I don't get why this is so much better than CO

[Sir Myshkin]

8 hours ago, Communistpenguin said:

I find block mechanics to be tiresome and to add nothing of value to the games I find them in.

Yes, we all know rolling is the superior method of evasion.

[ForeverLaxx]

Some people like dynamic/active combat, some people like combat based on dice rolls. For me it depends on the game and I find active combat where you're expected to manually dodge or block everything being thrown at you to be a huge hindrance when it's an MMO. Latency can be a major issue when performing the proper defense or mobility response due to the number of people and enemies you face, but what often ends up being worse is that you'll get people on your team that expect you to do the work that they don't want (ie; they force you to heal them through the fire instead of them just moving out of it).

 

I played a fair amount of CO when CoH was shut down (and a bit while CoH was still up because my brother preferred it at the time). While there are aspects about the character creator I wish we could replicate, like moving chest decals to other parts of the body or having more asymmetry with leg and arm accessories, the overall graphics of the game I couldn't get behind. Everyone is an oddly shaped bug-eyed something and I felt like a parody character because of it. But swinging back to the topic of combat, I just cannot stand CO's combat system. I hate having to charge up attacks, I hate having an auto-attack in a setting that shouldn't be about sustaining DPS, I hated having to mash buttons to break out of effects, and I did not like having to manually block or dodge things. Why have super powers to reduce incoming damage or heal it off if you're expected to just avoid it manually?

 

CoH's combat is more simple on the surface as everything is based on dice rolls, so things are going to hit or miss as soon as you hit the button. But because of that, you can actually rely on your defensive powers to do their job, showing that your super abilities are why you're avoiding damage instead of your twitch reactions. There are no latency concerns in this system either so you can more reliably know if you're in danger or not. This also lets you leverage certain quirks about how the system "tics" when affects are applied/dropped from you. Queuing up an attack against a Spectral Daemon Lord with his Chill of the Night aura on, you can get the game to land the hit roll before the aura affects you if you "joust" properly, which comes in real handy if you're melee and need that CC power to land to turn off said annoying aura. In the same manner, you can begin a jump around a corner and fire off a ranged attack to nullify most of the "root" that normally occurs when you fire an attack and pull mobs around a corner.

 

Believing that CoH's combat is just standing around and having a slugfest until the other guy falls over is an overly simplistic view of it.

[Parabola]

24 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Some people like dynamic/active combat, some people like combat based on dice rolls. For me it depends on the game and I find active combat where you're expected to manually dodge or block everything being thrown at you to be a huge hindrance when it's an MMO. Latency can be a major issue when performing the proper defense or mobility response due to the number of people and enemies you face, but what often ends up being worse is that you'll get people on your team that expect you to do the work that they don't want (ie; they force you to heal them through the fire instead of them just moving out of it).

This. There is a time and a place for active combat mechanics like blocks and dodges and in my opinion it isn't in mmo's. CoH combat still contains the odd element of active combat, mainly around positioning, but basing it on dice rolls brings the strategy of the build, and target and power prioritization to the fore and is appropriate to the medium.

 

I played a huge amount of Skyrim when CoH was gone and enjoyed playing in a different way there, there were strategic build elements but there were also the active combat mechanics. In the context of a single player offline game these were appropriate and in fact my preferred characters used dodging and blocking to make combat as reactive as possible. Different medium, different playstyle.

 

I've tried a couple of other mmo's with active combat mechanics and always found them strange experiences. It's like they are trying to be something they are not and I find them lacking as a result. Also active combat mechanics only really work when you are facing low numbers of enemies. The huge selling point of CoH is that we are constantly wading into a sea of enemies in big chaotic combat. How would dodging and blocking work when 16 enemies are hurling powers at you from all angles at the same time?

[Hyperstrike]

On 6/12/2019 at 1:50 PM, PaxArcana said:

 

I won't be buying any Lifetimes before games celebrate their 1st anniversary, anymore.

Buy a lifetime?

I traded product for a lifetime at GC...

[Hyperstrike]

On 7/2/2019 at 8:45 PM, biostem said:

7. Touching on the "double-edged sword" nature of CO, it is really hard to keep an enemy permanently locked down, and this includes taunts.  It is quite difficult to keep an enemy's attention in CO, which means that it is difficult for a "tank" to adequately protect their more squishy teammates.  This isn't a big deal if you're all playing freeform characters, as you just make sure to take a shield or heal, (unless you;re playing as one of the F2P ATs, which are more restrictive).

Noticed this too.
Then I built a heal/regen tank.

Jovian was absolutely insane.
Even stuff that's supposed to one-shot pretty much ANYTHING, I'd already regenerated/healed a survival buffer of HP by the time the attack finished scrubbing me with damage...

And then, one of the supporting powers was summarily nerfed (majorly altered in how it functioned).
Really, it doesn't affect the survivability.  It's just annoying that it happened.

 

 

[ZeeHero]

On 6/19/2020 at 11:06 PM, Primantis said:

 

 

Quote

 

Might have been Tera

 

If you "turtled" for to long you'd run out of your block gauge. Which was called "Re" I think, for reasons I can't remember.

 

If you ran out of block and the big-bad-boss you were tanking decided to do a super powerful attack you could be in for a very bad time. So you wanted to block for the split second of each attack as to not run down the meter. Doing so also opened up several counter attack moves on your part which could recover some of the gauge and add additional threat. Some times you couldn't block specific attacks however and had to use your iframe! (Doooodge! as Piccolo from TFS would yell)

 

 

Actually Neverwinter, but it sounds like block worked sort of similar. your block strength on classes that could block was equal to half your max HP and would recharge based on a few factors, one being your Strength stat.

 

in addition tanks all got some way of auto blocking for a short time. Barbarian tanks could enter rage mode, which when a tank would be more defensive, although it would still speed up your attacks you'd gain defensive bonuses instead of a damage bonus. Paladin tanks would gain an auto block from any direction plus a buff to any auras they might be running. and blocking on top that auto block as paladin would create a bonus defense and heal over time zone behind you.

 

Quote

How would dodging and blocking work when 16 enemies are hurling powers at you from all angles at the same time?

This is seriously a question? smaller enemies would simply not have the same strength to their attacks so you wouldn't need to block or dodge as much. Not to mention stuff like Neverwinter's auto blocking skills.

 

When they come at you in armies it might pose a challenge, or when you fight high damage big bads.

Edited June 24, 2020 by ZeeHero

[ZeeHero]

On 6/19/2020 at 1:38 PM, Frostbiter said:

If COH gets blocking as a mechanic, I vote for it to be a toggle power under Shield Defense that greys out all attack powers...

I'm glad you have nothing to do with development that would be a brain dead stupid way to implement it. it would have to be a button you hold down to instantly go into block mode- and all powersets would have a version of it.

 

Obviously attacking during block would be limited if allowed ever, but making it a toggle is moronic.

 

COH is better off without block than with a block implemented by fools, that much we agree on.

[Solarverse]

10 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

COH is better off without block than with a block implemented by fools, that much we agree on.

I second this.

The mechanics of CoH and Champions is completely different. In CoH you can actually miss. In Champions, you take damage always, it's never an actual miss so they needed block to make the hits that didn't glance hurt less. It was also a mechanic to build endurance.

CoH should never adopt anything from Champions Online...Champions Online should be a model for everything you SHOULDN'T do in an MMO as far as I am concerned.

[ZeeHero]

7 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I second this.

The mechanics of CoH and Champions is completely different. In CoH you can actually miss. In Champions, you take damage always, it's never an actual miss so they needed block to make the hits that didn't glance hurt less. It was also a mechanic to build endurance.

CoH should never adopt anything from Champions Online...Champions Online should be a model for everything you SHOULDN'T do in an MMO as far as I am concerned.

Not everything. CO's costume piece system and selection is without any argument superior to COH, but its very flawed in implementation due to too much being behind paywall or grind. Male faces, and face sliders in general could use a lot of work though.

 

on top of that CO's combat system has some of the right ideas- but its mixed in with equal parts dead wrong ideas for that kind of thing, completely negating any advantage and making it just not work well at all.

 

If I was to make a more action focused superhero game I would definitely model it after something like Pso2 and not CO.

Edited June 24, 2020 by ZeeHero

[Solarverse]

30 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Not everything. CO's costume piece system and selection is without any argument superior to COH, but its very flawed in implementation due to too much being behind paywall or grind. Male faces, and face sliders in general could use a lot of work though.

I can't argue with this. They did have an awesome customization for their characters. It wasn't until they placed a pay wall behind the costume pieces that I snarled at the customization in that game.

30 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

on top of that CO's combat system has some of the right ideas- but its mixed in with equal parts dead wrong ideas for that kind of thing, completely negating any advantage and making it just not work well at all.

What I did not like about their combat system, was that I could grab one single target power and one AoE....and then I wouldn't need another attack power again, the rest were more for fluff and show than anything else. Avalanche for example. Once I got Avalanche, all the other AoE Ice powers were useless. Same with single target power. Grab Lightening Arc and just hold down whatever key you have bound to it and never let go. Then there really wasn't much difference in DPS whether you charged a power or if you clicked it a thousand times. I absolutely despised the mechanics of that game. The only thing I honestly liked about them, was the build up power that charged endurance as it attacked...what I didn't like was that it was a toggle.

30 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

 

If I was to make a more action focused superhero game I would definitely model it after something like Pso2 and not CO.

If I were to personally do a Superhero based MMO, I would do it like how SWTOR did their combat system in the early years before all the silly nerfs came along to dummy it down. In fact I would do it exactly like that. No blocks there either...blocks came with animated blocks in response to your dodge/parry roll being higher than the to-hit roll.

[ZeeHero]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

If I were to personally do a Superhero based MMO, I would do it like how SWTOR did their combat system in the early years before all the silly nerfs came along to dummy it down.

A mistake. that would attract a small and ever shrinking audience. most people who played at all would not be playing becuase they liked the combat system just like COH now.

 

A game does not have to forgo the element of reaction based combat and fast paced action to be accessible to 95% of people of all ages. if you're missing a hand or several fingers, that sucks, but you cant let that dictate the design of games intended for a large audience.

 

Pso2's combat is the most fun I've had with a combat system in an online game ever. COH is 2nd to least, least being maibongi lol. COH has great OTHER features. anyone who asks me why I'm here is not even bothering to read my posts.

 

Quote

 I could grab one single target power and one AoE....and then I wouldn't need another attack power again

If you know how to actually make good builds in CO this is false for like, every powerset which isn't dual pistols.

 

A good melee build, say, single blade has 1 combo aoe, one bleed rupture, and then you need an attack to proc rush or something like Vorpal Blade ultimate to maximize damage. so it ends up more like 3 or 4 attacks not even counting the lunge, something COH sorely lacks in most sets- a gap closer.

Edited June 24, 2020 by ZeeHero

[Indystruck]

Character action games by their design both:
Have the element of reaction based combat and fast paced action and

Are accessible to most people of all ages due to this thing called difficulty settings. Platinum Games titles run from Easy Automatic, in which you can infact, easily play one handed, to incredibly hard. There's no market in just catering to the elite players.  You want a game that's just combat out the ass with mechanics that aren't forgiving over a latency-based system, you should've been playing Wildstar. Which had always been limping, because they tried to go all in on Hardcore, and look where that got them.

 

Also, the combat as fine, as even some people, in this topic, perhaps even, have trouble doing things like say, not dying 30 times in a TinPex and raging over it because the game is bad. That's not a failing of the game. That's a failing on your inability to adapt.

[Frostbiter]

5 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

I'm glad you have nothing to do with development that would be a brain dead stupid way to implement it. it would have to be a button you hold down to instantly go into block mode- and all powersets would have a version of it.

 

Obviously attacking during block would be limited if allowed ever, but making it a toggle is moronic.

 

COH is better off without block than with a block implemented by fools, that much we agree on.

Grow a sense of humor. 

[DSorrow]

I'm glad CoH doesn't have blocking or other reactive measures because the design of the game isn't really compatible with them. How would you even balance 3+ second animations for attacks with the requirement for twitch reflexes without either invalidating or reanimating them? In games where reactive defenses such as dodging, blocking and parrying are implemented well, basically every single player action has an animation time of less than 1 second. Additionally, you're basically never fighting crowds of enemies so it's actually possible to keep track of individual incoming attacks unlike in CoX where you can be swamped with particle effects.

 

While I'm not saying CoX has the perfect fighting system (far from it, in fact), I do think adding reactive measures like blocking would just make it worse.

Edited June 24, 2020 by DSorrow

[Parabola]

6 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

This is seriously a question? smaller enemies would simply not have the same strength to their attacks so you wouldn't need to block or dodge as much. Not to mention stuff like Neverwinter's auto blocking skills.

 

When they come at you in armies it might pose a challenge, or when you fight high damage big bads.

Yes it is seriously a question. Manual blocking mechanisms only seem to me to make sense in games where you are facing a limited number of enemies. You can see their attacks coming and you block them or not depending on your reactions. In CoH we face a tide of enemies hurling attacks at us from all angles and we'd never be able to take our finger off the block button. And we already have an auto block mechanism in defence. Defence gives us a percentage chance of avoiding (blocking, dodging, call it what you will) an attack calculated and applied by the game.

 

The combat mechanics of CoH seem entirely appropriate to both the type of game and it's context. Other combat mechanics are appropriate elsewhere, as I said before Skyrim is a good example. It is single player and the fights have a limited number of participants (unless you really screwed up). There the action based, manual targetting and manual blocking system is appropriate and it works. I can't for the life of me see how it is appropriate to the hero against waves of goons MMO setting we have in this game. It's not perfect but I'm very happy with it the way it is.

[GM Miss]

Hey guys! Lets remember to be kind with our responses. 

[ZeeHero]

3 hours ago, parabola said:

Yes it is seriously a question. Manual blocking mechanisms only seem to me to make sense in games where you are facing a limited number of enemies. You can see their attacks coming and you block them or not depending on your reactions. In CoH we face a tide of enemies hurling attacks at us from all angles and we'd never be able to take our finger off the block button.

Already false and completely ignoring my previous explaination. Way to go, you never had any interest in debate, you had your mind made up to begin with.

 

When comparing the amount of fun I have in different games with different combat systems COH and games with combat systems anything like it rank last for a reason.

 

for the last time, lower rank enemies wouldn't NEED to be constantly blocked. either read my arguments or stop making your own.

[Twisted Toon]

14 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Already false and completely ignoring my previous explaination. Way to go, you never had any interest in debate, you had your mind made up to begin with.

 

When comparing the amount of fun I have in different games with different combat systems COH and games with combat systems anything like it rank last for a reason.

 

for the last time, lower rank enemies wouldn't NEED to be constantly blocked. either read my arguments or stop making your own.

When comparing the amount of fun I have in different combat systems, CoH, and games with combat systems anything like it, rank far from last for a reason.

 

Blocking and dodging are fine mechanics for FPS games, not for MMORPGs. That is, of course, my opinion.

[Patti]

Fun contest idea!   Program a game with 2000s era engine which is both mmo compliant for latency and has all of your desired gameplay mechanics!

Good luck!

[Parabola]

46 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Already false and completely ignoring my previous explaination. Way to go, you never had any interest in debate, you had your mind made up to begin with.

 

When comparing the amount of fun I have in different games with different combat systems COH and games with combat systems anything like it rank last for a reason.

 

for the last time, lower rank enemies wouldn't NEED to be constantly blocked. either read my arguments or stop making your own.

Ok wow. Bad day? I did in fact read your arguments but I can't say I came away convinced by your reasoning. And I will make my own arguments wherever I please.

 

So lets talk about a typical CoH combat situation where a tank dives into a full team spawn. It consists of something like 2 bosses, 4 lieutenants and 8 minions. The enemies immediately unload everything they have at the tank. Now the tank isn't bothered by the attacks of the minions or the lts but the bosses have something nasty that is better off being avoided. How would that be acheived with a manual blocking mechanism? How would the player pick out the moments to block in the maelstrom of attacks?

 

I said it before and it bears repeating, if this game has a combat system you don't enjoy what are you getting out of playing? Sure there are the social elements and the costumes and such but the combat is the absolute bedrock of the gameplay. It's what we spend 99% of our time doing in game and if you're not enjoying it then maybe don't?

[Solarverse]

8 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

A mistake. that would attract a small and ever shrinking audience. most people who played at all would not be playing becuase they liked the combat system just like COH now.

I liked it, and to be honest I do like the combat system here as well. I would not change anything about the combat system in this game, and had it been up to me, the combat system in SWTOR would have never changed. (By change, I mean the animations that were changed due to time spent casting, the tree system that was changed to a path system, so forth.) So I would say honestly it's different strokes for different folks. Also to me, it's not about pulling in the largest playerbase, it's about getting a like-minded fan base and then taking care of them, which in turn they would take care of me as a Developer. Players and Developers create a symbiotic relationship. Without one another, there can be no game. I would like to *think* that a game such as that would be able to pull enough loyal fans to keep it going long term.  🙂

Quote

 

A game does not have to forgo the element of reaction based combat and fast paced action to be accessible to 95% of people of all ages. if you're missing a hand or several fingers, that sucks, but you cant let that dictate the design of games intended for a large audience.

SWTOR was not slow paced by any stretch of the imagination. Just curious, you aren't thinking of SWG are you? SWTOR was very fast paced, leaping to your target, fast attacks that chain nicely, procs going off left and right, a tree to pick numerous bonuses and proc options, hybrid builds of the same class, just no "blocking" so to speak. And if we are both thinking of the same game, all I can say is, I loved it. I did not leave that game because of the combat system, I left because they changed the combat system. I actually miss that game in it's early years.

Quote

Pso2's combat is the most fun I've had with a combat system in an online game ever. COH is 2nd to least, least being maibongi lol. COH has great OTHER features. anyone who asks me why I'm here is not even bothering to read my posts.

I have never tried Pso2. I'll have to take a look at it. Sounds fun.

Quote

If you know how to actually make good builds in CO this is false for like, every powerset which isn't dual pistols.A good melee build, say, single blade has 1 combo aoe, one bleed rupture, and then you need an attack to proc rush or something like Vorpal Blade ultimate to maximize damage. so it ends up more like 3 or 4 attacks not even counting the lunge, something COH sorely lacks in most sets- a gap closer.

They may have changed some things since I stopped playing CO? All I know is that when I played DPS in those days, I almost always topped the parcers. This was during leveling and after near completed builds. I would send in a pet or two (I always played free forms) that does AoE Damage, then press and hold 3 for Avalanche for AoE Damage and then do the same for Boss fights except instead of Avalanche, I would use Lightening Arc in place of Avalanche. If the Tank died, I was almost always the next target on the Boss's hate list.

So that style of playing may not work today, but way back when I played the game, that was always what got me top of the DPS list. I might have to hit the game back up someday to check it out...but honestly, my Hero love is in this game, so I would never go back to playing CO on the regular.  I'll check it out though.  🙂

Edited June 24, 2020 by Solarverse

[EmmySky]

Going all the way back to the original question...

 

It is entirely subjective.  That may not be an answer that satisfies but it is the answer.  Petty arguments over combat systems or costume customization just emphasize that it really depends on a players tastes, skills and playstyle.

 

I prefer CoH because its casual.  I didnt play much of CO because I didn't care for the limits in keybinding (I may have just not stayed long enough to figure it out) and other very aesthetic things.  

 

Nobody is wrong or right its just too subjective to nail down.

[cranebump]

I feel like the thread title is inaccurate. Feels like the OP is saying, "I don't get why you guys like CoH so much." Evidently, many of us are just plain insane since CO is "objectively superior" in so many ways. 🙁

[Luminara]

53 minutes ago, parabola said:

combat is the absolute bedrock of the gameplay. It's what we spend 99% of our time doing in game and if you're not enjoying it then maybe don't?

 

He doesn't.  Last sentence in the second-to-last paragraph in the post linked below.  He's just here for the same reason someone would go to a French restaurant every day and complain about the lack of tacos on the menu, then leave without ordering anything.

 

 

As for blocking, dodging, pausing to chat with the Pointer Sisters, whatever, it's a console mechanic, designed and used as a means of providing developer-controlled response to enemy attacks which have also been specifically designed with blocking as the intended response.  It's unsuitable in computer gaming in general, as even the most basic keyboards offer an order of magnitude more user input than a handheld controller.  It's even less suitable, as others have pointed out, in online gaming, due to latency.   And as has also been mentioned, that suitability declines yet further when the combat system allows 16 foes to attack, not simultaneously, but according to class scripts and power availability, resulting in rapid-fire attacks with no timing or order imposed.  And here, in our game, a block mechanic would necessitate reworking, if not outright removing, Defense buffs, Resistance buffs, ToHit debuffs, Damage debuffs, all status effects, range and all forms of healing, as well as significantly reducing spawn sizes and redesigning critter AI in order for the mechanic to have any value or utility, which drops the suitability to something on par with "refrigerator at the North Pole".

 

Blocking is a limited mechanic, designed for limited systems, used as a workaround to dealing with limited input options, and of all of the potential complaints about Co*'s combat system, not having to sit through long enemy animations (long by necessity, to act as tells so the player knows when to block) and slowly fighting one opponent at a time would definitely not be on the list.  Any list.  Fewer limitations and faster, less repetitive combat is always better, from player perspective and for the longevity of a game.

 

But for people who can't function with a superior combat system, there are always console games with carefully controlled combat situations which can be learned by rote (or watching a video) and which offer the satisfaction of referring to oneself as a master twitch gamer because one managed to press a button after 4-5 seconds of tells.

[Heraclea]

On 6/19/2020 at 1:46 PM, Rathulfr said:

Same here.  I *hate* the combat mechanics of CO, including the block.

Blocking tactics assume that you are familiar with mobs' behavior the first time you run into them. They also mean one more demand on your attention in the middle of all the chaos.  One more thing that says 'stop whatever you're doing and go do something else!'  This game needs that nonsense like it needs a second, evil head. 

 

Much better to have toggle deflection that just works.