Why so many chaotic Controllers?

[Heraclea]

On 1/3/2020 at 10:36 AM, Erydanus said:

No I'm talking about 20 pissed off Cimmerorans who are charging back down the long hill, focusing on the squishies while the tank is a couple spawns ahead and not pulling them along with him as he bullets through yet another spawn.

I avoid playing like that when I am on a tanker.  I prefer to wait until one spawn is down before aggroing the next.  Rushing forward into the next prematurely means that there are bosses wandering around in the backfield.   I want to make sure they're dealt with before aggroing more.  Ambushes are another matter entirely of course: they must be intercepted, and on an ITF they may come from either direction. 

[Dahle]

I just want to put out there that I have also noticed this when grouping with other controllers.  I play Fire/Dark, Elec/Storm and Elec/Poison. 

On my Fire troller I open with Bonfire now because of how absolutely broken it can be, the mobs are still able to migrate to the tank if the tank stays in the Bonfire the mitigation from the Knockup is great and I only cast my Immob when they have grouped more, preferring to target with other things first. 

On my Elec/Storm I actually open most pulls with Static Aura and then bunch the mob for the group with Hurricane, thus not needing the tank to group the mobs, I drop Fences early on this scenario. 

My Elec/Poison is the more interesting one, I open with Weaken and Envenom after the tank initially pulls and then drop a Static Aura, if the tank hasn't sufficiently group the mob at that point they will usually wake from the sleep and move over to them before I get to cages again because I'll drop another Weaken and Envenom because of the CD being low on them. 

 

But really it doesn't match to much if I do any of this, the other controllers are trying to set up containment as early as possible so that they can get their damage in.  We, as controllers, are not a DPS AT, we are there to control, mitigate and buff/debuff.  And Dominators, who don't even need containment are even worse, they don't need to open with an immob at all, just choose the taregt the tank is already on and open with Single-Target.  It is why I prefer being the only Controller on a team, I few sad that I don't have someone to stack mag with, but at least we play more along my style, because the old way is faster then the new way, even if the new way lets us all be blasters.

[GM Miss]

I find with my doms I stack +rech to get my hold as close to every mob perma as possible. I open with it and basically farm +4x8 myself.

[Frosticus]

4 hours ago, Dahle said:

But really it doesn't match to much if I do any of this, the other controllers are trying to set up containment as early as possible so that they can get their damage in.  We, as controllers, are not a DPS AT, we are there to control, mitigate and buff/debuff.  And Dominators, who don't even need containment are even worse, they don't need to open with an immob at all, just choose the taregt the tank is already on and open with Single-Target.  It is why I prefer being the only Controller on a team, I few sad that I don't have someone to stack mag with, but at least we play more along my style, because the old way is faster then the new way, even if the new way lets us all be blasters.

If the team already has mitigation then it doesn't need control, at which point you can see why a controller is trying to become a dps'er via containment.

 

Conversely, a dom using a st control on something the tank has already neutralized is a waste. I find myself more and more often simply dropping sleet and fighting on my dom. I have controls handy if health bars start declining, but they are rarely needed on most semi decent teams. 

[luxlorica]

I too have noticed the phenomenon of track-star tanks.

 

They aren't in any danger and seem perfectly happy to just stand in some swarm or another for days plinking away while the squishies gather up enough aggro to demolish themselves and then accuse those same squishies of leeching, especially if they dare suggest that the tank might want to pay a little attention to their party rather than playing the solo version of this particular endeavor.

 

But of course that's because those tank don’t need anyone else. Nothing there can kill them. Nothing there can even test them. No one else in the party is helping them so why should they slow down for the weak-knee’ed caster types? Everyone fend for themselves. Looks perfectly reasonable for a tank.

 

Not the proper mindset? They are a bad tank? Sure, you aren’t wrong about that.

 

But lets look at controllers.

 

Your powers are soft and feathery in a world where everyone else is swinging sledgehammers. When that blaster hits their “I win” combo, when that scrapper throws some massive judgment and then drops a critical AoE, it can be easy to feel utterly useless.

 

Eventually a controller learns that if they don’t get something off the instant they get within sight of a group of mobs, they will just be watching. It feels pretty bad.

 

And even though CC is legitimately useless - being either ignored or landing on the scorched stains of where mobs used to be - landing them early lets you pretend that you are contributing.

 

There are, of course, contingent situations where CC has some utility. But in the damage economy, holds don’t buy you much.

 

So you do as much as you can do as fast as you can do it.

 

Its mostly a self-health thing.

 

Often doing nothing would net the same result, but you would feel worse for it.

 

And who wants that?

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by luxlorica

[Doc Ranger]

Sounds like the Citadel TF I did last night on my Time/Sonic Defender. Most of the time mobs were dead before I even got there.

 

Rarely got a chance to help out anyone other than myself with Farsight or Chronoshift. 
 

Tried to convince myself my Sonic blasts were allowing the team to do even more damage but it was a fantasy. 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Ice_Warden

[Sovera]

On 1/7/2020 at 3:38 AM, luxlorica said:

I too have noticed the phenomenon of track-star tanks.

 

They aren't in any danger and seem perfectly happy to just stand in some swarm or another for days plinking away while the squishies gather up enough aggro to demolish themselves and then accuse those same squishies of leeching, especially if they dare suggest that the tank might want to pay a little attention to their party rather than playing the solo version of this particular endeavor.

 

But of course that's because those tank don’t need anyone else. Nothing there can kill them. Nothing there can even test them. No one else in the party is helping them so why should they slow down for the weak-knee’ed caster types? Everyone fend for themselves. Looks perfectly reasonable for a tank.

 

Not the proper mindset? They are a bad tank? Sure, you aren’t wrong about that.

 

But lets look at controllers.

 

Your powers are soft and feathery in a world where everyone else is swinging sledgehammers. When that blaster hits their “I win” combo, when that scrapper throws some massive judgment and then drops a critical AoE, it can be easy to feel utterly useless.

 

Eventually a controller learns that if they don’t get something off the instant they get within sight of a group of mobs, they will just be watching. It feels pretty bad.

 

And even though CC is legitimately useless - being either ignored or landing on the scorched stains of where mobs used to be - landing them early lets you pretend that you are contributing.

 

There are, of course, contingent situations where CC has some utility. But in the damage economy, holds don’t buy you much.

 

So you do as much as you can do as fast as you can do it.

 

Its mostly a self-health thing.

 

Often doing nothing would net the same result, but you would feel worse for it.

 

And who wants that?

 

 

I've said this to trigger happy controllers when they mass immobilize before the mobs  got close, which means they didn't get in range of my  agro aura and are not hating on the Controller and on the loose.

 

'I know you guys want to feel useful, but wait until the mobs are close to unleash your AoE immobilize, please'.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Sovera

[Solarverse]

On 1/7/2020 at 6:32 AM, Ice_Warden said:

Sounds like the Citadel TF I did last night on my Time/Sonic Defender. Most of the time mobs were dead before I even got there.

 

Rarely got a chance to help out anyone other than myself with Farsight or Chronoshift. 
 

Tried to convince myself my Sonic blasts were allowing the team to do even more damage but it was a fantasy. 

I think that has more to do with this new wave of people who only want to run content at +0. I always run mine at +1, I would run +2, but the PLed 50's on the team will cry about it if I do, since they only came for the badge. I actually miss the days when you could not change the difficulty of the TF. You ran it as is, like it or not. It was a challenge that I appreciated. Now everyone runs content on the lowest possible setting and then complains that it's too east.  0.o

[roleki]

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

I think that has more to do with this new wave of people who only want to run content at +0. I always run mine at +1, I would run +2, but the PLed 50's on the team will cry about it if I do, since they only came for the badge. I actually miss the days when you could not change the difficulty of the TF. You ran it as is, like it or not. It was a challenge that I appreciated. Now everyone runs content on the lowest possible setting and then complains that it's too east.  0.o

What server is that on?  Unless it's specifically advertised as a speed run, every PuG/TF I've joined on Indom runs +4/8, and if it isn't +4/8, it gets brought up quickly.  I wasn't aware that THAT was in any way abnormal.  

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, roleki said:

What server is that on?  Unless it's specifically advertised as a speed run, every PuG/TF I've joined on Indom runs +4/8, and if it isn't +4/8, it gets brought up quickly.  I wasn't aware that THAT was in any way abnormal.  

Excelsior server.

 

I'm also speaking more on Posi through Numina. Not so much speaking about the level 50 TF's.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Solarverse

[Clave Dark 5]

On 1/3/2020 at 8:36 AM, Erydanus said:

No I'm talking about 20 pissed off Cimmerorans who are charging back down the long hill, focusing on the squishies while the tank is a couple spawns ahead and not pulling them along with him as he bullets through yet another spawn.

I've no idea why, but every time I've ever played that TF, it's always been run by exactly that sort of (pardon the language) "farmer bro" player who takes off as if expecting everyone knows the mission maps as well as they do, and won't even offer advice nor answer questions in any depth when asked, "follow me, stay away from the bosses."  Sure, it doesn't help that every time I've done that TF  I've been a squishie as I don't have a built-up farmer-level toon, but still.  Stepping out onto shore and finding the leader already over half a map away; later trying to figure out where they are while I'm still half a map away from the giant robot silo... the last time I ended up just hovering way up in the air whilst they duked it out with the final big bad below, I think I maybe healed them once or twice.   Of course, since it was all about them, they didn't care or complain.  

 

"Sir, this is an Arby's."

[Carnifax]

On 1/9/2020 at 9:27 AM, Clave Dark 5 said:

I've no idea why, but every time I've ever played that TF, it's always been run by exactly that sort of (pardon the language) "farmer bro" player who takes off as if expecting everyone knows the mission maps as well as they do, and won't even offer advice nor answer questions in any depth when asked, "follow me, stay away from the bosses."  Sure, it doesn't help that every time I've done that TF  I've been a squishie as I don't have a built-up farmer-level toon, but still.  Stepping out onto shore and finding the leader already over half a map away; later trying to figure out where they are while I'm still half a map away from the giant robot silo... the last time I ended up just hovering way up in the air whilst they duked it out with the final big bad below, I think I maybe healed them once or twice.   Of course, since it was all about them, they didn't care or complain.  

 

"Sir, this is an Arby's."

I've had mixed bags on Reunion. Some amazing tanks who communicate, tank and check the squishies, some not so much. Had a RWZ like that where I was both a Plant / Storm squishy and the only support on the team and the Tank was a Scrapperlock tanker. That wasn't much fun. 

 

I tend to only bring my Ill/Dark on high level TFs now because I know she's capable of at least holding the line and keeping fellow squishies upright if the Tank is off elsewhere Scrapperlocking. 

 

(And yes, she's total chaos control but that's the raison d'etre for an Illusionist)

[Razia]

I have mixed experiences with Tanks, but most on Reunion are good tanks. Brutes on the other hand....

 

But what is really driving me mad is the amount of shitty and bossy emps that are running around. Starting with the ones that don't take any attacks besides the first one and put heal on auto. Or the lazy one, that has the buffs but does not use them. Or the one that puts clear mind on the melees (not talking lowbie teams here). But the worst is the one that bosses everyone around and think that the team can't go on without them. I had one screaming to the Blaster (who was totally fine) not to attack first. And they tend to insist that you come to them for buffs, even if you don't need them. They are in over their head and think only they have value buffs. I never had that happen with any other support set, be it kin, dark, cold, thermal, pain or whatever. They just buff on the go and deal with it. Plus they are super ignorant about other powersets. We got a kinetics with speed boost and a Dark with Soul Absoprtion, we don't want to run all the way back to you just to get Recovery Aura, regardless of how many times you insist we do. And when they announce you how to stay near them for the heal, out Thermal would like to have a word with you.

 

Can someone explain to me what's wrong with them?

 

Sorry for the ran, but I could write a book about those types of emps.

 

 

[quixoteprog]

2 minutes ago, Razia said:

I have mixed experiences with Tanks, but most on Reunion are good tanks. Brutes on the other hand....

 

But what is really driving me mad is the amount of shitty and bossy emps that are running around. Starting with the ones that don't take any attacks besides the first one and put heal on auto. Or the lazy one, that has the buffs but does not use them. Or the one that puts clear mind on the melees (not talking lowbie teams here). But the worst is the one that bosses everyone around and think that the team can't go on without them. I had one screaming to the Blaster (who was totally fine) not to attack first. And they tend to insist that you come to them for buffs, even if you don't need them. They are in over their head and think only they have value buffs. I never had that happen with any other support set, be it kin, dark, cold, thermal, pain or whatever. They just buff on the go and deal with it. Plus they are super ignorant about other powersets. We got a kinetics with speed boost and a Dark with Soul Absoprtion, we don't want to run all the way back to you just to get Recovery Aura, regardless of how many times you insist we do. And when they announce you how to stay near them for the heal, out Thermal would like to have a word with you.

 

Can someone explain to me what's wrong with them?

 

Sorry for the ran, but I could write a book about those types of emps.

 

 

My guess is these are people who have played other MMOs. Ones where a healer is a vital part of the team. In games like that the healer is usually tasked with keeping people alive, especially the tank, something that is only possible if the people at least occasionally listen to them. Since this game is NOT such a game they probably are going crazy trying to keep order so that they don't get blamed for a party wipe. Something that rarely happens.

 

I would give them a break since being a healer/buffer in this game is a bit like being the admiral of the Mongolian Navy. With no coastline in a country that is mostly mountains and desert you pretty much just show up to state functions in your pretty uniform and bow. Fill out paperwork.

 

 

[Razia]

But if they are coming form other games they should at least choose equally often Thermal, Pain or Nature. And I mostly play support myself but I just put myself between melees and ranged and buff on the go.

[quixoteprog]

2 hours ago, Razia said:

But if they are coming form other games they should at least choose equally often Thermal, Pain or Nature. And I mostly play support myself but I just put myself between melees and ranged and buff on the go.

I think it is because Empathy is billed as this awesome support set for people going ALL IN on support. Some people like that. It gives them a sense of purpose to feel like they are filling a much needed roll. And it kind of is a really good healing set. Or, at least really focused on just support. I don't know of another support set that is more support focused. You get no "attack/debuf" oriented power but five buffs, two AoE and three single target. An AoE heal and a single target heal. You also get a second BAD single target heal that I am not counting since I don't think anyone takes it because it damages you and you already have umpteen other things that heal damage.

 

Those other sets you mention may offer more useful powers, in this game, since they have healing, buffing and debuffing. Empathy is all about helping the team, even at your own expense, and so draw people more focused on the team.

 

Unfortunately in this game you really don't have TEAMS because you don't need them. You form groups where you zip through content that half the people could solo and so there is no need to communicate or coordinate anything.

 

Hence you get the bossy empath who is trying to fulfill the role of healer, that is not needed, on a team, that is not needed. It makes them feel frustrated with a group that "won't listen". While the the rest of the group steamrolling through content is wondering why this guy is nattering on about buffs when my health bar has not budged in three missions and I can barely get two licks in on a boss before he is dead.

 

Believe it or not, however, there are times when it can be useful. I run a mind/empathy controller who usually just hold stuff and hands out buffs willy/nilly as they come up. But on rare occasions he will find himself in a group so incompetent that he actually has to pay attention to the health bars of some of his fellow player. Probably because the tank has yet to figure out how to buy enhancements or something. I don't know.

 

 

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, quixoteprog said:

Probably because the tank has yet to figure out how to buy enhancements or something. I don't know.

 

I love those players. They make the game interesting 😄

 

[Rathulfr]

On 1/8/2020 at 1:07 PM, roleki said:

What server is that on?  Unless it's specifically advertised as a speed run, every PuG/TF I've joined on Indom runs +4/8, and if it isn't +4/8, it gets brought up quickly.  I wasn't aware that THAT was in any way abnormal.  

I usually run PUG mission teams at +4x8 for XP, but I run PUG TFs at +0x1 for quickest completion.  Most people running the classic TFs just want to knock them out for the TF Commander badge/accolade. 

 

Post-Numina TFs don't count for TF Commander, so those TFs runs vary, depending on what the group wants to do (anywhere between +0x1 to +4x8).  iTrials also fall into this category: some people just want to knock 'em out quick, and a few want the challenge of tougher fights.

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Razia]

3 hours ago, quixoteprog said:

I think it is because Empathy is billed as this awesome support set for people going ALL IN on support. Some people like that. It gives them a sense of purpose to feel like they are filling a much needed roll. And it kind of is a really good healing set. Or, at least really focused on just support. I don't know of another support set that is more support focused. You get no "attack/debuf" oriented power but five buffs, two AoE and three single target. An AoE heal and a single target heal. You also get a second BAD single target heal that I am not counting since I don't think anyone takes it because it damages you and you already have umpteen other things that heal damage.

 

Those other sets you mention may offer more useful powers, in this game, since they have healing, buffing and debuffing. Empathy is all about helping the team, even at your own expense, and so draw people more focused on the team.

 

Unfortunately in this game you really don't have TEAMS because you don't need them. You form groups where you zip through content that half the people could solo and so there is no need to communicate or coordinate anything.

 

Hence you get the bossy empath who is trying to fulfill the role of healer, that is not needed, on a team, that is not needed. It makes them feel frustrated with a group that "won't listen". While the the rest of the group steamrolling through content is wondering why this guy is nattering on about buffs when my health bar has not budged in three missions and I can barely get two licks in on a boss before he is dead.

 

Believe it or not, however, there are times when it can be useful. I run a mind/empathy controller who usually just hold stuff and hands out buffs willy/nilly as they come up. But on rare occasions he will find himself in a group so incompetent that he actually has to pay attention to the health bars of some of his fellow player. Probably because the tank has yet to figure out how to buy enhancements or something. I don't know.

 

 

I am myself coming from other MMOs, like Everquest and played a fair share of healers myself. Still don't get it, because if they are that good of a healer they should notice when the health bar is not  moving.

[quixoteprog]

1 minute ago, Razia said:

I am myself coming from other MMOs, like Everquest and played a fair share of healers myself. Still don't get it, because if they are that good of a healer they should notice when the health bar is not  moving.

I never said they were GOOD at healing. Skill and desire don't always coincide. They may THINK they are good at it, and that is all that is required for them to start issuing orders.  There are a sizable number of people who just want to fill a niche. This game does not really have those. Most team lack even a Glory Hole for a healer to fill.

[VV]

Goodness, are you guys playing on the same server I am? I play on most of the different shards and I hardly ever run into a team as bad as most of them you all are describing. 

 

I did do one ITF with what much have been an extra-newbie tanker. Rather than gathering mobs, he liked to scrapperlock on a single LT and plink away with his damageless punches. Fortunately, the rest of the group was able to make up for his ignorance and we motored right along. But, you guys have really run into some really epicly bad team combinations.

[Clave Dark 5]

18 hours ago, Razia said:

I had one screaming to the Blaster (who was totally fine) not to attack first.... Can someone explain to me what's wrong with them?

I was getting tired of having to chase after them to prevent them from faceplanting every spawn.  >:(

 

I'm just kidding.  Any player who tells you how you should be playing instead of making suggestions to help you play is just bad.  And if you're an Emp, chasing and babysitting is a big part of your job (I have a 50 Emp in fact).

[Razia]

2 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

I was getting tired of having to chase after them to prevent them from faceplanting every spawn.  😠

 

I'm just kidding.  Any player who tells you how you should be playing instead of making suggestions to help you play is just bad.  And if you're an Emp, chasing and babysitting is a big part of your job (I have a 50 Emp in fact).

I completely understand you, but the Blaster was alread IOed out and did not take damage and just nuked the spawn. It feels like some emps don't have awareness of their environment and what is really happening and adapt to it.

[Clave Dark 5]

6 minutes ago, Razia said:

 

Yeah, that's dumb, why waste breath when you're already steamrolling?

[Tahliah]

I run trolls, and I have found that tanks just aren't tanking like they used to.  In fact, there are a lot of forum posts that berate tanks for . . . tanking.  In the old days, tanks would round up mobs and get them all nicely grouped, trolls would lock them down, and the dps toons would take them out.  Tanks are now being told they are useless and the skills/powers they have are not needed.  This means they aren't tanking that way anymore, so trolls aren't trolling that way anymore.

 

My COH BFF runs a tank, and he can tank the old-school way with the best of them, so when I am on his team, I troll the "right" way.  But frankly, most of the times, tanks aren't tanking.  So trolls aren't trolling.  At least not the way they used to.

 

Slam me with a one star if you wish, but unless you are running a tank who taunts and groups mobs, you can't expect others to meet your old-style requirements.  If you are such a tank, let the team know you are tanking in that manner, and we trolls stand ready to back you up.