Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[sbloyd]

I tried pvp here once, as team filler in a group v group match. America's Angel left me a smear on the wall, because I had no idea what I was doing. Does this make pvp bad?

 

No. It's one of those parts of the game you have to learn as a thing unto itself, like marketeering or specific raids.

[The_Warpact]

As with anything it's a matter of perspective, opinion, and the interpretation of what has occured. I give no sympathy from complaining from either side. 

 

That being said the past stigma of Live pvp still seems to carry over to this day. Back then I would see something every week about "I got griefed" or "so and so jumped me in Warburg its not fair I was badging". Fast forward and strangely enough I don't see these posts these days but, still past history comes to haunt people whenever any post brings up pvp then it's the same shit all over again.

 

 

[Excraft]

2 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

sounds identical to the pro-AE crowd during the beta server feedback threads

 

And the pro-nerf anti-AE farming crowd is so much better.  lol Give me a break.  I've never seen a more intolerant group of people in my life than those who want to nerf everything having to do with AE.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Excraft

[Ukase]

3 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

Well, you're soloing Ghost Widow. So you're character is probably pretty tough, no?

Should they then wait for you to finish, and then duel you one at a time? What if you killed the AV and then turned around and ran out lol?

Zone pvp has nothing to do with fairness or balance, and it's generally imo the worst type of pvp in any game I've played (other than like a Battle Royale style game).

But the vast majority of complaints about coh pvp treat the zones as if they are representative of everything.

In context, when I was badging, it's always problematic recruiting for assistance, because once you do - the folks that like to pvp see the recruiting message and may be inclined to lay in wait. So, I would often use the Heavy in the zone, along with a vanguard HVAS, my lore pets and any other temp pet I had to assist. 

My characters are generally leaning more towards survivability than dps, although I do try to find a good balance. When I'd get zerged by several pvpers, I completely understand the risks - it's just annoying to have to stop what I'm doing, and come back later. 

As for what I'd have preferred they do - pvp each other. It's 4 of 'em. Let them tackle each other. I'm there to tackle the AVs and such. But, them's the breaks. It's a pvp zone. Just don't brag about it when it's 4 on one. 

[Troo]

 

@The_Warpact look what you have wrought. "I have no easy answer on how to proceed, but..  ,,I know something is seriously wrong."

 

 

@Neiska don't forget Gladiator matches.

 

 

@Trike you're not wrong about a lot of effort going into PvP and it magnifying balance issues that ended up directly and/or indirectly impacting PvE.

(I still liked PvP and the PvP zones)

 

 

@battlewraith I agree that SO & Hami PvP which was closer rule wise to PvE was better and more inclusive.

 

 

@Ukase rant on fella. rant on.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Troo

[Luminara]

57 minutes ago, Troo said:

@The_Warpact look what you have wrought.

[Ironblade]

5 hours ago, Ukase said:

I can't say that I've ever experienced anything worse than this - BUT - it is this "standard" trash talk you speak of that I do not desire or require. It's completely unnecessary.

In my opinion, not everyone who engages in PvP is a 'real PvP'er'.  There are real PvP'ers and there are bullies/gankers/morons.

It's the morons who trash talk.  It's the morons who kill you repeatedly just to be annoying.  It's the morons who camp.

 

In my time collecting badges in PvP zones, I've run into plenty of both.  The morons behave like stupid children.  The real PvP'ers will politely wipe the floor with you and then, if you ask, discuss your build and tactics.  Sometimes I even win.  I remember beating one PvP'er and he commented that he didn't know I PvP'ed (I knew him from the forums).  I said that I didn't and that I was only there for the badges.  He said something like, "Wow, nice fight, then.  I'll leave you to it."

 

That's a real PvP'er.  The toxic morons in the PvP zones are just toxic morons no matter where you run into them.

[TerroirNoir]

1 minute ago, Ironblade said:

The toxic morons in the PvP zones are just toxic morons no matter where you run into them.

So true.

 

Unfortunately, these are the ones who shout the loudest and give others a bad name.

 

I did Warburg for nukes a while back and had a lovely chat with one of the decent PVPers, who had watched and knew I was just rescuing scientists, and they were nice enough to broadcast to me that my scientist was lost and looking for me.  They waited by her and I collected her again before the PVPer popped off to "find some real competition", because ganking a badger was not their idea of fun.

[Ironblade]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

In context, when I was badging, it's always problematic recruiting for assistance, because once you do - the folks that like to pvp see the recruiting message and may be inclined to lay in wait. So, I would often use the Heavy in the zone, along with a vanguard HVAS, my lore pets and any other temp pet I had to assist.

Pro tip.  Recruit secretly.

 

I got all of them on my scrapper by having my girlfriend log in a tank and I logged in my rad defender on my second account.  We mentioned what we were doing to some friends on Discord and couple more came along with their badgers.  We had all of one alignment in under 30 minutes then switched alignments and got the rest of them.

[ForeverLaxx]

10 hours ago, Ukase said:

it is this "standard" trash talk you speak of that I do not desire or require. It's completely unnecessary.

And yet it accompanies almost anything people choose to compete in. Sports, games, even art or science competitions. I've experienced it all at every competitive venue I've competed in. It's just human nature, but pretending PvP is some kind of weird toxic outlier for containing one of the constants of competition is bizarre to me. It's all part of the mental game and some people can't deal with it. That's fine, but don't talk down to people with thicker skin just because you can't hang.

[Saikochoro]

On 8/30/2022 at 7:06 AM, ShardWarrior said:

 

Completely agree on this point and would add that it is more than clear rules are in no way applied evenly.  Very sad to see and in my opinion this kind of unfriendly, unwelcoming environment is doing more harm than good. 

100% agree. Early on I joined in with the nothing being done is bad crowd. I then felt what some of the others felt in being shouted down for having unfavorable opinions. I then observed that there is a double standard applied especially in beta testing. Those that agree with all the devs decisions often get a pass even when being antagonistic. Those that disagree with the devs are moderated.
 

It’s really not the actual changes that have caused me to scale back my interest in the game. It is the double standard that is applied and the backlash from part of the community and the devs themselves when people express discontent. 
 

That and the fun police mentality.

 

To each their own though. I’m genuinely happy for the people that still very much enjoy the game and the direction it has taken. 

[ForeverLaxx]

12 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

So understand that anyone who says that PvPers aren't insulting and abusive is trying to gaslight you.

Gaslighting? Seriously?

 

Gaslighting would be telling you that the only reason you don't like PvP is because you don't like knowing how unskilled you actually are. Keep in mind I'm not actually saying this, so don't fly off the handle for it. Using my words of "standard trash talk" to spin up a narrative about gaslighting, though? I'd thank you to not use my words in such a manner particularly because "standard trash talk" is most often just generic schoolyard insults that shouldn't cause such a vitriolic reaction. Why people get irrationally angry over a "your mom"-level insult amazes me.

 

My post was to point out that for every single case of someone calling PvP a cesspool, I can recall the same or worse coming from players in PvE. I do a ton of both. I'm a min/maxer in both. I tend to prefer my time in PvP to my time in PvE, but I don't slouch at either. I have a lot of PvP experience in games and not just fighting or FPS games. I invade in Dark Souls, I PvP in MMOs, I've been on competitive sports teams, soccer tournaments, played in multiple card game or chess tournaments, submitted art for scholarship competitions, wrote papers and science reports for review to win scholarships, etc. In all of these, yes, even the art and science-related ones, there were a handful (and sometimes more) people talking down to everyone around them, scoffing at a presentation, or trying to get inside your head so you'd make a mistake and lose.

 

The same thing happens in PvE -- speedrunning, high-end content like raids, hell, even RP circles have the same level of elitism and criticism towards outsiders that PvP does. Just ask Wyrmrest Accord how they feel about Moonguard, or how some people feel about RPers who fill their background information with how big their dong is, what their kinks are, or how much they hate catgirls. How about the guy that sends you "unsolicited help" about your character build because you picked a power that they think is trash, or are playing a powerset they think is a waste of time? Or worse, the guy who just openly mocks all characters who roll Empathy in team chat because "Empathy sucks" and is only doing so because he knows you're an Empath and it will annoy you into quitting the team? And let's not forget the YouTube guy posted months ago who went into a Hami Raid with the express purpose of disrupting it just so he could make an extremely biased and false video in order to tell everyone that City of Heroes (and Homecoming specifically) is a terrible game and a waste of time with terrible people playing it.

 

The reason I posted my original comment on the matter was to point out that PvE is just as much of a "cesspool" of elitism that PvP is. The only difference is that someone in PvP can take direct action against your character, and it's really on you if you take that personal. I get some people don't like PvP, but I never understand the reasoning and incessant desire to vilify people who do enjoy direct competition against another player. Players are way more interesting to fight than AI, and it's not even close. Just as PvE isn't all sunshine and rainbows, PvP isn't all doom and gloom.

[Xiddo]

17 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

I've never seen a more intolerant group of people in my life than those who want to nerf everything having to do with AE.

Imagine saying this in 2022.

[arcane]

23 hours ago, Excraft said:

I've never seen a more intolerant group of people in my life than those who want to nerf everything having to do with AE.

You REALLY need to go outside homie. I’m worried about you.

[PeregrineFalcon]

6 hours ago, Xiddo said:

Imagine saying this in 2022.

Imagine thinking that people can't be intolerant in 2022.

[Xiddo]

11 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Imagine thinking that people can't be intolerant in 2022.

I think you missed my point... I am very aware that people can be intolerant in 2022. I just think the idea that someone hasn't seen a more intolerant group of people than those who "want to nerf everything having to do with AE" is - plainly - stupid and that a little bit of perspective is needed. In whatever year.

@arcane put it very well.
 

1 hour ago, arcane said:

You REALLY need to go outside homie. I’m worried about you.

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Xiddo
Spelling

[ivanhedgehog]

Its pretty obvious he means in an in coh game setting. This game is not what it was during live with a community that welcomed different playstyles. We saw that with only positive feedback being allowed and a dismissal of peoples concerns.

[Xiddo]

Yeah I know dw. Just feel like hyperbole is a pretty good mirror to hyperbole 🙂 Lotta dramatic statements being thrown around and wanted to show why its a bit silly to get so worked up over a game.

[Luminara]

13 minutes ago, Xiddo said:

dramatic

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

27 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Its pretty obvious he means in an in coh game setting. This game is not what it was during live with a community that welcomed different playstyles. We saw that with only positive feedback being allowed and a dismissal of peoples concerns.

Try giving negative feedback in the feedback threads on this forum and see how many of your concerns get dismissed as the mods delete your posts while allowing the insulting posts from the dev defenders to remain.

 

And yes, I am aware that he meant within the CoH game setting. That's also how I meant it, and he's not wrong. The people who do want to nerf everything in conjunction with the AE are very intolerant of other opinions.

[Ukase]

18 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

And yet it accompanies almost anything people choose to compete in. Sports, games, even art or science competitions. I've experienced it all at every competitive venue I've competed in. It's just human nature, but pretending PvP is some kind of weird toxic outlier for containing one of the constants of competition is bizarre to me. It's all part of the mental game and some people can't deal with it. That's fine, but don't talk down to people with thicker skin just because you can't hang.

I talk "down" to anyone who lowers themselves with a lack of respect shown towards me. I simply would not accept that trash talk in real life, nor will I accept it in game. I have no issues about putting knots on someone's forehead if they don't give me the respect I deserve. Life is too short to be around people who disrespect you. 

You're using this competition analogy like it lines up. It doesn't. If you look at my post in context, it's clear that I'm not there to compete, except against other badgers, in a fashion. And as badgers, most of us are more supportive than competitive. 

A badger who goes into RV is not there to compete. Now, someone like me may find themselves doing pvp whether they want to or not - but when they do not, it's not competition. It's just annoying. And in that context, trash talk is ill-mannered and rude. There's no basis for comparing the thickness of skin. If you like pvp and see a badger in there, sure, everyone is fair game. But that trash talk is just pointless. It serves nobody any purpose, and it certainly doesn't motivate me to pvp. It just motivates me to leave and come back later. 

When people are friends, and they compete, sure, there's banter and some mind games. PvP is not the same thing in most cases, because there is no relationship. And because of that, trash talk is not really "the norm". It's done by small-minded people, who are trying to feel bigger than they are. At least, that's my opinion. Yours is obviously different. And I find your way of thinking every bit as bizarre. It's all good. 

[battlewraith]

5 hours ago, Ukase said:

I talk "down" to anyone who lowers themselves with a lack of respect shown towards me. I simply would not accept that trash talk in real life, nor will I accept it in game. I have no issues about putting knots on someone's forehead if they don't give me the respect I deserve. Life is too short to be around people who disrespect you. 

 

That's one of the joys of pvp: if someone trash talks you, you can do something about it. And it's appropriate. In real life, I am not going to punch somebody out because they didn't give me the respect I think I deserve. 

 

Whether or not you like trash talk in competitive ventures, it's going to happen. The same way any time you have social gatherings with human beings, there is going to be litter. If I'm organizing a social event, I can provide garbage cans and admonish people not to litter. But until I develop mind control powers, I can't stop littering from happening. But I view that as an issue related to how human beings are. Not an issue related to an outdoor concert, or a Santa Claus parade, or whatever event drew people together at that location. Likewise, I view complaints about abuse and whatnot in pvp zones as a smokescreen that is a cover for other issues. 

 

Personally, I learned very quickly not to say anything to people I didn't know in a pvp zone. Despite that, it was very common in the early days of zone pvp for people to fly of the handle, call me a griefer, report me for harassing them (supposedly, nothing ever happened), insult my mother, etc. 

[Ukase]

31 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

That's one of the joys of pvp: if someone trash talks you, you can do something about it.

This isn't always true. In fact, for most, it's rarely true. 
PvP takes time and effort to determine the differences between it and pve. I play 50+3 levels on a character and get into RV - and my character is not very much like it was in pve. Much has changed. Regen/recovery has changed. Resists and defenses have changed. It's an entirely different character. 

Some builds, like a blaster, can usually handle this change okay - as most blasters don't really have much by way of defense or resistances. But tanks, at least mine, are built to cap resists in most cases, unless it's a defensive armor, like Shield. 

When they changed the way my characters worked - I put pvp behind me. And I won't pick it up again primarily because of that. So, you're wrong. I can't do much about it, other than leave. The few times I did fight back - they run away when they're close to losing. I don't have multiple travel powers, and it's beyond ridiculous to get them just for an hour or two's worth of badging. Can't catch 'em, so even if I could win, I can't win, because they don't want to actually pvp. They want to clobber someone, and then run away when they can't. It just makes no sense with travel suppression. 

I am not crying foul. They didn't do anything wrong by tackling me. I'm just saying it's annoying and that the trash talk that sometimes follows is simply unnecessary and serves no purpose, other than to irritate someone, probably hoping they'll stick around and try to "show" them. Either way - it creates a negative effect for me, and I'd rather it not happen. 

Hopefully, it will be years before they put any more badges in pvp zones. 

[Grouchybeast]

44 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

That's one of the joys of pvp: if someone trash talks you, you can do something about it. And it's appropriate.

 

For example, avoid playing PVP games in the future, an approach that's worked brilliantly for me.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

This isn't always true. In fact, for most, it's rarely true. 
PvP takes time and effort to determine the differences between it and pve. I play 50+3 levels on a character and get into RV - and my character is not very much like it was in pve.

 

Okay, so you have a 50+3  character--obviously you put an effort into getting the character that far in pve. But you don't want to make any effort setting that character up for a zone. Which is fine but it's not an issue of I can't do anything. It's simply that you don't want to bother actually doing any preparation. A tank especially shouldn't be dying to zone randos unless it's actually an arena team or something.  You have additional character slots and I believe that you have plenty of resources. Pvp builds are more strict than pve builds, but  there's plenty of info on the forums about what to build for. 

 

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

Hopefully, it will be years before they put any more badges in pvp zones.

 

It's a moot point anyway. It's trivially easy to get these badges now.