A Discussion on the State of Development Regarding Gold Side

[Wiseheart]

Hello everybody! This is my first time ever posting here on the forums despite being a player since the Live days. This is a topic that me and my wife, along with several other supergroup members were discussing concerning Gold Side, in general, and it's the overall lack of attention that was given to it by the original developers of CoX.

One of the things that we discussed was an overall... Dissatisfaction, in short terms, with the lack of content that was implemented in Praetoria, with it being a quick 1-20 streak that ended in people being simply reintroduced into the main folds of the game, and rolling ourselves back into red or blue side. That being said, the introduction of First Ward and Night Ward to the game was refreshing, as it continued utilizing the groundwork that they had laid down with the story of the game... but once again, post-Night Ward, there isn't really a "end-game" option for Gold characters; This is further hindered by the necessity of choosing Blue or Red.

So a few ideas to roll around; What if Gold Side was given a refreshing coat of paint, and fleshed out through level 50, with it's own T/SF's? Implementation of wider story arcs, zone events where Loyalist and Resistance players would have to race to complete objectives, possibly even maintaining L/R factions as alignments in themselves, as opposed to diverting Gold characters back into the main game?

Here's where most of this is coming from; Gold was introduced with big hopes back in 2010, but the range on what was done with the project was limited, in how it simply reinforced the pathway to one of the two main forces in Primal Earth - Heroes and Villains. The whole idea was that "there's grey between black and white", but if you start grey, and the progression simply leads you to black or white, then that kinda avoids the point of having a "half-way" alignment that is more morally restricted than a villain, but more careless about the well-being of others than a Hero. I think, truly, that this should be expanded and worked on, and developed through into it's own 1-50 story-line that players get to enjoy, instead of a rough attempt at introducing a "middle alignment" that ends up becoming one of the other two, anyway.

Thanks for reading, I would love to get feedback from other players, and see if we can begin working on a bigger thread discussion for the Homecoming team to take notes from. Thank you so much!

-Hades Dai Bodatta
@Tallon Ventellox, Justice Server, Live
@Juche Gang, Excelsior Server, Homecoming

[Glacier Peak]

Looks like all we'd need is a volunteer developer who is exclusively interested in producing all of the content you are suggesting and some how makes that content congruent with the story conclusion of Goldside that is already canon to the game. 

[Rudra]

Gold side isn't grey. Not any more than red or blue side. Vigilantes are more evil/vicious than villains and rogues are downright honorable. So you see the same dynamics in the Rogue Isles and Paragon City that you see in Praetoria. Praetoria just includes the transitions in single player only missions at the end of the arcs.

 

And Praetoria doesn't have end game content because it is the end game content. They are the big bads of the incarnate trials that the Primals are trying to keep from destroying Primal Earth. (Mostly just the Primal supers, but noone wants Tyrant ruling Primal Earth.) As the story goes currently, the only end game content I can see for Praetoria is to take part in the invasion and help conquer Primal Earth. And Praetoria is already the one that is destroyed in that feud. (Because of Tyrant and Hamidon, not the Primals undercutting the invasion by attacking the BAF, Lambda Sector, or discovering that Tyrant is actually working with Hamidon in a way. In fact, it his Tyrant's invasion of Primal Earth, his breaking his vow to Hamidon to show Hamidon that humanity is better than the despoiling marauders Hamidon takes humanity for, that causes Hamidon to go active again and crush Praetoria.)

 

Going Primal lets the Praetorian character either try to resolve the problem between Praetorian and Primal Earths or grow their personal power and ambition without the shackles of Tyrant and his Praetors imposed on them. However, your post is not the only request to be found on the forums asking for gold side content that goes all the way to 50. So here is a question. What kind of content would you like to see post Night Ward to get to 50? Do you have any specific ideas? Posing specific ideas is easier for others to understand and gives an indication of where you would like to see things go. So what kind of post-Night Ward content would you like?

[Darmian]

I'm a 100 percent Gold Side advocate (icon is my level 50 Gold only Loyalist) and like your ideas and am interested in subscribing to your publication.

[Disruptor]

This reminds me back when Going Rogue was first announced my friend and I who had stopped playing came up with toon names and builds with the idea of leveling to max purely on gold side, it wasn't until we learned it was only 1-20 and that we gave up on that idea.

 

We were both going to run Duel Pistol Corrs

Edited November 27, 2022 by Disruptor

[Grouchybeast]

I would love to see more Goldside content.  At the very least, stretching the zone level ranges to make levelling a character goldside smoother would be great.

[Greycat]

Yeah, you're running into timeline/lore issues with expanding this (though there's already odd timeline issues, if you go with "1-50 is linear.") And I *really* wouldn't call it a lack of attention to gold side - well, to Praetoria in general. Players were hitting "Praetorian burnout" with everything seeming to focus on them, the war, all the Incarnate content (raids, at least, which for a while *were* all the incarnate content) dealing with Praetoria, Praetoria, Praetoria.

 

If the game hadn't been canceled?

 

... eh, well, we'd have that awful Battalion storyline. And Tyrant taking Statesman's place. ANd ... blah. But there might at some point in the last ... decade... have been some sort of return to it. Granted, you'd be returning to a nuked and/or Hamidon-infested wilderness stepping outside of Last Bastion... the only thing that really comes to mind to do (other than try to claw back some land and figure out something that seems like safety) is preventing primal and prae Hamidon from meeting and comparing notes.

[Wiseheart]

Sorry for the lack of response, been a busy week. I can see the issues with the expansion on timelines. I just think it would be cool if we saw an introduction to a "Force" system, in Gold side, where we could get tasked by Chimera, Nightstar, Siege, Dominatrix, and made violent incursions into Primal Earth. That being said, the storyline is not entirely congruent and straight-forward, as is, unless you go directly in order through Ouro, so I think it would have less impact than it would for other games... That being said, the new lines would have to be functionally canon.

[TheZag]

Several story arcs have something to the effect of 'these events take place in this time frame'.  But its still difficult to add content to a city that has been destroyed.  Heroes and villains basically travel back in time when they visit praetoria while its the present for gold siders.

 

New content would need to be out of timeline order as mentioned above or have some meddling by ouro where tyrant doesnt blow up the city.

 

[BurtHutt]

I can't see anything being done with Goldside. Honestly, it was an awful idea in my opinion for a variety of reasons but the biggest reason: it divided the playerbase yet again. When Going Rogue came out, the game had lost a lot of players. Sure, tons came back for GR but, obviously, didn't stay. I wouldn't even try to provide all of the possible explanations but bottom line: the player population continued to falter after the GR bump.

 

What to do now? I don't know. Most players don't go Goldside too often. Dev resources are limited and there is no way they can add tons of content let alone address gold, blue and red.

 

Suggestions:

 

1) Lots of  new content be added in co-op zones. Maybe make The Hollows co-op? So content could be added to Pocket D, RWZ, Cim, Kalisti Wharf etc. So, any new SF/TF/trials etc be accessed by all players. 

 

2) Leverage the players to use AE to make arcs for each side. 

 

The devs can't keep up with demand and this is my suggestion to help implement more content for all sides. I can't see the devs prioritizing Gold when so few play it. 

 

I am curious to hear how others would like to address the limited resources issue. I know I keep beating the AE/player made content and lots are in support...but nothing has happened with it in the almost 3 years I've been suggesting it....are there other options peeps would like to suggest?

Edited November 29, 2022 by BurtHutt

[Astralock]

Back around 2008, Paragon Studios pitched a City of Heroes 2 to NCsoft, utilizing the Unreal Engine 3, with a bunch of new ideas, as they were not happy with the already old by that point Cryptic Engine and felt increasingly hamstrung by it.  Unfortunately, NCsoft denied the CoH 2 pitch.  So, Paragon Studios took a lot of their ideas for CoH 2, and put as much of it as the aging Cryptic Engine could handle into a new expansion for CoH... Going Rogue.

 

Gold side was originally only meant to be the original six zones.  First Ward and Night Ward were not in the cards.  But quite a few players liked Praetoria and were vocal about it, so Paragon Studios added the two additional zones to flesh gold side out.  They had plans in the works for a level 40+ zone called Neo-Tokyo (hinted at in the Neutropolis story arcs), where you'd go see what the state of Praetorian Earth was like outside of North America, and Hamidon's effect in Asia.  Then there'd be a new Incarnate-only zone added in Praetoria, where you face off against the Praetorian Hamidon himself to save Praetorian Earth, in a new Incarnate-only Hamidon raid to finally conclude the story of Praetoria.

 

Unfortunately, both the Paragon Studios developers and the City of Heroes player base as a whole developed Praetoria fatigue.  So, Paragon Studios decided to push off the level 40+ Neo-Tokyo zone to around Issue 29, and the Incarnate-only Praetorian Hamidon raid zone to around Issue 30, and go do the Battalion story line in Issues 25 through 28.

 

You know what happened.

 

It's a shame that we never got to see either zone.  Neo-Tokyo sounded very cyberpunk.  Alas.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Astralock

[plainguy]

I thought some players figured out or there might have been some changes that allowed you to stay gold and level to 50. 
I recall seeing a post a while back regarding this. 
Did some searching but couldn't find the work around thread, I thought I seen..

 

[Darmian]

On 12/8/2022 at 12:24 AM, plainguy said:

I thought some players figured out or there might have been some changes that allowed you to stay gold and level to 50. 
I recall seeing a post a while back regarding this. 
Did some searching but couldn't find the work around thread, I thought I seen..

 

Well, there weren't any changes, I just did it.  Once you've worked your way through as much as you can of Nova Praetoria/Imperial City/Neutropolis, you can make your way to First Ward via the Doorkeeper in Underground Imperial, and off out into there for more Praetorian adventure.  That will lead you on to Night Ward.  You can definitely get to 40 by the end of Night Ward.  If you have access to a Pillar of Ice and Flame in a base you can do all the Gold Side stuff you missed.  It's pretty hard to do it with team mates though unless they're also Gold.  I mean it can be done, it's just hella fiddly.

 

After that you can also take part in Summer Block Busters if they're run from Echo Plaza/Pocket D/Somewhere in Praetoria.  You just need to be level 15 to join.  You can also do Cathedral of Pain from the same areas, and if you make it to 50 you can do the Belladonna Vetrano arcs from your base crystal again.  Not to mention any of the Incarnate Trials, provided they start from the limited selection of areas listed.

 

AE story arcs are also available if you're not farming your way up.

 

And speaking of which, I have two trilogies of pre War Gold AEs in my sig (see sig). Set at levels 19 to 25.  They're supposed to tie in to canon and fill a gap between Neutropolis and First Ward.  One Loyalist and One Resistance.

 

The seasonal events are always available too.  To counteract the levels of the zone in a Trick or Treat for instance, take a mission from the Pillar of Ice and Fire in your base that exemps you down to level 1 to 20, then just don't do it. Just knock on doors instead and the monsters spawn.

 

As for anything else?  Well, who knows what the Devs are planning.

 

Edit: Nearly forgot, there's the GM Seed of Hamidon in First Ward you can do if you can get on a team/league for it. Plus there's the three zone events across Nova/Imperial/Neutropolis as well.

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Darmian

[UltraAlt]

On 11/29/2022 at 3:43 PM, BurtHutt said:

I am curious to hear how others would like to address the limited resources issue.

 

I think that the DEVs should work on what they want to work on.

I think that they will be more motivated to do that than to work on content that they aren't interested in.

They are volunteers after all.

[srmalloy]

11 hours ago, Darmian said:

To counteract the levels of the zone in a Trick or Treat for instance, take a mission from the Pillar of Ice and Fire in your base that exemps you down to level 1 to 20, then just don't do it.

That is an ingenious way to address the problem of outleveling a zone for ToT, and if it weren't for the issue of not being able to modify your team once started, would be ideal. Still, if you just want to solo, it's a very clever idea.

[Bionic_Flea]

I agree that Goldside needs a little bit more content to allow players to make it to 50 without going red or blue.  I know that it CAN be done, as described by Darmian, because I have a "pure" level 50 Preatorian on another server.

 

But I thought that a level 35-50 TF or Trial involving the Avatar, Seed, and Hamidon himself might be the way to go.

 

 

[JasperStone]

On 12/13/2022 at 7:38 PM, Darmian said:

Well, there weren't any changes, I just did it.  Once you've worked your way through as much as you can of Nova Praetoria/Imperial City/Neutropolis, you can make your way to First Ward via the Doorkeeper in Underground Imperial, and off out into there for more Praetorian adventure.  That will lead you on to Night Ward.  You can definitely get to 40 by the end of Night Ward.  If you have access to a Pillar of Ice and Flame in a base you can do all the Gold Side stuff you missed.  It's pretty hard to do it with team mates though unless they're also Gold.  I mean it can be done, it's just hella fiddly.

 

After that you can also take part in Summer Block Busters if they're run from Echo Plaza/Pocket D/Somewhere in Praetoria.  You just need to be level 15 to join.  You can also do Cathedral of Pain from the same areas, and if you make it to 50 you can do the Belladonna Vetrano arcs from your base crystal again.  Not to mention any of the Incarnate Trials, provided they start from the limited selection of areas listed.

 

AE story arcs are also available if you're not farming your way up.

 

And speaking of which, I have two trilogies of pre War Gold AEs in my sig (see sig). Set at levels 19 to 25.  They're supposed to tie in to canon and fill a gap between Neutropolis and First Ward.  One Loyalist and One Resistance.

 

The seasonal events are always available too.  To counteract the levels of the zone in a Trick or Treat for instance, take a mission from the Pillar of Ice and Fire in your base that exemps you down to level 1 to 20, then just don't do it. Just knock on doors instead and the monsters spawn.

 

As for anything else?  Well, who knows what the Devs are planning.

 

Edit: Nearly forgot, there's the GM Seed of Hamidon in First Ward you can do if you can get on a team/league for it. Plus there's the three zone events across Nova/Imperial/Neutropolis as well.

 

So Rikti Warzone is out? 

[Darmian]

5 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

So Rikti Warzone is out? 

Yep, afraid so.  Anywhere that isn't one of the 5 Praetoria zones¹, Echo Plaza or Pocket D.  Obviously CoP and the Incarnate Trials are accessed from the LFG but have to be started from one of those places.

 

And as a dedicated Praetorian Player it bugs me that I can't access RWZ more than any other!  Not for the MSR and all that, but for the Number Six arc.  It means there's a part of Praetoria that no Praetorian can get to!

 

¹ Well, 8 if you include the Undergrounds for Nova Praetoria/Imperial City/Neutropolis. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Darmian

[lemming]

50 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Yep, afraid so.  Anywhere that isn't one of the 5 Praetoria zones¹, Echo Plaza or Pocket D.  Obviously CoP and the Incarnate Trials are accessed from the LFG but have to be started from one of those places.

 

And as a dedicated Praetorian Player it bugs me that I can't access RWZ more than any other!  Not for the MSR and all that, but for the Number Six arc.  It means there's a part of Praetoria that no Praetorian can get to!

 

¹ Well, 8 if you include the Undergrounds for Nova Praetoria/Imperial City/Neutropolis. 

Nine if you include the winter forest where Praetorians can get the shop keeper badge

[Darmian]

3 minutes ago, lemming said:

Nine if you include the winter forest where Praetorians can get the shop keeper badge

True, but only if you're Resistance!  And you can get the Commuter Badge in Spooky Atlas via Null the Gull if you're Resistance.

 

Edit:  You can GO to the Winter Forest if you're Loyalist, but you can't get the badge, same with Spooky Atlas.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Darmian

[Gerswin]

I have said this before in other places, but it really fits here as well. I think that the best way to get people interested in goldside content is to incentivize it. Every week there should be an ouroboros arc that gives 4x merit completion and maybe 2 prisms as reward kinda like the WST. This would undoubtedly bring traffic to the obscure goldside story arcs, and bring some population to the very cool goldside zones.

[lemming]

58 minutes ago, Darmian said:

True, but only if you're Resistance!  And you can get the Commuter Badge in Spooky Atlas via Null the Gull if you're Resistance.

 

Edit:  You can GO to the Winter Forest if you're Loyalist, but you can't get the badge, same with Spooky Atlas.

True.  And Loyalists can get the Pilot badge in Echo Plaza.

[BurtHutt]

On 12/14/2022 at 12:33 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

I think that the DEVs should work on what they want to work on.

I think that they will be more motivated to do that than to work on content that they aren't interested in.

They are volunteers after all.

I agree for the most part. And yes, they are volunteers. I am grateful that they're doing this. However, if you want to run this game and have players then it is essential that the players have a say. Otherwise players won't play here or they may have a lot leave. And that is fine too. All I'm saying is if you ignore the players then the result will probably be negative. 

 

 

[Rudra]

They don't seem to be ignoring the players. Given the sheer volume of player suggestions and comments, let alone the number of fixes still needed and updates to be made and tested, the devs are getting a surprising amount of things players ask for done.

 

Gold side never had much interest from the player base after initial release as far as I could tell. And incentivizing arcs to draw players gold side will then be followed by the request to incentivize arcs red side and blue side. Which will again leave gold side clamoring for something special beyond its increased challenge level and rapidity of side swapping compared to red/blue side to draw players over.

 

Edit: And considering how empty red side is compared to blue side, if gold side is going to have arcs made into incentives to go gold side, I hereby ask red side get the same treatment. Players already know about gold side missions/arcs, they just choose not to play it. Making new content for gold side would probably help draw players over, but again, only briefly until they get used to or disinterested in the new gold side content. It would still help players that prefer to be gold side, but the draw effect for other players would be temporary.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Rudra

[Cybersbe]

I don’t know how feasible it is to make it possible for praetorians to never go primal, but maybe tweaking the dialogue of certain quests to have more roleplaying options for people of Praetorian Origin?