Proc Monsters - Tanker Edition

[Lazarus]

On 10/19/2019 at 12:24 AM, Sir Myshkin said:

TL;DR I can't.

 

There's not a lot that procs are going to necessarily change from a play stand point. You might find some new tricks and fun times with old powers that felt a bit stagnate, but it's not like a lot of these are going to be dramatically altered. Not like Dimension Shift, or how Mass Confusion can get loaded up with a few damage procs and suddenly becomes a small-burst AoE, or Ice Arrow is now a main-chain attack doing more DPS than half a Defender's normal attacks. There's just not as many surprise findings in Melee AT's compared to just "now it works better than before!"

 

Off the top of my head, these are probably the most relevant responses I can give:

• Radiation Armor/Spines was the most pleasant validation of just being a proc-aoe-monster. It worked exactly as I'd expected, and it was beautiful
• Titan Weapons was a numb experience of "yup, that did what I expected... literally to the second predicted its performance." /em rolleyes
• Energy Melee was the only set that I said "wow" that actually really improved the set!
• Super Strength is broken and is the second most powerful set in the game behind TW. All I did was prove it needs nerfed (as in: fixed). I don't particularly feel great about that.

READING THIS ABOUT SUPER STRENGTH HAS ME A BIT CONFUSED. IF IT IS ONLY THE "SECOND BEST" SET, THEN SEEMS TO ME THAT TW MIGHT BE THE OUTLIGHER SET HERE.

A FEW POINTS

1) EVEN DEVS DIDNT BALACE THEN GAME AROUND IO'S

2) NOT EVERYONE WANT TO BUILD A "PROC. MOSNTER".,,I LOVE CHASEING SET BONUSES

3) IF PROCS DID THAT MUCH FOR SS,..WHAT WILL THEY DO FOR TW, THE SET WITH FASTEST ATTACK ACTIONS IN THE GAME,  SUB1 MIN? PYLON

4) IT HAS BEEN WELL STATED THAT SS IS JUST MIDDLE OF THE PACK BASED ON ITS NORMAL PREFORMANCE. IF ANYTHING ITS NOT SS ITS THE PROCS THEMSELVES THAT "MAYBE" NEED TO BE LOOKED INTO.

 

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, Lazarus said:

READING THIS ABOUT SUPER STRENGTH HAS ME A BIT CONFUSED. IF IT IS ONLY THE "SECOND BEST" SET, THEN SEEMS TO ME THAT TW MIGHT BE THE OUTLIGHER SET HERE.

A FEW POINTS

1) EVEN DEVS DIDNT BALACE THEN GAME AROUND IO'S

2) NOT EVERYONE WANT TO BUILD A "PROC. MOSNTER".,,I LOVE CHASEING SET BONUSES

3) IF PROCS DID THAT MUCH FOR SS,..WHAT WILL THEY DO FOR TW, THE SET WITH FASTEST ATTACK ACTIONS IN THE GAME,  SUB1 MIN? PYLON

4) IT HAS BEEN WELL STATED THAT SS IS JUST MIDDLE OF THE PACK BASED ON ITS NORMAL PREFORMANCE. IF ANYTHING ITS NOT SS ITS THE PROCS THEMSELVES THAT "MAYBE" NEED TO BE LOOKED INTO.

 

1. Devs did consider IOs when balancing sets.

2.  You don't have to build a proc monster. Enjoy your set bonuses. Play your way.

3. TW, I forget what was done on a tank, I think sub 2 min barely. Maybe 20-30 seconds better than SS.

4a. Procs are pretty equal for all tank sets, people are underestimating the impact of rage. Procs do help fill the rage hole, though.

4b. Procs are working as intended, but given the fact those changes never made it to live, the original developers grossly underestimated the impacts of those changes. Perhaps procs should be looked at, but the way I see it, it gives low damage characters an opportunity to do respectable dps. So to change it now will probably just cause an outcry. 

 

Lastly, lose the all caps. Unless you have a vision problem and struggle to read forum print, it's considered bad etiquette. 

 

[Rathulfr]

13 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Lastly, lose the all caps. Unless you have a vision problem and struggle to read forum print, it's considered bad etiquette.

 

I thought I was reading an old-timey telegram.  In my mind, I kept hearing "STOP" at the end of every sentence.  😄

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Rathulfr

[Sir Myshkin]

7 hours ago, Lazarus said:

READING ...

Okay, hold on, I just... I can't...

 

7 hours ago, Lazarus said:

Reading this about Super Strength has me a bit confused. If it is only the "second best" set, then it seems to me that TW might be the outlier set here.

A few points

1) Even the Devs didn't balance the game around IO's

2) Not everyone wants to build a "Proc Monster," I love chasing set bonuses

3) If procs did that much for SS, what will they do for TW, the set with the fastest attack actions in the game?

4) It has been well stated that SS is just middle of the pack based on its normal performance. If anything it's not SS, it's the procs themselves that "maybe" need to be looked into. 

Okay, wow, much better.

 

Super Strength is an outlier set with the Rage in its current state. Procs are not the cause for action in this regard, it is Rage itself causing this distortion. And when I called it second best, that was, yes, behind TW, but it was also still creating a significant gap between it and everything else. Your next best performing (with +Dam and extra -Res) sets hit the 2:45-3:00 mark on a targeted Pylon DPS test. Based on that factor alone SS is in its own outlier category with TW.

 

1. Initially, no they didn't, but you can plainly see the impact of IO's in their design choices later on with anticipation on how those sets would perform on an IO level compared to an SO level.
2. No one said you had to?
3. I already tested TW with Procs, that information was posted already. I talked about it at length. For an inefficient TW build, procs managed to keep TW swinging at the 3:00 range (+/- 15/s). For a corrected build I hit 1:59. It is important to point out that this is definitely contingent on Assault Hybrid Core assisting this process, which is the same case for those other "high" (transversely low) variances we've seen with other AT's (Brutes/Scrappers). This was also on a build that did not leverage Bio Armor, like I did with Super Strength. Take that into a moment of consideration too. TW without Bio Armor is equivalent to SS with Bio Armor.
   1. Sub note: Procs didn't cause these variances, the sets would've still had consistent placements here or there, I used a standard maximization practice on everything I ran so there's not an abnormality for abnormalities sake. Melee sets get the same love across the board so there's far less extreme cases like with, say, the Blast sets or Control sets where some sets benefit far more than others. In most cases, for those, the sets that do benefit are ones that naturally have lower output so procs actually help bring them in line.
4. I don't know how "well stated" I'd, er, state that to be. A lot of people were adamant that SS was in rough shape for years until this point, when hard data point numbers (and video proof) demonstrated just how wrong that myth was. Without Rage, and just looking at its practical values, most of SS falls in line with many of the sets sans Jab which has a considerably under powered damage value. When I tried running a single-Rage variation of SS, it was somewhere around that "not quite in the top, but not really in the middle, feels like it could do better, but it has a perma build up so what the heck" impact. The reason it sits there is because it doesn't have the ability to leverage other tools like some of the other sets do (mainly -Res procs).
   1. Without Procs, and measured equally across the board, SS is still a top performer. Yes damage procs do allow SS to waive that Rage crash a bit by keeping some inkling of performance, but we're not talking 400 DPS. We're talking about a marginal window.

And you have to remember that all the values are tested on an even proc-based playing field. All the sets are dipping into the same pool to try and get the same benefits. Super Strength is the only one that says "Hey, how about +160% damage, all the time." And then it had a lousy patch to "balance" that fact with negative damage, and that's where the IO system, and procs, came in and went "nah, it's cool, here, we can fix that." And what that revealed was truly the fact that SS actually is broken, in a not-so-good very-overpowered way. And it's been that way for a long, looooong time. But because it has that crash, we all just kind of accepted it from a logistics standpoint. The IO system, and procs, I personally don't believe to be bad, imbalanced, or broken in any way. The devs put out effort before sunset to fix their performance to the level we have now, with their own notes stating that the system pre-i24 was not working to their expectation, and that the fixes in i24 were designed to correct that.

 

There's nothing anyone can pinpoint at this stage that would change the hard-line fact that Super Strength, in its current condition, is over powered, regardless of the Invention System. Yes, Titan Weapons is too, and unfortunately there is not a considerably easy fix for that one that doesn't involve a serious reconsideration of the sets overall design. I actually attempted to experiment with alternative evaluations of the set by restricting to non-momentum choices and the set STILL performed at the top of the pile, albeit with a much narrow gap. Super Strength, however, has a much simpler resolution: a nonstackable, perma-capable Rage with an adjusted damage value and no crash. Allow it to stay upper-levels, but with a margin in the 10-20/s variance and not the 1:00 variance. A more honest evaluation would likely revolve around changing the fundamental mechanics behind Super Strength, pulling the concept of Rage entirely, and installing an SS "unique" condition to help stabilize its performance without the inclusion of an "always on" 160% +Dam effect.

 

21 hours ago, siran said:

I'd like very much to take advantage of the goodness in this thread, but I'm not at all sure how to get the procs into the build without damaging the survivability. Pretty obviously the two heals should have six slots and have lots of procs in them. I don't really know what to do with the toggle power: I use it at the moment just to taunt. Perhaps the other things it does are good, but I can't tell. Would procs in it be valuable?

If you really want to stick to budget performances you have to look at the entire build and concentrate on the important aspects of your goals. If you don't think, or don't want to try and really core out a significant amount of global recharge to make TW work at that upper echelon, than maybe some of those attacks might be something you reconsider. What I can tell you is it's pretty easy to get a solid, but not top-tier chain out of Rend Armor into Crushing Blow, Follow Through, and Whirling Smash. What you have in your build works for you as a player, so remember that first and fore-most if you're happy with how it runs. If you do want to start nit-picking and seeing where you need to go from here, then read on...

 

Radiation Therapy and Ground Zero are killer vehicles for procs to live in, and if you're going to use them, a warranted investment. You are talking about a pretty slot-intensive build though which was one drawback to Radiation Armor in general; has a great toolkit, but it requires more slots to fulfill than normal. You can cut a slot from Beta Decay, and a slot from Stamina and use those elsewhere. If you're not going to properly slot out Ground Zero for (anything) that there's not really much reason to carry it. You really need more investment in Particle Shielding, that's the power which is really going to support you the most between what could be 200+Regen, and a big Absorb boost on a relatively short cooldown. You're also way overslotting Gamma Boost for End Mod. There are a few shortcomings in accuracy in a few places you might want to be running Tactics (also dump Focused Accuracy, that power costs a lot of extra end to do just about the same as Tactics from a functionality standpoint). TW is an AoE heavy set, and Rad Armor is an AoE Armor. You frankly end up with too much AoE to support. You gotta figure out where you need/want to cut from, and focus the build's planning fore carefully. Either more closely evaluate Rad Therapy and Ground Zero against Titan Sweep, Whirling Sword, and Arc of Destruction, or start looking at cutting from your build .

Edited October 30, 2019 by Sir Myshkin
Added Siran reply

[siran]

Thanks for the response. It's nice for you to cast an eye over the build and make advice like that. It was just 'how it ended up' rather than with much thought, so now I'll take your advice and see what I can do. I did consider tactics instead of focused accuracy, but I hate being 'to hit debuffed', and with the overslotting for endurance the cost didn't matter. I suspect it will if I reduce the slotting for end so I'll think hard about it.

 

Your comment on too much AOE was interesting. The easy option is to drop titan sweep, but I often exemplar... mind you perhaps I can have second build for exemplaring.... something to consider. I'll also take a good hard look at accuracy and so on. 

 

 

[the mauler]

On 9/25/2019 at 1:52 AM, Sir Myshkin said:

Tank Testing Update #3

What's on the docket tonight folks:

• Energy Melee
• Super Strength
• Rage,
  • Rage against the dying of the light.
  • Do not go gentle into that good night,
    • Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
• Ice, Willpower, Bio Armor
• Stone Melee
  • Leviathan and Soul Mastery Epics
• Gloom

Had a bit of down time recently from illness that took a bit to really recover from, and still finding myself dealing with what's apparently going to be an ongoing issue for the foreseeable get-off-my-lawn future. Given that, I apologize for any unintended delay in really pushing these experiments forward. It's been nearly ten days since my last confessional er, real test update. So lets have a little break down on the things that have happened recently for those not paying full attention to the Test/Beta/Pineapple.

 

Tanks got an overhaul that's looking to be a pretty dramatic thing. Talking raised damage cap, increased modifiers for their Secondary (attack) sets, buffs to support abilities like Maneuvers, Tactics, Assault, and debuff triggers like Melt Armor getting increased collectively. Really taking that next step in bending the "support" side of being a Team Tank. There's also a big shift in Rage, how it functions, and what it means to "crash" with that power. The current attempt from the Dev involved is to create more balance and drive Tanks to be more variant opposition to Brutes as there's very-clearly a heavy divide between how many Brutes exist on Homecoming, versus Tanks (significantly fewer Tanks). Not that Tanks are bad, but there's a lot to be said about how Brutes can manage aggro, and dish out some serious hits while having the same survival range as a Tank, and Tanks can't really compete with that right now.

 

With that being said, all of the preliminary testing being done in this thread is subjective to the fact that (from a Damage perspective), any of it could change at a moments notice.

 

Energy Melee

Man this set has some bad blood in the canals of history, but I dropped a video over on the Feedback thread for this last night, and I'll link it here as well, showing some pretty obnoxious things that I was able to do with our current Energy Melee, and it has a lot to do with how vicious Procs are changing Tanks, on top of the damage increase they're receiving. From a survival standpoint, NrgM does pretty well from a damage aspect, but it really lacks significant soft-control options in its current state. Nearly every ability tosses around a low-mag Disorient that's, well, pretty darn useless. Even Whirling Hands doesn't get any real action, so the set is forced to consider alternative choices to get that soft-control ramp-up. Overwhelming Force KD proc is one option, for sure, and also looking into Epics for solutions, but regrettably there's not a lot we can safely rely on that's not going to face a gimp usage, or significant power and slot selection to get to.

 

Currently the only real "hole" I've run into, and not just with NrgM, but with Tankers in general are that, in this scenario where I'm bending procs and not sets/bonuses, getting chains down is difficult, and in some cases there really needs to be an extending tool, range attack, or just something beefier than what's available. Thankfully Gloom is a pretty nice filler, one-off pick from Soul Mastery that easily adds "Umphf" to a build, fills a gap, and adds value. I kind of caught myself wanting to add it repeatedly to a lot of builds because of how simple, proc-capable, and high-damage it was.

 

What it boiled down to is that Energy Melee is currently the strongest tested set on my ticket right now at 2:56 to bury a Pylon. I ran two additional tests for balance at 3:26 and 3:20, with one Hybrid-On test that came in at 2:25. For comparison, Titan Weapons tend to fluctuate in that sub 2:00 category, and Energy Melee just knocked on its door. The biggest component here is Energy Transfer. It has a relatively decent animation time (just under 3/s Arcana), and with Procs, does nearly 1,000 points of damage, potentially more for a Tank buffed further than I stood solo. Bone Smasher also hits pretty hard too (not quite 1,000 of course, but good). What some of these sets lack is a strong ability to pack in -Res effects to leverage Procs more effectively. When I tested NrgM, it was with Bio Armor and went in with 41% global +Dam, a damage aura in Genetic Contamination (also sporting Fury -Res), and whatever -Res I could get from Evolving Armor.

 

For perspective, when I ran SD/RM, Irradiated Ground carried both Heel and Fury -Res, plus a repeated Heel in Radioactive Smash to keep it up more consistently. That build carried 56% global +Dam, and despite all that still clocked in a 3:40 and 3:20 (Hybrid)

 

Bio Armor/Energy Melee/Soul Pylon Run:

 

Ice, Bio, Willpower

Shield Defense with Assault (and some meandering bonuses) got me to 56%, Bio Armor dragged in 41%, Willpower (tested tonight) scrapped by with 18.5%, there's a lot of potential variance, especially with the test changes that make having those inherent +Damage global bonuses much stronger right now. Tanks that can leverage the Primary that builds higher values are going to see a lot more force return in combat now, so sets that lack those features like WP or Ice, might seem sluggish by contrast. I only managed to build up 18.5% global on WP because of Hybrid's passive +10, and the modified 18.5% from Assault on Tankers on Pineapple. Tanks that can't get access to a stable form of -Res are also going to "struggle" (for lack of a better term, it's not like we're saying they're dramatically worse, but a realm of DPS potential varying from >250 versus <350). Right now Bio Armor is kind of the only "full package" solution, and as such I think there's going to be a relatively medium-ish window of variance on how any given combo performs based on what additional metrics its bringing to the table (like +Dam).

 

Stone Melee, Ice Armor, and Epics

So @Rylas offered, as mentioned previously, to head the legwork on a build or two, so I tossed Ice Armor options over, both testing Stone Melee in two slightly different configurations with two different epics attached: Leviathan and Soul Mastery. Looking over the logs, speeding through a video or two, and talking back and forth about experiences with the set come with some weight on value. Leviathan, with Arctic Breath offering up significant -Res potential (inherent and proc stacks), the investment to get into that ability is one of two attacks, and School of Sharks looked more promising. From a data standpoint, the power executes as it should, but its damage is DoT behind the burst of Proc damage which makes it a very slow-burn attack at that level. From a reasonable-use consideration, Rylas' viewpoint was less favorable towards the ability, which makes that power leap-frog to get Arctic Breath more questionable.

 

A big thing that drove me past a lot of the Epics/Patrons available to Tanks is that most of them sport a couple of mediocre control abilities either in soft sleep, maybe a one-off hold here or there, and an Immobilize for most cases. Many of them are serving a purpose of adding control-utility to Tanks to help with crowd control/management, which leaves most of them somewhat lacking for helping shore-up damage needs for sets that lack either a third or fourth decent ST attack, or some form of additional AoE in the form of a cone/pbaoe/taoe. When they lack in damage, we fix with procs, but the stumbling point is that we have a lot that don't proc-up well (or at all).

 

Right now Leviathan, Soul, Pyre, and Energy Mastery are the best go-to's, but Leviathan is contingent on the probability of sacrificing a power pick to get to Arctic Breath that may not be one you really want to go for. Soul has a great ST in Gloom, and Dark Obliteration is a 1/s, heavy hitting target based AoE that can serve as a pinch-add-in AoE to any build with the slots to support it, and its Proc load. Pyre has Char, and all of the holds in the Epics tend to be very high-burst, fast animating attacks, but the Tanker variants have considerable recharge lengths to keep them from being over-abused. Melt Armor is also in Pyre, and with the buffs to support aspects (Debuffs in this case) of -Res abilities, Melt just became probably the best direct choice over Arctic Breath because it has a higher value (on Test) with a duration considerably longer. My inclusion of Energy into the list is purely for Conserve being a solid all-around end fix for some builds, and Laser Beam Eyes can actually function as a decent ST attack that also grants access to Achilles -Res.

 

Rylas also took the effort to bash in a couple of Pylons and reported back the times they recorded. For Ice/Stone/Leviathan, 5:30-ish. Makes me feel like Arctic Breath isn't doing enough lifting. Survival wise, all thumbs up and really just face an Accuracy concern that I'll need to better address in a few builds, and a concern which the buffed version of Tanker Tactics on test is going to have much more value towards fixing accuracy offsets. I might consider visiting Stone Melee with a different Primary to see if it gives back better/different performance with a bit of +Dam. We know the set has a lot of good Proc consistency/probability because several of its key powers are featured in the Controller epics that were already tested.

 

Gloom

I want to say that, for three proc slots and three slots of power-improving enhancements, Gloom might be the 'Hero' of the epics in providing a power that both hits hard, hits fast, and recharges quickly. It fills a lot of attack chains up that are missing that "one last key ability" in their chains while avoiding pesky T1's again. I had to stop myself from wanting to blindly add this ability to everything because of how well it "fixed" builds needing a touch more.

 

SS and Rage

Rage got its crash altered so that it's not quite as severe, only applies when double-stacked, and has a relatively significant damage boost under just one application with a bonus of +ToHit blended in. I will say that Super Strength definitely didn't quite feel "Super" by comparison with just one stack involved, and when I tossed the second one on (in a build that had the recharge to actually support a double-stacked Rage) to see what'd happen, I found an interesting surprise.

 

Procs currently don't care about Rage's -99999^ damage reductions that lasts for 10/s. So while Rage may crash, you can keep barreling through your target without a whole ton of concern. The procs themselves are static and separate from AT modifiers. I must admit, I wasn't expecting this case, but the fact that I can still bash KO Blow and get a few hundred in proc damage still with that kind of debuff, that works out really well.

 

If you watch the video for it, and really look at the status window I keep pulled up, there's a significant note in the recharge levels I ran at. I put FF+Rech in both Haymaker and KO Blow and stacked so many proc activations so quickly and often enough that I spent a lot of time at +100% (in this case 251% total) which let me keep KO Blow on a ~5/s cooldown versus 8/s.

 

In the end, even with double-stacked Rage, I walked away from a Pylon at 4:20 (I know, I know) which is kinda comparable to what Stone delivered so far (a little better, but still sitting in that 4:00-5:00 threshold that I expected most Tank builds to end up in). Something I find interesting here, one Rage put me at 98%, double stacked into the late 190's for +Damage, and even with that insane buff, and leveraging Laser Beam Eyes to get -Res stacks going, I still struggled to break the 4:00 barrier (even with Hybrid toggled on for a run). Rage aside, Super Strength is (IMO) definitely a bit under classed in its performance. Not by a lot, but just enough that it kind of lacks some of that punch it really needs to feel "Super" versus just being a boxing set.

 

Willpower/Super Strength Survival and Pylon Test:

 

Edit: Adding the WP/SS build for reference, I'd forgotten to include it as I usually do. As far as a chain for this build, I ran KO Blow > Hay > LBE > Punch > Hay. Once it started rolling the chain somehow starts stacking enough trigger of FF+Rech that it can sit for a ridiculously long time at 251% Rech so long as it keeps cycling the chain (or, at the minimum, just using Haymaker/KOB/Footstomp).

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Hero Plan by Hero Hero Designer 2.23
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Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Willpower
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(9), UnbGrd-Max HP%(9), GldArm-3defTpProc(50)
Level 1: Jab -- SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(34), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36)
Level 2: Mind Over Body -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(3), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(7), HO:Ribo(7)
Level 4: Fast Healing -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A), Prv-Absorb%(5)
Level 6: Indomitable Will -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(11), Ksm-ToHit+(23)
Level 8: Rise to the Challenge -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(11), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(13), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(29), Pnc-Heal(31)
Level 10: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Quick Recovery -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(13)
Level 14: Tough -- Ags-ResDam(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(15), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(15), HO:Ribo(21)
Level 16: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def(17), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(17), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(19), RedFrt-EndRdx(19), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 18: Heightened Senses -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(23), RedFrt-Def(25), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(27), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(27), RedFrt-EndRdx(29)
Level 20: Punch -- Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg(A), Mk'Bit-Dmg/EndRdx(37), ExpStr-Dam%(37), TchofDth-Dam%(37), Mk'Bit-Dam%(40), GldStr-%Dam(42)
Level 22: Haymaker -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx(42), TchofDth-Dam%(42), Mk'Bit-Dam%(43), GldStr-%Dam(43), FrcFdb-Rechg%(43)
Level 24: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%(A), PrfZng-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(25), PrfZng-Taunt(36), PrfZng-Taunt/Rng(36)
Level 26: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 28: Rage -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 30: Knockout Blow -- Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(31), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(33), FrcFdb-Rechg%(33), Hct-Dam%(33), UnbCns-Dam%(34)
Level 32: Super Speed -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(39), Obl-%Dam(39), Arm-Dam%(39), ScrDrv-Dam%(40), FrcFdb-Rechg%(40)
Level 41: Laser Beam Eyes -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Apc-Dam%(46), GldJvl-Dam%(46), TchofLadG-%Dam(46), AchHee-ResDeb%(48)
Level 44: Maneuvers -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(45), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(48), Rct-Def/Rchg(48), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50), Rct-ResDam%(50)
Level 47: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(3)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(5)
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
------------

 

 

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		|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

 

And then Ice Armor/Stone Melee/Leviathan:

  Reveal hidden contents

Hero Plan by Hero Hero Designer 2.23
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Stone Melee
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Leviathan Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Frozen Armor -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(3), RedFrt-Def(3), RedFrt-EndRdx(5), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(5), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 1: Stone Fist -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(7), PrfZng-Dam%(9), TchofDth-Dam%(9), Mk'Bit-Dam%(11), GldStr-%Dam(11)
Level 2: Hoarfrost -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-Heal(15), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(17), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(37), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(40)
Level 4: Chilling Embrace -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 6: Wet Ice -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 10: Heavy Mallet -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), TchofDth-Dam%(33), Mk'Bit-Dam%(34), GldStr-%Dam(34), FrcFdb-Rechg%(34)
Level 12: Icicles -- SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(A), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(13), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 14: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(17), HO:Ribo(25)
Level 16: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(25), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(29), Rct-ResDam%(31), Ksm-ToHit+(31)
Level 18: Glacial Armor -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def(19), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(19), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(21), RedFrt-EndRdx(21), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 20: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 22: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), GssSynFr--Build%(33)
Level 24: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%(A)
Level 26: Energy Absorption -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(27), PrfShf-EndMod/Rchg(27), EffAdp-EndMod/Rchg(29)
Level 28: Hurl Boulder -- Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(42), Apc-Dam%(42), GldJvl-Dam%(50), FrcFdb-Rechg%(50)
Level 30: Permafrost -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A)
Level 32: Hibernate -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Tremor -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(36), Obl-%Dam(36), Arm-Dam%(36), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(37), FrcFdb-Rechg%(37)
Level 38: Seismic Smash -- Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(39), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(39), GldStr-%Dam(39), Hct-Dam%(40), UnbCns-Dam%(40)
Level 41: School of Sharks -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), JvlVll-Dam%(43), Ann-ResDeb%(43), PstBls-Dam%(43), TraoftheH-Dam%(46), PstBls-Acc/Dmg(46)
Level 44: Arctic Breath -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(45), JvlVll-Dam%(45), PstBls-Dam%(45), TchofLadG-%Dam(46), AchHee-ResDeb%(50)
Level 47: Summon Guardian -- ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(48), ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(48), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48)
Level 49: Super Speed -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(42)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(23)
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon
Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany
------------

 

 

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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And Ice Armor/Stone Melee/Soul:

  Reveal hidden contents

Hero Plan by Hero Hero Designer 2.23
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Stone Melee
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Frozen Armor -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(3), RedFrt-Def(3), RedFrt-EndRdx(5), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(5), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 1: Stone Fist -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(7), PrfZng-Dam%(9), TchofDth-Dam%(9), Mk'Bit-Dam%(11), GldStr-%Dam(11)
Level 2: Hoarfrost -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-Heal(15), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(17), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(37), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(40)
Level 4: Chilling Embrace -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 6: Wet Ice -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 10: Heavy Mallet -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), TchofDth-Dam%(33), Mk'Bit-Dam%(34), GldStr-%Dam(34), FrcFdb-Rechg%(34)
Level 12: Icicles -- SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(A), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(13), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(25), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 14: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(17), HO:Ribo(50)
Level 16: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(25), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(29), Rct-ResDam%(31), Ksm-ToHit+(31)
Level 18: Glacial Armor -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def(19), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(19), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(21), RedFrt-EndRdx(21), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 20: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 22: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), GssSynFr--Build%(33)
Level 24: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%(A)
Level 26: Energy Absorption -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(27), PrfShf-EndMod/Rchg(27), EffAdp-EndMod/Rchg(29)
Level 28: Fault -- Acc-I(A), Stp-Acc/EndRdx(42), FrcFdb-Rechg%(42)
Level 30: Permafrost -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A)
Level 32: Hibernate -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Tremor -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(36), Obl-%Dam(36), Arm-Dam%(36), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(37), FrcFdb-Rechg%(37)
Level 38: Seismic Smash -- Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(39), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(39), GldStr-%Dam(39), Hct-Dam%(40), UnbCns-Dam%(40)
Level 41: Gloom -- Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Apc-Dmg(43), Acc-I(43), CldSns-%Dam(43), GldJvl-Dam%(46), Apc-Dam%(46)
Level 44: Dark Obliteration -- Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(A), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), CldSns-%Dam(45), PstBls-Dam%(45), JvlVll-Dam%(46), Ann-ResDeb%(50)
Level 47: Summon Widow -- ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(48), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(48)
Level 49: Super Speed -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(42)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(23)
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon
Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany
------------

 

 

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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did anyone notice the quote from poet Dylan Thomas upon the death of his father in one of his best known works.?

[Lazarus]

Sir Myshkin first thx for the great testing,. Awesome job and great info, but just a couple questions.

 

the few sets you have tested was with a different defensive set for each offensive set

WP/SS,.ICE/STONE,..SS/TW,.SD/RAD

doesn't that kind of scue the results by adding a different factor to each test,..after all "not all armor sets are made equally"

 

Secondly u said Super Strength preformed realy will because of the +160% dam. double rage.

got me thinking Kinetic Melee should also be a top performer with a perma +125% dam. with no crash.,,

also thinking a SD/DM could also get close to around +100% dam. perma.

I know It kind of sounds obvious but the set with the highest +dam at a permeant state look like they may take the biggest advantage of procs free dam.

[Bopper]

50 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

I know It kind of sounds obvious but the set with the highest +dam at a permeant state look like they may take the biggest advantage of procs free dam.

The +dam is just one aspect that factors into optimizing the dps of an attack chain. You will want to look at powers that offer up high DPA; and in the case of procs, you want to find attacks with low cast times, long (but not too long) base recharge, and you want good options for procs.

 

One power that stands out to me in the SS set is knockout blow. It hits like a truck with a not terrible case time (3.56 damage over 2.23s cast time). It has a base recharge of 25 seconds which makes it the 2nd most efficient single target attack power for using the FF proc. With no recharge in knockout blow, you will have a 90% probability to proc FF for a 100% recharge bonus for 5 seconds. Combine that with another 150% global recharge and you will have KoB up every 8 seconds (which is conservative if we're being honest). 

 

The 2nd thing about KoB that stands out is that it can take the purple Hold damage proc, which is not common for melee attacks. That adds an extra 36 damage over a basic proc.

 

So again, when looking for what makes a good proc attack chain, you have to factor all of these things in: DPA, +dam, cast time, base recharge. Not to mention, finding enough good powers to make the attack chain seamless. That's where picking epics like Gloom come in, as it hits all the above checkmarks.

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

the few sets you have tested was with a different defensive set for each offensive set

WP/SS,.ICE/STONE,..SS/TW,.SD/RAD

doesn't that kind of scue the results by adding a different factor to each test,..after all "not all armor sets are made equally"

Keep in mind, the purpose of this thread isn't so much about finding the best proc build, but to test many combinations for the analysis of the utility of procs. From the test results you can determine for yourself what works best for you. 

[Sir Myshkin]

21 hours ago, Lazarus said:

"not all armor sets are made equally"

First, a shout out to @Bopper for a great breakdown in their response, hopefully that gives you kind of the "why" and "how" of it when choosing and slotting.

 

Something I want to add that was a personal rationalization on the "Equality" concept, and why I varied the set choices was because I know I can make one set really speak well to a 100% focused proc build, but I want to demonstrate how this can apply to a multitude of build opportunities. Some of my choices were definitely intentional pairings, like TW with Super Reflexes--I wanted to really hone in on the raw power of TW without something like Bio Armor's toolkit mucking about in my test, or the initial testing of SS with Willpower for similar reasons (and also just demoing the ability of a generic muscle build). Certain sets, like RA/Spines was to get an AoE Blender going and see what kind of AoE specialist I could make. These are the kinds of combinations we'd expect to see, what people will and do play, so I wanted to show how I could make the survivable while being a proc-centric build.

 

22 hours ago, Lazarus said:

got me thinking Kinetic Melee should also be a top performer with a perma +125% dam. with no crash.,,

I have yet to be able to test this on Beta for Tanks because the set is bugged and corrupts the character and forces the game to hard-crash.

 

22 hours ago, Lazarus said:

I know It kind of sounds obvious but the set with the highest +dam at a permeant state look like they may take the biggest advantage of procs free dam.

This would ... not be correct in the sense it seems like you might be thinking. Proc damage does not, in any way, shape, or form, benefit for AT modifiers or +Damage effects on a player. They are a static, pre-determined value that triggers equally for all AT's at a set rate. If it says it's damage is 71.95, then that is what it'll be for everyone, (+/- resistances on the impacted enemy). The sets that actually benefit the most from procs are actually low-performing sets like Defenders and Controllers as it gives them a better ability to not just solo, but also just execute reasonable amounts of damage on their own accord and in more dynamic ways. Yes melee AT's get to leverage them too, but we're talking about a smaller window of improvement and utility by contrast.

 

Keep in mind, however, that we're not just looking at the +Dam procs, but also the unique attributable ones like the Gaussian's +BU effect, or FF+Rech having interesting interactions in the performance of these builds. Quite a few folks are seeing the +Dam procs as the reason I can get SS over the hurdle of its crash, but a good portion of favor is actually directly responsible to the simple addition of the Gaussian's proc in Rage. By waiting to trigger my second application of Rage  until after each crash, I can pop it with the bonus +80% and get a ton of extra mileage out of Gloom and KO-B immediately.

[Graceless]

I'm a newbie slotting out my first 50, who happens to be a Bio/TW tanker, and given that I solo pretty often I love the idea of using procs to enhance my DPS, but Mids is super intimidating as somebody who never played the original CoH. I'm using the build you outlined for SR/TW as a rough guideline, but given that I don't have the inherent +Recharge that SR offers, what attack chain should I be shooting for and how much global recharge do I need to stack to get there?

[Sir Myshkin]

5 hours ago, Graceless said:

I'm a newbie slotting out my first 50, who happens to be a Bio/TW tanker, and given that I solo pretty often I love the idea of using procs to enhance my DPS, but Mids is super intimidating as somebody who never played the original CoH. I'm using the build you outlined for SR/TW as a rough guideline, but given that I don't have the inherent +Recharge that SR offers, what attack chain should I be shooting for and how much global recharge do I need to stack to get there?

If you want the max optimal chain you'll need to hit 160% Global, and it'll probably rely on Ageless to keep up your endurance. Bit iffy on that since Bio Armor has some end tools that SR doesn't, but I had been running Ageless too, and at the tail end of its use it still gives 10% (so I was really floating towards 170% Global).

 

However if you're using the FF+Rech proc in FT and Arc, you've got a fair chance of one of those going off in a chain cycle and boosting your recharge anyway. Toss in Whirling Smash (slotted for proc and not purple set) with another FF+Rech and you up your chances even further. Just keep in mind, inside Mid's it'll try and auto toggle-on that proc in the power, you don't want to leave that toggled on as its not a perma effect, its temp and wont always fire, but it will give you a chance to see the impact it'll have when it pops. The FF+Rech proc will give you the ability to budget-build a bit more friendly and get away with a lower volume of global rech (140%)

[SmalltalkJava]

@Sir Myshkin  How much testing still needs to be done on the Tanker procs?  Any estimate on when we will get a final write-up?  

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, SmalltalkJava said:

@Sir Myshkin  How much testing still needs to be done on the Tanker procs?  Any estimate on when we will get a final write-up?  

The devs have left Beta in its current state for ... a month and a half now I think? Kinetic Melee was one of the last for-sure sets I wanted to test because it's the only other one that has a significant +Dam builder like Super Strength does, but it's bugged and hasn't been fixed. In the duration of waiting for any word on that, I've actually been messing around with some other concepts based on the Tank testing that I'll be able to mention in the final write up. I didn't want to have it incomplete which is the core of why I've waited. I also wanted to know for sure what alteration the next patch was supposed to take. Captain Powerhouse said they were rolling back some of the alterations to Rage (nothing that impacts the tests, just the modification to its crash and having a crash-less single-use option). If everything else goes forward, then my final write-up will be concrete, which is another reason for the delay.

[Shadowfane]

They've actually pulled the Rage changes entirely, so you can probably just go with whats on Live atm... 😛

[the mauler]

OK. So i have this build that i compiled from sources in the forums and it has good defense and some resistances. My question is this ( a practical question) - how much and what could i do with procs while maintaining the build with reasonable defense/resists?

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.5
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Capt. Blood: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: War Mace
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(3), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(7), LucoftheG-Def(15), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(21)
Level 1: Bash -- Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg(A), Mk'Bit-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Mk'Bit-Dmg/Rchg(11), Mk'Bit-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Mk'Bit-Dam%(21)
Level 2: Battle Agility -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(3), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(7), LucoftheG-Def(15), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(19)
Level 4: Jawbreaker -- Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg(A), Mk'Bit-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Mk'Bit-Dmg/Rchg(13), Mk'Bit-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(17), Mk'Bit-Dam%(17), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25)
Level 6: True Grit -- Ags-ResDam(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(9), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(11), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(37), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(39), GldArm-3defTpProc(46)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-ResDam%(9), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(27)
Level 10: Active Defense -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(48)
Level 12: Phalanx Fighting -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Super Jump -- UnbLea-Jump(A)
Level 16: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27), RechRdx-I(48)
Level 18: Grant Cover -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A)
Level 20: Clobber -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(23), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(37)
Level 22: Taunt -- MckBrt-Acc/Rchg(A)
Level 24: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 26: Shield Charge -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(29), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(29), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Obl-%Dam(31)
Level 28: Whirling Mace -- ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg(A), ScrDrv-Dmg/EndRdx(37), ScrDrv-Dmg/Rchg(40), ScrDrv-Acc/Rchg(43), ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), ScrDrv-Dam%(48)
Level 30: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Tough -- Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(33), Ags-EndRdx/Rchg(33), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Ags-ResDam(43)
Level 35: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def(36), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(36), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(50), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 38: Shatter -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(40), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(42)
Level 41: Crowd Control -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(45), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(45), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Obl-%Dam(46)
Level 44: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Physical Perfection -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-EndMod/Acc(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), NmnCnv-Heal(36), Mrc-Rcvry+(39), Mrc-Heal(39)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-EndMod/Rchg(34), PrfShf-EndMod/Acc(34)
Level 50: Paralytic Partial Radial Conversion 
Level 50: Assault Partial Radial Graft 
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
------------

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Edited November 8, 2019 by the mauler

[Sir Myshkin]

4 hours ago, the mauler said:

OK. So i have this build that i compiled from sources in the forums and it has good defense and some resistances. My question is this ( a practical question) - how much and what could i do with procs while maintaining the build with reasonable defense/resists?

I'll refer you back to this update on page 2. There's a SD/* build in there that you can core out and use as a blank to apply Mace to. Even with the build you posted, you mostly have what you need, but you don't want to use Agility as it'll negatively impact the probability return on Procs in your attacks. If you really want to rely on the Alpha to boost your defenses further, than I'd say use Nerve, and get the Accuracy kick instead. You shouldn't need to rely on any of your attacks for set bonuses with a Shield build, but you will have a surplus of one or two since Mace has a pretty solid chain with just a few attacks, so you can use one or two of them to mule out for a few global +Rech bonuses (Hecatomb, Armageddon, the AT-O, as examples) and get yourself a bit further into 120-130%.

 

Edit: Also, when you post a build, highly encourage the use of the "spoiler" function (the little "eye" icon in the edit options for a reply/post and it'll drop the spoiler field in).

Edited November 8, 2019 by Sir Myshkin

[MrMajesty]

Thanks so much for the guides - I'm really keen to give these kinds of toons a try. Serendipity for me too, given that I've just started re-rolling an old SD/SS toon; but I think I'll try and make him a proc-based character.

 

I'd love some comments on the build (attached) that I'm planning. I've loaded up on procs, got to the softcaps. I've got Darkest Night along (and this is the power I'm most upset lack of slotting) to shore up some of my defensive stats in incarnate content. Fairly happy with the level of resists I've got out of Shield. 

Couple of specific questions:
- Do you think I have enough to-hit in the build?
- Unsure re: the slotting for gloom. Can't put too many procs into it, but this purple set doesn't have the +acc in it... not sure what the right way to go is.

Any help, sincerely appreciated!

Tanker - Shield Defense - Super Strength.mxd

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, MrMajesty said:

Thanks so much for the guides - I'm really keen to give these kinds of toons a try. Serendipity for me too, given that I've just started re-rolling an old SD/SS toon; but I think I'll try and make him a proc-based character.

 

I'd love some comments on the build (attached) that I'm planning. I've loaded up on procs, got to the softcaps. I've got Darkest Night along (and this is the power I'm most upset lack of slotting) to shore up some of my defensive stats in incarnate content. Fairly happy with the level of resists I've got out of Shield. 

Couple of specific questions:
- Do you think I have enough to-hit in the build?
- Unsure re: the slotting for gloom. Can't put too many procs into it, but this purple set doesn't have the +acc in it... not sure what the right way to go is.

Any help, sincerely appreciated!

Tanker - Shield Defense - Super Strength.mxd 4.84 kB · 1 download

Best way to check for ToHit is going into Hero Designer, options, Configuration, Exemp&Math and change ToHit to 38. This is what hitting a +3 will be like which is what you will be at once you have your first level shift and fighting +4.

[Caulderone]

39% for +4, 48% for +3

[Sir Myshkin]

On 12/11/2019 at 4:38 PM, MrMajesty said:

Couple of specific questions:
- Do you think I have enough to-hit in the build?
- Unsure re: the slotting for gloom. Can't put too many procs into it, but this purple set doesn't have the +acc in it... not sure what the right way to go is.

You didn't take Phalanx Fighting? It's a better choice for you over something like Combat Jumping or Maneuvers for an ability that gives a base value of 3% that grows with additional team mates that also doesn't cost you anything to have.

 

You're definitely heavily relying on Rage for your accuracy correction which isn't a terrible thing, but as-is if you try and level with/into this build I'd bet you're going to struggle on the accuracy front from time to time, just keep that in mind pre-50 for some of your abilities.. You also have absolutely no endurance (and in several cases no Damage) enhancement in many of your attacks and that is definitely going to hurt you long-term. Foot Stomp alone sucks up 17 endurance per use, and if you've got a good cycle of FF+Rech going, you'll be able to use that nearly every 6/s. Your build barely has 3 EPS in recovery, that one attack alone already puts you in the negative for gain, and every/any other ability you use between cycles of that AoE is going to bury your endurance in a hurry.

 

You need some balance on your Dam/End in the remainder of your attacks. It's still worth it to have some enhancement for both of those. Reserve a slot or two (minimum) to this purpose before loading up on the Procs. Yes you have access to Rage for all that it can do to improve DPS, but you don't want to start off 20 feet behind the starting line out of spite.

[MrMajesty]

Thanks for noticing me, senpai. ❤️ Really appreciate the work you've put into these guides.

And great feedback. Frankly, I didn't realise Phalanx Fighting had a base of 3%, hence why I took the leadership pool instead, I'll swap that. Re: endurance, that's a great observation - I'll make some changes to get some end reduction in. 

 

Cheers!

[Myrmidon]

I am awaiting the Kinetic Melee test with great interest.

[carroto]

Is there information anywhere on how to calculate the chances for procs in Chain Induction?  I came here hoping to find that.  Bopper's PPM guide says that it should use the sphere Area Factor formula.  However I can't find the jump radius listed in Mids', so I don't know what values to plug in.  Is that available anywhere?

[Bopper]

16 hours ago, carroto said:

Is there information anywhere on how to calculate the chances for procs in Chain Induction?  I came here hoping to find that.  Bopper's PPM guide says that it should use the sphere Area Factor formula.  However I can't find the jump radius listed in Mids', so I don't know what values to plug in.  Is that available anywhere?

I believe the radius is 10 feet. 

[carroto]

3 hours ago, Bopper said:

I believe the radius is 10 feet.

Chain Induction

0%	0%	20%	20%	40%	40%	60%	60%	80%	80%
proc%	bdmg%	proc%	bdmg%	proc%	bdmg%	proc%	bdmg%	proc%	bdmg%
41.69	50.94	35.29	43.12	30.71	37.59	27.28	33.33	24.61	30.07

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe a bit messy, but this is what I came up with based on a 10 foot radius for the chances of a 3.5 PPM damage proc firing at various levels of slotted recharge, with the average proc damage expressed as a percentage of base damage of the power (i.e. how much damage enhancement it can replace).

 

Not great for a single-target power, but not bad for one that can hit multiple targets.

 

It just occurred to me to question whether the initial target gets the same calculation.  Does the first target take damage from the pet, or is that a regular hit which then summons a pet to do the rest?  If it's the former there may be a chance that the first target gets a higher proc probability.  Has anyone looked at this?