Focused Feedback: Rage

[MunkiLord]

16 hours ago, Megajoule said:

My admittedly selfish opinion is that stacking Rage is a bad, broken mechanic that should be gotten rid of, the devs shouldn't clone the set but fix the one we have, and those who want the damage spike without the crash (or one they can ignore/avoid/min-max around) can #%$*ing lump it. 😛

My admittedly selfish opinion is that the stacking Rage issue is delaying it being on Scrappers, so I'm all about your suggestion. 

[Jolly Ogre]

Umm...i have read all this and i am still not sure if all this testing was done correctly.

 

These tests need to have been done with just even level SO's only. No sets, no accolades, no level shift, no outside pets. That is the only way to have a equal test of powers. And I have not seen how they have slotted the powers to get the kind of results that they are reporting. Can anyone verify that this was done properly?

[Demon Shell]

2 hours ago, Jolly Ogre said:

Umm...i have read all this and i am still not sure if all this testing was done correctly.

 

These tests need to have been done with just even level SO's only. No sets, no accolades, no level shift, no outside pets. That is the only way to have a equal test of powers. And I have not seen how they have slotted the powers to get the kind of results that they are reporting. Can anyone verify that this was done properly?

IOs exist. They're cheaper and more accessible now than ever before. Ignoring them creates the disproportionate issues we're having now with double stacked Rage and TW having momentum for way longer than it would with SOs, leaving other melee sets behind.

 

SO balance is just a matter of if you can clear content within an acceptable time-frame. We're past that. We have to look at IOs now. Not necessarily a fully purpled out build, but people are going to use Gaussian, that effects damage caps. They're going to use Luck of the Gambler, that's a significant recharge boost. These things can't be ignored anymore.

 

+0/0 is not balanced around IO sets, but inter-balance between primary/secondary pools and different ATs must take IOs into account.

[Jolly Ogre]

55 minutes ago, Demon Shell said:

IOs exist. They're cheaper and more accessible now than ever before. Ignoring them creates the disproportionate issues we're having now with double stacked Rage and TW having momentum for way longer than it would with SOs, leaving other melee sets behind.

 

SO balance is just a matter of if you can clear content within an acceptable time-frame. We're past that. We have to look at IOs now. Not necessarily a fully purpled out build, but people are going to use Gaussian, that effects damage caps. They're going to use Luck of the Gambler, that's a significant recharge boost. These things can't be ignored anymore.

 

+0/0 is not balanced around IO sets, but inter-balance between primary/secondary pools and different ATs must take IOs into account.

If that is in fact the case then you have to do all IO sets that may be possibly slotted into the powers, not just what you "think" someone will slot. 

 

Some may slot for recharge, some may for procs, some for dmg. YOU do not know what or how they will slot. 

 

The ONLY way to have a fair and balance test is to just use SO's and then you still have the variations of how many of what is slotted.

[Megajoule]

Balancing around SOs leaves out the first twenty levels.  Clearly, to be utterly fair, we should be balancing around TOs. 😛

[Haijinx]

You have to do both.  Look at SO and IO. 

 

But you can't ignore IOs, that would just pave the way for unbalanced builds.

[skoryy]

I'd say a good metric would be performance at set levels of damage and recharge, like the scrapper DPS spreadsheet.

[Sir Myshkin]

56 minutes ago, skoryy said:

I'd say a good metric would be performance at set levels of damage and recharge, like the scrapper DPS spreadsheet.

If you're talking about the most recent one done by Kaeladin, that was entirely done with IO's, as was the foundation his work was started from. If you're referring to the stuff started up by Hopeling and Galaxy Brain, they're doing both SO and IO variance. Even when using just SO's they showed the disparity of TW against other sets (as an example of known indifference in the IO world).

 

7 hours ago, Jolly Ogre said:

Umm...i have read all this and i am still not sure if all this testing was done correctly.

As an honest question, at what stage in the process does it matter to test the improvement of a Tank's performance (from a damage scale) between SO and IO? Irregardless of either, the variance is notable, testable, variable compared to existing frame work. What exactly are you under the impression is tested in the wrong? I have to assume, this being the Rage thread, you're referring to the Rage changes that, per Captain Powerhouse, are being rolled back irregardless. None of the changes that were made make what was done any less possible on the currently live server outside of the base-line damage buff to the entire AT.

 

Why do you think SOs, a portion of the game that have only existed alone from Issue "0" to Issue 8, when IO's have been in this game since Issue 9, should be the base line going forward? Officially, at sunset, we had 23 active Issues, which means the greater portion of the game included IO's (14 versus "9"). Should I not try and test and validate the condition that IO's impact the game when talking about any kind of change?

 

7 hours ago, Jolly Ogre said:

And I have not seen how they have slotted the powers to get the kind of results that they are reporting.

Everything that I have tested is extensively documented between Beta and on a thread in the Tanker section, including the associated builds, and videos. No, they are not SO builds, because no, in this environment, I personally do not see what value testing on SO's actually brings to the table. I also do not see what value testing without Incarnates adds to the table as that too is an aspect of the game that is easily accessible, and functionally improves the foundation of a build no differently than another basic SO would.

 

But, again, what specifically are you referring to, because if it is the Rage changes, nothing was done to Rage in the testing environment that changed its performance from a damage perspective, purely only on the negative Defense/Resistance standpoint, which would've actually benefited all builds, irregardless of SO/IO.

 

3 hours ago, Jolly Ogre said:

Some may slot for recharge, some may for procs, some for dmg. YOU do not know what or how they will slot. 

 

The ONLY way to have a fair and balance test is to just use SO's and then you still have the variations of how many of what is slotted.

If you want to impose that restriction on IO's, you would have to do the same for SO's as not everyone is, nor does, slot their builds the same way. You can only judge for an approximation mean value and work your way from there. When the original Devs said "balanced on SO's" it was to show that, at the very most basic level, the game could be played without investing in the IO world, and could functionally build and play any character at its core principles. This is also why there are "basic" IO's available to players. They give a mildly improved value over SO's (no different than such as Hami-O's did), and can be slotted under the same premise, and were designed to help transition an SO player into an IO build, and the concepts of IO builds. The foundation of multi-layered enhancements wasn't new, though, because we did have the Hamidon Origin's already intermixing and changing up the dynamic, yet no one ever says "Gotta balance on HO's."

 

At the end, many new sets were clearly designed around IO functionality and interconnection, and all of the content we were seeing coming down the pipeline was intended for "End Game" play, which was pushing more reliance on having (at minimum) a basic/fundamental IO build. It just wouldn't be possible to blanket-statement anymore that the original devs weren't shifting the balance of the game to work with IO's.

[ryuplaneswalker]

5 hours ago, Demon Shell said:

SO balance is just a matter of if you can clear content within an acceptable time-frame. We're past that. We have to look at IOs now. Not necessarily a fully purpled out build, but people are going to use Gaussian, that effects damage caps. They're going to use Luck of the Gambler, that's a significant recharge boost. These things can't be ignored anymore.

And that is something that should be looked at at the IO level. IO sets have always been terribly balanced against each other. There are only two ways to IO yourself out..Survival or Recharge.

[siolfir]

8 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

I also do not see what value testing without Incarnates adds to the table as that too is an aspect of the game that is easily accessible, and functionally improves the foundation of a build no differently than another basic SO would.

The only thing about this statement that I would point out is that Incarnate powers are not available for all content: for example, while running Task Forces with a level cap lower than 45. Not that it will make that much difference in my opinion, but tests at level 44 (max non-Incarnate, but you have all of your powers) might be worthwhile, and every 5 levels from 25-40 for "levelling build tests" might be appropriate, even if they're for a 50 that's exemplared to do relative performance testing at the default TF "cap" levels. Below that, you don't have Rage available, although Knockout Blow comes very early (20) compared to other sets' heavy hitters (35-38, with a few exceptions).

 

Yes, it's less than a handful of hours to get to level 50 on an alt in a farm, but even for a level 50 you may not always be playing content at that level.

 

2 minutes ago, ryuplaneswalker said:

There are only two ways to IO yourself out..Survival or Recharge.

Eh... I guess procs could fall under the recharge category, but I would consider it a third option. Frankenslotting would be a fourth, but while it can free up slots it's far less effective than the others and usually more of an add-on to one of the others with the current economy instead of a full-build option to maximize enhanced values of every power.

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, Sir Myshkin said:

No, they are not SO builds, because no, in this environment, I personally do not see what value testing on SO's actually brings to the table. I also do not see what value testing without Incarnates adds to the table as that too is an aspect of the game that is easily accessible, and functionally improves the foundation of a build no differently than another basic SO would.

Incarnates and IOs perform the same for all characters regardless of what power sets they're using. When you test a heavily IO'd and Incarnated character, those IOs and Incarnates contribute a sizeable portion to the character's performance, and obscure what the character's chosen sets and AT contribute to the performance. As an example, if you were to test a softcapped Energy Blaster against a softcapped Fire Blaster, the Fire Blaster would seem way ahead in performance, because the IOs would obviate the way the Energy Blaster's knockback greatly improves its survivability.

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

Incarnates and IOs perform the same for all characters regardless of what power sets they're using. When you test a heavily IO'd and Incarnated character, those IOs and Incarnates contribute a sizeable portion to the character's performance, and obscure what the character's chosen sets and AT contribute to the performance. As an example, if you were to test a softcapped Energy Blaster against a softcapped Fire Blaster, the Fire Blaster would seem way ahead in performance, because the IOs would obviate the way the Energy Blaster's knockback greatly improves its survivability.

First I will say this: I lump summed my response to Jolly's statement of " No sets, no accolades, no level shift, no outside pets."

Beyond that, it isn't impossible, or inconceivable that a player could (might, I mean, I've never seen someone go the distance, but they could) play an SO build in Incarnate content, wholly exclusive of IO's.

 

Past that, I'm not certain that your example really works. I do get what you're trying to imply with it, but IO's or not, there's actually just a natural disparity between Energy Blast and Fire Blast. Well, frankly there's a canyon, but at least it's a small one. Anyway, there's a natural difference in damage performance, sure, but IO's actually help Energy enhance its performance in unique ways that Fire can't through the KB IO's specifically. That's an entire extra category of procs that Fire doesn't have a... cce... ss ... to...

 

Actually, I really don't like you right now* /em opens Mids.

 

;walks away lost in thought about a 300% recharge Energy Build.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Sir Myshkin
*I'm kidding, but really... I'll be in Mids.

[Bossk_Hogg]

13 hours ago, Jolly Ogre said:

Umm...i have read all this and i am still not sure if all this testing was done correctly.

 

These tests need to have been done with just even level SO's only. No sets, no accolades, no level shift, no outside pets. That is the only way to have a equal test of powers. And I have not seen how they have slotted the powers to get the kind of results that they are reporting. Can anyone verify that this was done properly?

IO's have been in the game longer than they haven't. I think testing w some basic ass set like crushing impact and whatnot is more realistic of play. Testing w SO's has about as much value in testing with DO's. I also cant imagine the people still using SO's only at this point really care about THAt balance or read the forums much. They sure as hell arent running pylons. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Bossk_Hogg]

2 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

Past that, I'm not certain that your example really works. I do get what you're trying to imply with it, but IO's or not, there's actually just a natural disparity between Energy Blast and Fire Blast. Well, frankly there's a canyon, but at least it's a small one. Anyway, there's a natural difference in damage performance, sure, but IO's actually help Energy enhance its performance in unique ways that Fire can't through the KB IO's specifically. That's an entire extra category of procs that Fire doesn't have a... cce... ss ... to...

 

Actually, I really don't like you right now* /em opens Mids.

 

;walks away lost in thought about a 300% recharge Energy Build.

Wall of Force is likely going to find itself as a FF proc mule. 

[ryuplaneswalker]

On 10/21/2019 at 9:30 PM, siolfir said:

Eh... I guess procs could fall under the recharge category, but I would consider it a third option. Frankenslotting would be a fourth, but while it can free up slots it's far less effective than the others and usually more of an add-on to one of the others with the current economy instead of a full-build option to maximize enhanced values of every power.

Well, Procs don't work for every spec, and while Frankenslotting can be good you still lose out on the power of having an absurd amount of free recharge. My main point was that the actual bonuses are not balanced in what they can do, you can get 80% recharge with very little effort..but you can't get 80% Damage Buff, heck even in terms of the "powerful" set bonuses Recharge still has huge advantages in that the majority of purple 5 sets are recharge.

[Major_Decoy]

Well, if we're including selfish opinions: Make Rage a passive. Not a toggle, not a click. It's just "Hey, you've been at this for 28 levels and you've gotten better at what you do."

[Golden Azrael]

On 10/21/2019 at 4:43 AM, Sir Myshkin said:

Off topic, but I'd be super curious to see how TW would perform if we took away the animation adjustment of Momentum. Leave the trigger and duration there for Follow Through and Whirling to activate, but don't alter the animation times of anything else in the swing of things. I'd wager that brings the set down in a pretty heavy order.

 

Hmm, actually, I think I could. The adjustments would mean Whirling Smash would be higher DPA than Arc at that point, and so would Crushing Blow. I could just run Rend > FT > WS > CB > FT and it'd be as if the variance was removed. Hmm, I might try that.

 

EDIT:

Okay, I don't know if this is better or worse 🤣 But I popped onto Pineapple real quick and tested that chain. 3:09 to take down a Pylon with Hybrid Assault Core on, and then 3:20 without it. I mean, at least that moved it down to be more in line with the "upper" tier of "normal" current Tank times I've explored, but... that's still just running purely on its own merits, and some of those other better performers were still working with the added +Dam and -Res of Bio Armor to get their 3:00 windows.

I don't doubt TWs damage potential.  But I think it plays dreadful.  The weapon swishes about erratically.  I still can't figure out what it's doing. 

 

The disconnect in play feels weird to me.  Stone/Ice/EM all have a solid sense of hit and land the punch.  TWs flits around like a giant kipper.  It feels like a power/weapon from a another game that doesn't fit into the CoH play mechanic.  Dual Swords.  Katana.  Most sets have a sense of gravity.  Dark melee.  When you hit.  You can 'feel' it.

 

I've had to give up on TWs for a while at L20.  I just don't like it.

 

That aside.  Why are other tank melee sets like Stone/Ice/EM languishing behind TWs?  The tank AT is getting a design pass.  Long overdue.

 

But I feel this was an opportunity to do a very simple damage design pass in terms of 'in class AT' review.  eg.  SS has Rage which can be 2-3 stacked.  TWs is out there on its own because the Devs wanted the punters into play the new mEGAR powUR set.  Sure.

 

My request is two fold.

 

1.  Give Tanks a domi button.  Which builds upto being ready to press?

2. Press for a 2 minute 'BU' (basically, a single stack 'press' of Rage or a Two Minute BU.  Semantics.)

 

This would result in reducing the disparity of the other tanks.  SS would still be POWURful.  TWs would still be out there.  But boy, it would allow the older (fun to play) sets more oomph.  Which they are surely lacking.

 

Azrael.

[golstat2003]

5 minutes ago, Golden Azrael said:

I don't doubt TWs damage potential.  But I think it plays dreadful.  The weapon swishes about erratically.  I still can't figure out what it's doing. 

 

The disconnect in play feels weird to me.  Stone/Ice/EM all have a solid sense of hit and land the punch.  TWs flits around like a giant kipper.  It feels like a power/weapon from a another game that doesn't fit into the CoH play mechanic.  Dual Swords.  Katana.  Most sets have a sense of gravity.  Dark melee.  When you hit.  You can 'feel' it.

 

I've had to give up on TWs for a while at L20.  I just don't like it.

 

That aside.  Why are other tank melee sets like Stone/Ice/EM languishing behind TWs?  The tank AT is getting a design pass.  Long overdue.

 

But I feel this was an opportunity to do a very simple damage design pass in terms of 'in class AT' review.  eg.  SS has Rage which can be 2-3 stacked.  TWs is out there on its own because the Devs wanted the punters into play the new mEGAR powUR set.  Sure.

 

My request is two fold.

 

1.  Give Tanks a domi button.  Which builds upto being ready to press?

2. Press for a 2 minute 'BU' (basically, a single stack 'press' of Rage or a Two Minute BU.  Semantics.)

 

This would result in reducing the disparity of the other tanks.  SS would still be POWURful.  TWs would still be out there.  But boy, it would allow the older (fun to play) sets more oomph.  Which they are surely lacking.

 

Azrael.

I think that's the eventual plan. For now thought they should get the overall tank changes out and completed.

[Myrmidon]

On 10/23/2019 at 10:44 AM, golstat2003 said:

I think that's the eventual plan. For now thought they should get the overall tank changes out and completed.

Agreed. We finish this pass, the Captain does his Resist Passive pass (which I can’t wait to test out!) and then onto other AT/Powerset passes.

[Golden Azrael]

On 10/21/2019 at 1:55 AM, Sir Myshkin said:

All this question does is incite chaos. I'm not making the statement that Super Strength is the second strongest set because it's a good thing, I'm stating it as a bad thing, because it sits there alongside another set that is knowingly broken, but lacks a solution to correct. I am also making that statement to bring truth to the situation that so many people have either hid behind, or denied this entire time. I am actively stating it needs to be balanced, which in this case does mean nerf.

 

So please don't try and turn that into anything more, we have enough of it already.

 

Questions do incite chaos.  That's a good thing.  It's up to Homecoming to make sense of that chaos.  They will do what they must.

 

Their solution over fixing Snipe's IO pay wall was elegant and in the spirit of the game's original (non-IO infested) pick up and play mandate.  If they can do the same for the Tank AT's melee 'brokenness' I'll stand by what they decided.  They've shown good faith so far.

 

Truth?  If you find any, let me know.  Though any player can find this 'truth' by playing several tanks, squishes, brutes or TWs or Ice melee on a tank.

 

I don't think 'it' needs a nerf.  'Lacks a solution' is closer to the mark.  Try thinking of one, maybe?  Better to find one before reaching for the nerf (negative thinking) bat.

 

Who is hiding or denying?  

 

Or in short.  

 

Good luck balancing any MMO.

 

That said.  'Balancing' could mean bringing up the under performing sets higher.  For which their are numerous solutions.  Some people (homecoming too) may decide it needs a nerf under the 'balance' guise.  They've played the game for years.  I think they've provided numerous quality of life aspects to the game.  

 

The original developers put SS/TWs out there like that.  They had many years to fix them.  So why didn't they?  They stood by their design decisions.  Or it clearly wasn't a priority to 'fix.'

 

I don't think they are broken as such.  I don't think they need nerfs.  They can stand on their own.  That said, I don't like TWs play style (I still don't get it after 20 levels....a bit shoe horned into the CoH game engine?  I'd just throw it in the bin and start again) and the crash from Rage agitates playing the SS strength set.  A bit of tidying up on those two?  Up to them, I guess.  You either have the penalty or you don't.  If you have a penalty you decide how much.  What.  When.  1st stack of Rage?  2nd?  3rd?  And again.  How much?  -Luck?  -res?  End Crash?  Recharge crash?  Defenceless 'beating on' thing for 10 seconds?  Or run away thing?  

 

As an example, on my SR/SJ tank.  I can get BU really quick.  Every 25-28 secs.  'Click.'  And?  Well.  I click it.  Having Rage as a click every 2 mins is a bit whoop de doo to me.  Other tanks only get a single stack of 15 sec(?) of BU.  And Rage has two mins of 80% dam and 20% to hit.  Then you can stack it....and again for a brief while.

 

Simplicity if the ultimate sophistication.  And the batton is passed and onus is now on Homecoming to find that solution.  A burden of love, I'm sure.

 

The creative solution is to make the other sets better.  Whilst also tidying up the flaws in 'broken' sets e.g. Rages in SS (and TWs?  Good luck.)  All the noodling over number comparisons on Rikti towers is pretty academic.  It's pretty obvious.  Most players can tell which ATs and sets are most 'fun' by playing them.

 

Sure, I can write down the numbers from EM and Street Justice side by side.  But the play styles and hitting power is obvious through just playing it.

 

The 'crash' mechanism seems out of mode design wise.  It caused more irritation than anything.  Especially in Rage's case.  A single crash less press rage button for two mins?  And adjust the tier 1 and 2 damages for SS.  I think Cap Powerhouse has said it far more eloquently elsewhere.  Other tanks have to click BU and wait 45 seconds -1:30 for 15 seconds.  

 

'All those who have power are frightened to lose it.'

 

It will mean a class AT pass to noodle the damage numbers for each melee set higher for tanks.  (To compete better with the SS 'Rage' Tank)

 

or...

 

A chance to flex their developer design muscles and give each Tank AT an equivalent mechanism e.g. in EM, ice or stone's case.

 

Another idea is a generic hero set could be made of the many melee animations out there for a 'Rage-less' set following the BU design.  Additionally, offer SS minus Rage as an optional set, stick in BU and buff the rest of the lower tier numbers.  

 

If it was me?  I'd just make BU last a minute.  Even that would give the old tired tanker melee ATs like EM/Ice and Stone a shot in the arm.

 

Azrael.

 

Quote

Agreed. We finish this pass, the Captain does his Resist Passive pass (which I can’t wait to test out!) and then onto other AT/Powerset passes.

•  

I think it's going to come down to this.  Eventually.  You can't do it all at once, I guess.  They did a good job tidying up snipe from behind it's IO paywall.

 

I look forward to them democratising other Tank AT melee sets in this fashion.  They're very respectful of the spirit of the Coh Game and Developer's intentions but if they can add something else, a better idea or refinements or even take a design leap if its justified...I'll be interested in seeing that they do.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Golden Azrael

[AsheTDust]

Why are they bothering to mess with SS and rage at all when Titan Weapons clearly outclasses every melee damage set out there?

 

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

Spend some time adjusting Titan Weapons and then we'll talk about SS.

Edited November 3, 2019 by AsheTDust

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, AsheTDust said:

Why are they bothering to mess with SS and rage at all when Titan Weapons clearly outclasses every melee damage set out there?

 

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

Spend some time adjusting Titan Weapons and then we'll talk about SS.

Because this is a buff, not a nerf? If they were nerfing Super Strength, you might have a point.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

Because this is a buff, not a nerf? If they were nerfing Super Strength, you might have a point.

I wonder if the issue is that its a "nerf" for pure resist armor sets like Fire and Electric 

[AsheTDust]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I wonder if the issue is that its a "nerf" for pure resist armor sets like Fire and Electric 

Bingo. Plus now we have to more closely monitor when rage is going to expire so as avoid losing damage potential but we can’t let it automatically stack otherwise we get hit with the -res.

 

Its not a world ending catastrophe by any means, but it is one more issue to have to deal with now that was never a problem before.

 

If they really need to mess with it, just boost rage so the damage buff is at 1.5 and turn it into a toggle.  It’ll give the non min-max’ers a nice little buff and stop the extreme hard core players from double or triple stacking it.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, AsheTDust said:

Bingo. Plus now we have to more closely monitor when rage is going to expire so as avoid losing damage potential but we can’t let it automatically stack otherwise we get hit with the -res.

 

Meenwhile the Defense sets have been extra handicapped the whole time though.