Please, Oh Please let us choose our first secondary power instead of making it the T1

[Chance Jackson]

Not all T1s are created equal & some kinda suck

[Coyotedancer]

Got stuck taking something like Gust, huh? XD

 

(And yeah. It would be nice sometimes to have a choice...)

 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[Apparition]

They tried it with the Page Four update, and Captain Powerhouse said that it is just too hard coded into the game that it would break it.

[ImpousVileTerror]

I believe this request has cropped up a few times, and while the Devs (to the best of my knowledge) haven't addressed it directly, there were some players and OuroDev folks who poked and prodded at it.  It's apparently not a simple thing, but doable with some serious potential breakage.

It also fundamentally alters a basic component of the gameplay, and that's something which the Homecoming Team has officially stated is not their intent.  Doesn't guarantee it won't happen, of course.  Just . . . I recommend tempering your expectations on this one.

 

And for the record, I'm not against it . . . there are a few Sets that it would actually open up for me (Martial Combat and Savage Assault, in particular).

 

Follow up to @Apparition:
I must have missed that.  Do you have some linkage?

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by ImpousVileTerror
Apparition replied at roughly the same time.

[Vanden]

It’s something I’d really like to see. I really don’t think it would result in any major shift in the game balance if it happened. Worst thing would probably be Stalkers gimping themselves by skipping Hide, but you could solve that by putting a flashing arrow or exclamation point next to Hide on the power selection screens until the player actually chooses it.

[ImpousVileTerror]

Or making Hide Inherent, and then spending all the Dev Time to add one more Power to every Stalker Secondary.

 

 . . . like an AoE Placate.

 

But then Ninjitsu needs something else . . . 

[TraumaTrain]

Maybe it would just be easier to swap some of the less awesome T1 powers with their T2s.

[MTeague]

1 minute ago, TraumaTrain said:

Maybe it would just be easier to swap some of the less awesome T1 powers with their T2s.

If you had universal agreement on which ones were bad, maybe.  I have a few characters where I *like* the T1, and I do not want the T2.

[Apparition]

59 minutes ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

Follow up to @Apparition:
I must have missed that.  Do you have some linkage?

 

Here is one post, there are others.

[Zeraphia]

3 hours ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

Or making Hide Inherent, and then spending all the Dev Time to add one more Power to every Stalker Secondary.

Love this idea 100%. 

 

Although, I'd be lying if I said this thread wasn't rooted in a lot of "power creep."

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

Here is one post, there are others.

The cliffnotes version had to do with changes to the Tanker AT where they wanted to give the option to pick the tier 2 attack to assist in the AT's damage.  Because it caused issues, they tried instead to just swap the position of the tier 1 and tier 2 attacks but I recall that causing some issues and backlash since it actually weakened some sets.

 

Personally speaking: since the powersets aren't trees but pools, having some mandatory options to get to other powers is a balancing mechanism.  Asking to skip out on this mechanism is very similar to asking to pick higher level powers at lower levels or if it were a tree, just skipping to your choice in a tree.  The advantage is, powers you are choosing to get to other powers but not to slot open up more slots for other powers.

[Patti]

So what if tier 1s gave synergies to later stuff?   That way people feel like they made an investment, even though it doesn't,t really change anything?

[ImpousVileTerror]

The, uh, Hide as an Inherent thing was actually . . .  sorta . . .  kinda . . . a joke.   Sorry.  I know that wasn't terribly helpful of me.

It's potentially a lot of balancing work for the Devs to do something of that nature.  I mean, I'm not inherently against it, as I know that it could open up some options for other players.  I just think if they ARE going to go that direction, there are probably other methods with a lower impact.  That -does- seem to be a goal of theirs, even if they can't always obtain it:  Low collateral impact when making changes.

[Chance Jackson]

6 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

Got stuck taking something like Gust, huh? XD

 

(And yeah. It would be nice sometimes to have a choice...)

 

 

Gust blows more than it sucks but that's neither here nor there LOL

[tidge]

My opinion: Setting aside 'moar freedom', it is only a few problematic secondaries that have bothered me with the forced choice of the (current) T1 power. My personal bugbear is the Traps secondary: Caltrops (the T2) is much more useful than Web Grenade (the T1) at all levels of play, especially the lowest levels. No amount of tinkering with the power itself will make me appreciate that power; I would much rather see them swapped.

[Vanden]

Web Grenade in Traps is one of the few instances where I would seriously consider violating the cottage rule.

[Greycat]

18 minutes ago, tidge said:

My opinion: Setting aside 'moar freedom', it is only a few problematic secondaries that have bothered me with the forced choice of the (current) T1 power. My personal bugbear is the Traps secondary: Caltrops (the T2) is much more useful than Web Grenade (the T1) at all levels of play, especially the lowest levels. No amount of tinkering with the power itself will make me appreciate that power; I would much rather see them swapped.

I'd disagree. Especially lower level, locking something in place (instead of just slowing them down - if they'll even slow down - or dropping, say, those little flying clockwork out of the air is more useful than an easily avoided placed patch.

 

Mind you, I take both. But I would never call web grenade particularly skippable.

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

I'd disagree. Especially lower level, locking something in place (instead of just slowing them down - if they'll even slow down - or dropping, say, those little flying clockwork out of the air is more useful than an easily avoided placed patch.

The main difference in utility at low levels (for me) is that you have to make ToHit checks to use the Web Grenade. At high levels, why should I waste attacks on single flying anything that isn't a boss or greater.

[Chance Jackson]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

I'd disagree. Especially lower level, locking something in place (instead of just slowing them down - if they'll even slow down - or dropping, say, those little flying clockwork out of the air is more useful than an easily avoided placed patch.

 

Mind you, I take both. But I would never call web grenade particularly skippable.

I'm also a fan of /Traps Web Grenade but I totally support others wanting to skip it & want them to have the freedom to do so 

[SeraphimKensai]

On 6/27/2020 at 12:36 PM, Coyotedancer said:

Got stuck taking something like Gust, huh? XD

 

(And yeah. It would be nice sometimes to have a choice...)

 

 

Not sure what gust is, assuming you meant Gale. Despite that, Gale is an amazing power, you stick 2 slots in it: Sudden Acceleration KB to KD and a Force Feedback proc and you now have an extremely large cone that recharges at a reasonable rate giving you and your team massive amounts of damage mitigation, while also pricing quite often giving you a massive recharge rate bonus.

 

Both IO's are rather cheap, and turn a mediocre power into an outright overpowered one.

[Vanden]

12 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Both IO's are rather cheap, and turn a mediocre power into an outright overpowered one.

Except you spend 1/4-1/2 of all your time in battle just casting Gale, so not all that overpowered.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Vanden

[Troo]

On 6/27/2020 at 9:34 AM, Chance Jackson said:

Not all T1s are created equal & some kinda suck

It is a game of choices and tradeoffs.

 

There are a couple stinkers but there is the same hurdle in some power pools.

[Chance Jackson]

 

13 hours ago, Troo said:

It is a game of choices and tradeoffs.

 

There are a couple stinkers but there is the same hurdle in some power pools.

 

 

True but you at least have a choice between your first power in every pool except for your secondary powerset

Edited June 29, 2020 by Chance Jackson

[Zepp]

On 6/28/2020 at 1:36 AM, Coyotedancer said:

Got stuck taking something like Gust, huh? XD

 

(And yeah. It would be nice sometimes to have a choice...)

I think you mean Gale, but to be honest, I'd take Gale over 0₂ Boost in my Ill/SS build... Both those powers need some love (Gale needs more damage, O₂ Boost needs to be a PBAoE or TAoE).

[Zepp]

15 hours ago, tidge said:

My opinion: Setting aside 'moar freedom', it is only a few problematic secondaries that have bothered me with the forced choice of the (current) T1 power. My personal bugbear is the Traps secondary: Caltrops (the T2) is much more useful than Web Grenade (the T1) at all levels of play, especially the lowest levels. No amount of tinkering with the power itself will make me appreciate that power; I would much rather see them swapped.

Most Manipulation T¹s are underpowered and fairly useless single target immobilizes. I almost never slot them and would 99% of the time choose the T² over the T¹ for Manipulation sets.