thread, not a guessing game of the devs' motivations.

Apologies - but reasoning behind changes like this are relevant to determining that feedback. For instance, let's say as a dev, you had access to all sorts of information from data mining efforts that we don't - which could be a reason for such a change. 

In the vacuum of information that we have, it's not clear if this is good or bad. For me, it's bad. Horrible even. But if I know why, then I can perhaps stomach it and better adjust my current attitude. 

I'm uncertain if you guys want to know my likely response if such a thing hits the servers. 
First, I'm going to buy as many converters as I can, and continue to do so, until they hit a point where it doesn't pay me to do so. I will do this because you'll have taken away my current method for getting these converters - if I continue to play. 

Having to do the same iTrials over and over to get to tier 4 just isn't that much fun, particularly with some of these players who fuss at me for putting a buff on them that covers a costume that I can't even see without the buff. Not to mention the waiting and waiting for enough folks to do these trials. 

It's just going to push many folks away from playing, and I don't think that's what you're after. Now I could be wrong, and have been before. Will be again. But my gut tells me that it's poor planning. That's why the reasoning behind the change is important for me to know. It has to make sense, even if I disagree with the logic. 

[skoryy]

1 minute ago, Number Six said:

Strangely, despite having been that way since the boosters were rolled out, nobody reported the issue.

 

Oh, I know the song!  "Things that make you go hmmmm o/~"