What does it mean to be Level 50 versus Incarnate?

[Black Talon]

This thread addresses a point that I've been given a couple of in-game lectures about by my "betters".  I have over half a dozen 50s at this point, and still play all of them very regularly; on a daily basis, usually.  Although it took a long time, I finally did give in and start outfitting My Boys with a full slate of recipes (including a number of purple sets; was several hundred million bucks, but it seems to have been worth it), and they're now all able to solo level 52-54 police scanner missions, depending on the AT.

 

I have, however, virtually no interest in the whole Incarnate system, and this thread, and its various contributors, have only confirmed what were previously various vaguely-imparted opinons.  This has made my beliefs on the subject of a more concrete nature.  My Boys have all got a number of different origin types: Magic, Technology, Natural, Scientific, what have you.  I've got no urge to start throwing them all into some anonymous pit that strips them of the stories that *I* took the time and effort to create for them and replace it with Hero MCMLXXIV Generic Origin.  In The Boys, the super-powered crew finding out their paranormal gifts were not from God, but the work of a rogue Nazi scientist becomes a line of narrative power; it builds to a fricking good story.  CoH HC ain't a television show with a single driving story; it's thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of people seeking to create their own stories within the confines of a virtual game setting.  Please don't force me, or anyone else, to give up that personally beloved story for a numeric advancement of, as many here have confirmed, dubious value.

 

It's my hope that, one day, a sweeping change will remake HC and that the Incarnate system will become something not too much different from the advancements the characters make during their 1-50 run.  There might be a couple of specialized missions you have to do on the way to confirming your +1 - not terribly different from the earn-your-cape mission in the pre-Shutdown days - and the resulting awards will, hopefully, be of real benefit.  Until that day, I'm going to stick to my regular 50s, spend time inputting those purple/red recipes (I'd rather be out scrapping bad guys, but I'll live with it), and leave the Incarnate system to those who see value in it.  Till then, best to all, and will be keeping an eye on Torchbearer for the next TF-building group.

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

That's because they're designing builds in a way that forces the use of incarnate powers to fix end woes. Back before incarnates, we'd build specifically to handle the endurance cost. Now it's "to hell with build balance before 50, just grab ageless and use a different build for exemplaring or just never do it."

 

47 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Since I tend to run my 50s at all kinds of levels with the family SG, I still build to be fairly energy-efficent without the iToys... but old habits die hard, Even without the Wolfepack, I never really stopped doing that on at least some level. 

 

 

 

I think I'm just too old school reading this thread. I always see builds as they should be good and fixed by 50, and that if Incarnates are going to get tossed on top then they should just be extra dressing. I should be just wanting to use them to cram more power, more damage, not fix fix fix. If I can't take Musculature as my Alpha, and play Wheel of Fortune on my Destiny choices, and take Hybrid Assault for more damage, then I feel like I've definitely done something wrong. Lore or not, I wants the POWAH!

 

[ForeverLaxx]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

That's because they're designing builds in a way that forces the use of incarnate powers to fix end woes. Back before incarnates, we'd build specifically to handle the endurance cost. Now it's "to hell with build balance before 50, just grab ageless and use a different build for exemplaring or just never do it."

Was about to post this myself and it might be why I don't struggle to handle my endurance usage on my Titan Weapon or Dark Armor characters despite them not even being higher than 40 yet. Hell, I had a TW/Dark Scrapper on live that only ran on SOs and didn't have any major issues. Most players these days seem to be trying to build attack chains that spam as many aoes as fast as possible, move as quickly as possible between spawns without stopping for anything, and any endurance level below 80% is considered a "problem" that needs to be fixed. Since Incarnates are a thing, they just decide Incarnates will fix it.

 

I can't say it's a bad way to design considering my min/max tendencies, but it does sorta mean your character is only functional at the level your endurance issues are solved. If you wait until Incarnates (or more likely, PL to 50) to fix your endurance problems, you're basically locking your character at that level for functionality. It is causing a warped view of powersets and how they function in the game "without Incarnates" though, as the post you quoted shows evidence of.

[Clave Dark 5]

19 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

Endurance is the main one.

Too many times have I seen builds that state once you get to incarnate levels and get X, your problems will go away.

100% agree, I hate crutches like that.  I often drop builds I've picked up from the forums when I see them going that way (and when I do work on my own builds, I ignore that option).  I don't think that was a papering over weak powersets move on the original devs' parts though, just what a lot of players who don't wanna play anything but 50s go for.

[UltraAlt]

9 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

The approval of some of the top ranking stories were even considered "canon" by some when they got the Dev approval mark.

 

Would be nice if some of those could be moved into the actual game somehow with their contacts been persistent on the map somewhere outside of the AE perhaps related to the theme, genre, and level of the missions.

[VashNKnives]

I definitely incarnate my favorite characters but don't link the story to their background. The incarnate powers are a little cheesy other than alpha but I like to mow through large spawns solo and so I use them to the max benefit that I see but recolor them to suit the character's background and such if I can.

 

For exemplaring, I don't worry about being reliant on incarnate crutches for 54 content because if I exemplar it is likely on a team with random buffs/debuffs that make things work + all those IO set bonuses I may have not had while leveling. However, most of us also know how to play our characters in hardship-mode anyway, using only helpful powers and toggles to reduce wasted endurance burn.

[Ukase]

7 hours ago, Black Talon said:

It's my hope that, one day, a sweeping change will remake HC and that the Incarnate system will become something not too much different from the advancements the characters make during their 1-50 run.  There might be a couple of specialized missions you have to do on the way to confirming your +1 - not terribly different from the earn-your-cape mission in the pre-Shutdown days - and the resulting awards will, hopefully, be of real benefit.  Until that day, I'm going to stick to my regular 50s, spend time inputting those purple/red recipes (I'd rather be out scrapping bad guys, but I'll live with it), and leave the Incarnate system to those who see value in it.  Till then, best to all, and will be keeping an eye on Torchbearer for the next TF-building group.

Huh? 
Mender Remiel - complete his arc and unlock your Alpha slot. Granted, it doesn't confirm your +1, it's an option used to buy-in to begin the incarnate journey. 
The story arcs in Dark Astoria, and/or the iTrials (or farming your way with vet levels) - do result in awards that are of real benefit. 
Alpha, Judgement, Interface, Lore, Destiny, Hybrid - are all "awards" and all have value. Some are more situational and useful than others. And opinions will vary about their utility. 

I don't see how what's available now isn't what you state you're waiting for. 

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

100% agree, I hate crutches like that.  I often drop builds I've picked up from the forums when I see them going that way (and when I do work on my own builds, I ignore that option).  I don't think that was a papering over weak powersets move on the original devs' parts though, just what a lot of players who don't wanna play anything but 50s go for.

I've looked at a number of builds where the poster will think their build is top notch, only to realize the endurance recovery is too low to be of any real utility unless they're using the recovery serum from p2w, and/or ageless, or relying on team buffs. 

I finally found a way to realize the shortcomings of these builds before actually building them - noting the "misc. effects", where Recovery is contrasted with End drain. 

I aim for 2.00/s more recovery than end drain. This build isn't quite there, as we can see. But, +2 let's me fight with sprint and Superspeed on. So, in missions, I can turn off SS or sprint and be okay. Call me crazy, but I hate turning off toggles. Even sprint or SS. I will, if I have to, but I'd rather just keep them on. My tanks, I'll turn it off to keep the threat level higher, but the rest...I aim to keep them on. Just one less thing I have to be concerned with if I make the build properly. 

So, I keep tinkering until I can keep the defense numbers high and improve the end recovery. 

[Clave Dark 5]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

I finally found a way to realize the shortcomings of these builds before actually building them - noting the "misc. effects", where Recovery is contrasted with End drain.  I aim for 2.00/s more recovery than end drain.

That's a good rule of thumb, I'll have to remember that.  (My recent stalker build was fine by the time he got to 50, I think he was close to 4/sec.)

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

I've looked at a number of builds where the poster will think their build is top notch, only to realize the endurance recovery is too low to be of any real utility unless they're using the recovery serum from p2w, and/or ageless, or relying on team buffs. 

I finally found a way to realize the shortcomings of these builds before actually building them - noting the "misc. effects", where Recovery is contrasted with End drain. 

I aim for 2.00/s more recovery than end drain. This build isn't quite there, as we can see. But, +2 let's me fight with sprint and Superspeed on. So, in missions, I can turn off SS or sprint and be okay. Call me crazy, but I hate turning off toggles. Even sprint or SS. I will, if I have to, but I'd rather just keep them on. My tanks, I'll turn it off to keep the threat level higher, but the rest...I aim to keep them on. Just one less thing I have to be concerned with if I make the build properly. 

So, I keep tinkering until I can keep the defense numbers high and improve the end recovery. 

You don't use "View Totals" like it says here? ^^^

 

[Greycat]

On 8/12/2022 at 12:49 PM, EmperorSteele said:

Some of y'all take your characters' backstories and your own creativity WAY too seriously. But whatevs.

 

I've played this since issue 3. RP and my own cooperative worldbuilding with my friends - IE, our backstories and continuing stories - are what keep me going here instead of "let's watch Flight Simulator download another three hours again."

 

[Grouchybeast]

17 hours ago, Black Talon said:

It's my hope that, one day, a sweeping change will remake HC and that the Incarnate system will become something not too much different from the advancements the characters make during their 1-50 run. 

 

They've effectively done this already.  There's no need to interact with the 'official' Incarnate storyline at all any more.  Incarnate XP starts accumulating automatically once you hit level 50 and goes into unlocking your incarnate slots until they're all unlocked, at which point it stops dropping.  Threads and shards drop in normal content, non-Incarnate top-end TF drop Alpha components, and Vet levels award threads and emp merits which can be used to craft other components.  It's slower than running trials but perfectly viable.

[tidge]

I truly dislike the retcon aspect of the Incarnate Lore. The only "incarnate" arc that I really enjoy from a story PoV is the one offered by Mortimer Kal... there is something vaguely satisfying about pwning Positron when I know he's destined to jabber at me in the Mender Remiel arc.

[Snarky]

A lot has been said about incarnate effects of 50.  There are big (not as big as incarnate powers and level shift) advantages to a 50 in terms of build opportunities as well. Purple and Superior Winter/Archetype enhancers become available.  This almost always is the final push to a seamless build in at least one category as well as sweetening the entire build overall.  
 

For me I always felt the build was the first power bump in the 50, the level shift second, then some of the incarnate powers start to help.  A full suite of maxed incarnate powers is a beautiful thing as well.  But everything relies on the build.  And always, always, always knowing how to play the character 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Snarky

[Ukase]

On 8/13/2022 at 9:34 AM, Bionic_Flea said:

You don't use "View Totals" like it says here? ^^^

 

Nope! Never noticed it before! 

[biostem]

On 8/12/2022 at 11:56 AM, Marshal_General said:

Endurance is the main one.

Too many times have I seen builds that state once you get to incarnate levels and get X, your problems will go away.

People are averse to slotting end redux in everything.  They'd rather look to "meta-fixes" such as cardiac or IOs that grant additional recovery/end.

[JasperStone]

sigh ... how many actually read the question  and responded to it.

Few.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

People are averse to slotting end redux in everything.  They'd rather look to "meta-fixes" such as cardiac or IOs that grant additional recovery/end.

 

I've had builds where double End Redux in everything wasn't preventing hemorrhaging endurance. Came very close to abandoning what went on to be my favorite Tank because he was a virtual black hole of endurance consumption. Some powersets are quite unfriendly along the way (looking hard at you Radiation Melee--a powerset which on every character I have ever played it on has been problematic*).

 

* I cannot even begin to imagine how punishing Radiation Melee and Dark Armor would be when combined.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

I've had builds where double End Redux in everything wasn't preventing hemorrhaging endurance. Came very close to abandoning what went on to be my favorite Tank because he was a virtual black hole of endurance consumption. Some powersets are quite unfriendly along the way (looking hard at you Radiation Melee--a powerset which on every character I have ever played it on has been problematic*).

 

* I cannot even begin to imagine how punishing Radiation Melee and Dark Armor would be when combined.

I don't disagree that several sets are very end-unfriendly.  That being said, there are ways to mitigate the issue, (some obviously being more or less preferable to permanent to others).

[Erratic1]

32 minutes ago, biostem said:

I don't disagree that several sets are very end-unfriendly.  That being said, there are ways to mitigate the issue, (some obviously being more or less preferable to permanent to others).

 

My solution tends to be suffering until submitting to slotting IOs (which admittedly is not using Incarnates but isn't exactly doing a pure SO build either).

Edited August 16, 2022 by Erratic1

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, JasperStone said:

sigh ... how many actually read the question  and responded to it.

Few.

 

At least some people are responding with how they feel about something, and that's good enough for me.

I'm reading their replies and happy that they took time to respond even if it's mostly incarnate and RP focused replies focused on lore or ignoring lore.

[biostem]

2 hours ago, JasperStone said:

sigh ... how many actually read the question  and responded to it.

Few.

sigh... how many people follow the nuances of communication and all the meandering directions a conversation can take.

Few.

[blue4333]

Team context

A huge group of people in the forums say Incarnates take away all the fun where in reality, lowbies would love the incarnates for carrying them in an endgame taskforce or 50 radio missions.

 

Lore wise

It's a bit icky to be roleplaying an Incarnate, it's a tag that already says your character is more powerful than their peer. Leaning a bit towards god-modding and mary-sue there.

[JasperStone]

13 hours ago, biostem said:

sigh... how many people follow the nuances of communication and all the meandering directions a conversation can take.

Few.

I extend my apologies.

Had just come from a forum where something similar had happened, and the responses to the OP had nothing to do with the OP.

 

The nature of my job requires/demands following the nuances of communication and all its meandering directions.

I had just reached my limit.

[Coyotedancer]

Thread drift happens. It's just the nature of the beast.