It's time to recognize Domination is bad.

[Outrider_01]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

@Outrider_01 I hope you had fun with that. 

 

Simple question for you:

Is it a good design decision that if you are 1 second short of permadom, you are at least half as strong as a Dominator with permadom?

 

I do not give a shit about how much you are trying to cast me as unlikeable and flawed.  Tell me how that is a good design decision.  Tell me how it makes it an appealing AT for casual players who have no idea what they're in for.

Did you have fun thinking up something that you thought was a problem?  Some might not care if they are 30 seconds behind Perma.

 

Next, again the point is.  Its all in the head.  You don't need to build for perma domination.  Is Perma Dom more effective?  That is what we would agree on, so yes.  But it isn't required, you can play how you want.  If someone wants to be less strong, thats up to them....so long as they are enjoying it.  And if they are not, they can always find another way.

 

All I am saying, you think that Perma Domination is required.  It isn't, that is up to the player on how they build (as in, do they want full efficiency or not).  You can build how you want, doesn't mean you are weaker if you do it by choice.  Some players will be stronger, but if you are playing in Perma for the challenge or just love the AT while screwing up your build; its just how you enjoy it.

 

If you think the mechanic can change, try to leave your opinion out of it.  It can be changed, but I feel like you are trying to force your opinion that the difference of "1 second" is the end of the world.  You can build it to have a 30 second gap, but who cares if you are not performing on the same level if you just enjoy a Dominator. 

 

FoTM month awesome isn't required to be strong, its just how you play and enjoy it.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

Annnnnnd my suggestion wouldn't impact you at all, while improving the game for many others so... you wouldn't have any reason to shoot it down.

You mean other than I believe it is fine as is?

[Replacement]

26 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

I am not exactly against the idea, I just think your premise is one sided.  Not everyone sees it the same way, feels the need to build a specific way, and it is your choice on how you build.  Not up to the same performance?  Who cares, its all in the head.

Either this wasn't in pre-edit, or I skipped right past it.  Thank you for tempering your post, here. 

 

About "the data".

The thing is, you don't even need to play CoH to see this.  This reminds me of the "added damage to Favored Enemy" problem in Dungeons & Dragons™:

If your class is balanced around the damage you deal to Favored Enemies, you are underperforming against unfavored enemies.

If you are balanced around how you perform against other enemies, you are overperforming against your favored enemies.

 

I see your latest post that came in while I was typing this.  I do not see a reason to continue our back and forth on your individual points.  Much like Vanden earlier, I feel like you're reacting to specific things I said instead of the overall purpose of this thread.  So....

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

Hello!

This is the Feedback & Suggestions forum!  In the same way that we all know a Scrapper punches harder than a Defender, we can all say it's mathematically true that a Dominator is outperformed by a Perma-Dominator!  My suggestion is that we should make an effort to reduce the gap between these two builds!  

 

In the same way that if Stalkers had a .7 melee multiplier, we would all come to the Feedback & Suggestions forum to talk about how weak they are compared to Scrappers, I have made this thread to bring to light the objective, mathematical difference in power between Dominators and Perma-dominators, compared to the gradual, linear power curve experienced by other ATs in their journey to IO perfection!

 

Thank you for your consideration!

[Replacement]

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

You mean other than I believe it is fine as is?

You have no reason to be opposed to changes that do not affect you but do improve other people's lives.

 

Unless, you know, you're a monster.

[Nanolathe]

5 minutes ago, Replacement said:

You have no reason to be opposed to changes that do not affect you but do improve other people's lives.

 

Unless, you know, you're a monster.

Devils Advocate; Unless he's aware of how other people really enjoy the way things work now. Like, how getting PermaDom after all the time of not having it is a rewarding experience and worth the trouble of slotting and buying the right IOs for it. That sudden jump in power and effectiveness might be an "epiphany" kind of feeling. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Yomo Kimyata]

44 minutes ago, Replacement said:

 

 

EDIT: @Yomo Kimyata I would like to have your vote, but it's not much of a nerf.  My "easiest" suggestion would be an invisible nerf to current high-end builds (it would nerf them during travel time and party downtime and that's really it), while buffing builds that fall short of perma.

 

 

Again, I'm no expert, but what stuck with me is that you would need to rebuild your domination bar each time, whereas now that is unnecessary if you activate domination before it wears off.  I'm totally fine with that, personally.

[ShardWarrior]

6 minutes ago, Replacement said:

You have no reason to be opposed to changes that do not affect you but do improve other people's lives.

 

2 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

Devils Advocate; Unless he's aware of how other people really enjoy the way things work now. Like, how getting PermaDom after all the time of not having it is a rewarding experience and worth the trouble of slotting and buying the right IOs for it.

^ That.  I am also speaking from my own experience and would not pretend to be speaking for others. 

 

6 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Unless, you know, you're a monster.

Disagreeing does not make anyone a "monster". 

[KelvinKole]

Put aside all of the conversation regarding permadom, and Domination is still bad. Assume no global recharge at all, and as designed, with the crash happening after the buff wears off, you have an archetype without access to its core mechanic for over 3 minutes. It's just not good form.

 

Changing that so the crash happens upon activation effectively cuts that downtime by the duration, 90 seconds. Honestly, they could just match the recharge to the duration and then anyone capable of refilling the bar before it wears off can have permadom at level 1. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by KelvinKole

[MTeague]

1 minute ago, KelvinKole said:

Assume no global recharge at all, and as designed, with the crash happening after the buff wears off, you have an archetype without access to it's core mechanic for over 3 minutes. It's just not good form.

Except that the mechanic was literally designed to be BOOST to what you can normally do. 

Downtime in which you do not have a timed Boost, does not mean you're hobbling around on crutches.  It means you're not boosted. 

 

It's like saying Defender damage is nerfed on teams.  No it's not.  It's boosted when they're solo. 

 

Now, admittedly, the HC Devs are not the NCSoft Devs.  They may not view the timed mechanic of domination in the same way.  They are under no obligation to maintain it just because that's how it's always been.  But I mean, even reading the physical manual that came iwth my "City of Villians" game, it's clear that Domination was viewed as a temporary boost to be used for the really hard fights.... not unlike a Invuln tanks "Unstoppable" or a /SR scrapper's "Elude"....  the performance you get from it was viewed, design wise as Extra, not "core". 

[MTeague]

34 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Unless, you know, you're a monster.

Really?

[KelvinKole]

4 minutes ago, MTeague said:

the performance you get from it was viewed, design wise as Extra, not "core". 

Sounds like a bad concept for an inherent power. It works fine as a T9 power choice, but not as an archetype defining attribute. Imagine Scrappers only had a chance to land critical hits for a third of the time you're playing them. Or tanks could only taunt for a third of the time. No Bueno. 

 

Stalkers got a major rework because their inherent was only active from Hide. Making them very weak the rest of the time. This is along the same lines. 

[Indystruck]

This is definitely an interesting idea. Doms need something to change really, but I'm not sure about what the fix is. 

[Haijinx]

I don't know.  Consenting adults and all that.

 

Long as they don't forget the safe word. 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

I agree with the OP on 50% of his premise

 

Permadom is fine as is because other builds also use large amounts of recharge for various purposes like super strength or Titan weapons to augment their abilities to great effect. I do have a problem with other AT inherents but dominators are not one of them.

 

However;

 

I agree that dominators are too damn clicky, i made one and it was fun for a week and then it just became a clickfest. Some people like micromanaging 15 odd powers but i'm perfectly fine with half that. Any more than like 7-8 powers in a rotation and it feels less like a game and more like a chore to me. I am an older gamer so my reflexes are worn down ill admit but when i game i just want a relaxing experience. I can no longer nor do i want to play a game in the same manner as chun li's hyakuretsukyaku. (also if u got that reference, welcome to the old gamers club your pamphlet is in the mail)

[Replacement]

11 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Really?

 

47 minutes ago, Replacement said:

You have no reason to be opposed to changes that do not affect you but do improve other people's lives.

 

Unless, you know, you're a monster.

Quotes in full if you're going to try to sensationalize me, please.

 

It was said in jest for this context but, take that entire quote and drop it into literally any situation in real life, and yes, I will back it 100%.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Replacement

[Vanden]

26 minutes ago, KelvinKole said:

Sounds like a bad concept for an inherent power. It works fine as a T9 power choice, but not as an archetype defining attribute. Imagine Scrappers only had a chance to land critical hits for a third of the time you're playing them. Or tanks could only taunt for a third of the time. No Bueno. 

Scrappers only land critical hits 5-15% of the time, though.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Vanden

[Naraka]

Haven't read all the replies yet but what I can muster from the OP and a few replies afterward is that you want to remove the binary of the AT with regards to build equality.  While I can definitely get behind a thread discussing this, I'm also not in support of an anti-binary approach but I'm also not against some kind of change or consideration or at the very least discussion about this dichotomy of expectations and elitism vs the standard touchy-feely kumbaya "there is no wrong way to build" type of mentality.

 

Personally speaking, I'm weird in that I enjoy contrast while others tend to despise it.  If I were to make an real life analogy on Dominator builds and playstyles in general, it'd be like comparing it to being wealthy.  Most people don't want to be poor!  They don't want their family/kids to be poor either so they share their wealth and provide support for them all the time so they never have to experience the struggles of being poor and that, overall, is a positive approach.  I'm the same in that I don't want to be poor either but I also understand the good aspects of being poor.  I will support my family/kids so they won't ever have to reach such bottoms but I expect them to make their own way, support themselves, understand that to obtain wealth like mine, they need to work for it, understand what it feels like to need to work and earn their way so that they can value the wealth they obtain rather than take it for granted.  On a team with my dominator, I sometimes sit on domination without using it at all.  Am I being mezzed? Is the team getting flattened? Is my endurance low? If all those things are "no", then why would I need domination?  That is to say, I will invariably suffer in circumstances where the team is always in dire need, I'm constantly getting mezzed and drained and don't have perma-dom but then what is the rest of the team doing?

 

I'm indifferent about the suggested change (which is a good thing) as it means it doesn't really change anything except certain specific instances of Domination use.  But then I also feel that Dominator isn't "useless" or "terrible" while not in domination...it's extremely bizarre seeing people say that when all domination does is increase your ability to mez things but has no effect on soft mez like KB/KD, aggro management or destroying the target.  It makes me believe those that feel that way about Dominator outside of domination are taking for granted the benefits of the power and thus have the expectation of "carrying" a team instead of just participating in it.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Naraka

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, KelvinKole said:

Put aside all of the conversation regarding permadom, and Domination is still bad. Assume no global recharge at all, and as designed, with the crash happening after the buff wears off, you have an archetype without access to its core mechanic for 5 minutes. It's just not good form.

Huh?  You're saying it takes 5 min to build the domination bar?  AFAIK, it takes maybe 1 spawn of attacks to get it high enough but with the cooldown being 200sec and the duration being 90, that gives you 110sec to build domination before it's recharged again.  That being said, if the bar was expended upon activation of domination, there would be no build up necessary during that 110sec window and it's closer to being usable once it's recharged.

 

I have no idea where you're getting 5 min from.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, KelvinKole said:

Sounds like a bad concept for an inherent power. It works fine as a T9 power choice, but not as an archetype defining attribute. Imagine Scrappers only had a chance to land critical hits for a third of the time you're playing them. Or tanks could only taunt for a third of the time. No Bueno. 

 

Stalkers got a major rework because their inherent was only active from Hide. Making them very weak the rest of the time. This is along the same lines. 

Technically, Stalker's criticals were obtainable on mezzed foes as well as from hide.  But then we're also having to compare them directly to Scrappers who have more AoE and more HP.

 

The build philosophies of having criticals only a portion of the time is exactly what exists now.  The only difference between Scrapper inherent and Dominator inherent is that one gets an exponential buff from IO bonuses. Imagine if +dmg increased Scrapper crit chance by 5% per 50% damage buff or something.

[Galaxy Brain]

You need about 123% recharge to achieve perma dom. (Rounded up)

 

 

If you're at 122%, Domination recharges in 90.09 seconds and the buff lapses just long enough to crash. Lets say it takes 30 seconds to rebuild the bar to a usable spot, this turns the domination recharge up from 90.09 to 120.09.

 

If you gain 0.22%, or lets just say 1% to be easier, this goes to 89.69 seconds and Domination gets sliced by over 30sec by 1% of boost.

 

No other setup in the game has as drastic a "line in the sand" as that. All other high recharge duration-style powers have a noticeable curve. Lets assume it takes 30 seconds to fill that bar still, what we see is the following:

 

The Red is non-perma dom, the Blue line is what the recharge actually is. Realistically, the red could cover the entirety of that screen until you hit that 123% mark because the 30 seconds to rebuild domination can be incredibly variable based on your circumstances. 

 

Other long duration / long recharge powers follow more towards that blue line where they have an expected power increase as you invest. The same with other IO builds! As you invest more into say, your Scrapper you get gradually better. A proc here, a set bonus there, it adds up and up unless you literally get dumped 329846238904763289746328746 inf and just immediately build them then and there. But in most cases, even that won't be the massive jump in relative strength you get from Domination > Perma Domination. No IO build lets you double the mag of CC powers, grant tons of Mez Protection, and refill your End Bar every 90sec or less, which all then stack upon what you build normally on the powers themselves.

 

Is this good gameplay?

 

It is certainly a playstyle, but the massive shift in power that Permadom gives is hard to ignore. Alongside the benefits that high recharge on control sets already has, you multiply that x Domination Effects x Whatever other bonuses you have to make a crazy strong character that is basically another AT. IMO, it is hard to compare Permadom as a "style" or "FotM" when all Dominator builds can achieve it and it radically changes how they play vs "just better stats".

 

 

@Replacement's proposal:

 

If Domination lasted for 90s still, but upon activation you drained the bar you are essentially eliminating that Red area of the graph above and making it more like a normal "Duration Power", just one you need to maintain with an extra resource.

 

This would make Permadom builds that exist currently essentially the exact same, as if you have enough recharge to make Domination permanent and are actively playing for 30 seconds within Domination, you're still perma.

 

What this opens up is making "close to perma" Domination. Say you're at 60% global recharge boost. Instead of being way off of perma dom, you now only have a (125s - 90s duration) 35 second ghap between dominations assuming you maintain your meter. This opens up many new build options for Dominators while allowing them to use their inherent much more frequently as opposed to "Perma or not"

 

So on the whole, I think it is a good suggestion assuming you can rebuild meter during Domination as it shouldn't effect existing permadom builds at the current Recharge line (they're still perma and have the same actiuon economy as now except maybe less break time during Domination), but even if the bar dips as they travel spawn to spawn they can refill and pop domination again in lightning speed. On the lower end, it makes the curve to get to more dominations actually exist, which is a win win for players.... tho that amount of power is maybe not a win-win globally.

 

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

4 hours ago, Vanden said:

Scrappers only land critical hits 5-15% of the time, though.

I believe the example would be more like:

 

1/3rd of the time, Scrappers gain the "Critical hit!" power, during which time they have a 5-15% chance to crit on attacks, otherwise the chance is 0%.

[Greycat]

9 hours ago, Replacement said:

 

Primary issue: The more optimized your Dominator build, the more homogeneous it is.

If you love your Dominator just the way it is, you're probably building it the same way as every other good Dominator build: Permadom.  How many powers are you using to make sure you have enough LotG mules?  How many set bonuses are you only caring about Global Recharge?  Just how much of your build is really your own? 

 

 

Stepping in here to say I love my Doms the way they are... and as I've stated elsewhere, I don't permadom o rperma-anything. I get a LOTG, typically I sell it. How much of my build is my own? All of it.

 

And yes, I know you don't want to hear it, but a "good" dom build is one the player's enjoying. It's a game.

 

Also, yes, I disagree with Vanden and *do* see the "jekyll and hyde" play as a plus - as one of the pros you listed. I *like* having to decide if I want to use the ability *now* or hold on a bit. It's a bit less strategic in larger teams as you tend to build it faster, but... *shrug.*

 

As far as "powerful?" I'm not in competition with anyone else, so I don't give a dead rat's rear if someone is "more powerful" or not. I'm an asset on a team, I can solo just fine, and handle pretty much any content I care to. I don't run +4x8 - I find that boring and the "you've defeated 100,000 gang members/soldiers/rocks, now go to the next cave and do it again" just... ridiculous. But that's *my* preference.

[tidge]

9 hours ago, Replacement said:

I figure now is the time to post this, now that I'm on my last shred of willingness to fight with people who just "nope" anything that will improve this game.  I made this topic because I truly believe Dominators should be accessible to all player types.

 

If you like current Domination because it requires you to be "this tall to ride" in regards to knowing IOs well enough to Permadom, your opinion is not welcome here.

The goal is to see Domination become accessible without impacting the performance of people who already enjoy their Dominators.

 

Primary issue: The more optimized your Dominator build, the more homogeneous it is.

If you love your Dominator just the way it is, you're probably building it the same way as every other good Dominator build: Permadom.  How many powers are you using to make sure you have enough LotG mules?  How many set bonuses are you only caring about Global Recharge?  Just how much of your build is really your own?

I guess I was expected to get out of the thread almost immediately, except that my "permadom" was built differently than those I later saw in the forums, and despite one very well-meaning user sharing suggestions I didn't go with them. Does that mean my opinion is welcome or not?

 

Ironically, there are a variety of optimized builds (for all classes) including Dominators. I play mine at levels below which permadom is possible (solo) and still have plenty of fun. At higher levels I expect to have a certain level of performance from certain toons when playing solo, and my permadom fills that niche. I also have a tricked out Controller, but that toon offers me a different play style.

 

I understand the suggestion, but I wouldn't like it... primarily because my Dom already feels like I playing "too aggressively" with madcap clicking and circling among targets.... not because I'm trying to trigger +Recharge in attacks but because once the control slips, I'm wide open. Every once in a while I will actually pause from fighting to spawn a crafting table, travel between missions, check the AH, whatever. I like that my domination bar is sitting there ready for me to get back to business. The last thing I want is for Dominators to be more like Brutes (or Controllers).

 

The italicized question at the end of the snippet seems odd. Is a build going to be earn points for uniqueness by delaying a primary power pick? For 3-slotting hasten instead of 2-slotting? For 5-slotting Gravitational Anchor but not Catalyzing ATOs? For 5-slotting Hold sets instead of Basilisk's Gaze? For favoring a Miracle proc over a Numina proc in Health? Is a build not "my own" because I copied a bind from the forums? I will freely admit to chasing Global Recharge on my Dominator, because I wanted Domination to be permanent... just like people chase T4 Destiny powers, or chase 45% positional defenses, of HP caps, or S/L/Fire/Cold resistances. Folks will use their power and IO choices to chase what they want.

[Solarverse]

I can't be the only player who doesn't give a shit about permadom? I play the class as it was designed. A Controller who does damage and I build that way. Dom is just a bonus. People running around with Permadom might as well have just played a Controller IMO. So honestly, I don't give a damn what they do with permadom. I don't play the class and build it around Domination.

 

Preemptive reply:

Maybe I am just "playing the class wrong" by the standards of most, but you know what? I don't give a damn. You play yours the way you want and I'll play mine the way that I want. You might think that I am playing mine wrong, but I'm not the one sacrificing the design of the class by trying to perma out my domination...

[thunderforce]

10 hours ago, Replacement said:

Lots!  There are many ways to fix this and I would support many of them.  Please be aware that I care more about recognition that this is a problem that needs fixed than any of the solutions I list below.

I completely agree that this is a problem that needs to be fixed and, while there might be a better solution out there, the solution you outline is not obviously flawed.

 

(However, I feel that - while this is one of the bigger ones - there are a number of extremely cheesy things one can do with builds, and seriously starting to fix them all would open a giant can of worms. For example, I would agree with the statement upthread that global recharge is basically a bad thing, and favour giving it sharply diminishing returns - but I can't see that being popular, either.)