Super Reflexes: Quality of Life Improvements II: Reflexive Suparoo

[Troo]

@Bopper that's my bad.. it was late and I failed to explain my question.

6 hours ago, Bopper said:

Maybe you @modest or @Bopper can explain the weaknesses in the proposed?

There are no perfect power sets. This is by design.

 

Building a godlike power set would be easy. Creating a puzzle with choices that need to be weighed and obstacles to over come as a set progresses is part of the secret sauce.

 

My question was really what are the suggestions weaknesses, can they be over come, are there any hard choices?

 

Because maybe I missed something. I am willing to concede that if I did.

In my opinion, as a whole, the suggestion looks like power creep and the dumbing down of a set that does not currently find itself at the bottom of the pile.

 

Which takes me full circle to: It doesn't really matter if the suggestions are good or bad, this level of impact on a good set won't happen, and really at best this is advocating for a new power set.

[Xanatos]

I think it's important that people poo-poo bad suggestions.

 

CoH has a rich history of devs listening to people on forums when they shouldn't. Haha.

 

If your idea is good, you shouldn't have to worry about feedback IMO.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

My question was really what are the suggestions weaknesses, can they be over come, are there any hard choices?

I think the weaknesses are still mostly the same as before. You are still vulnerable to +To-Hit enemies, you are still vulnerable to RNG, you still get hit hard when a hit lands.

 

The biggest benefit being proposed might simply be the fact you get an extra power pick back, which might not be used within the set. Maybe that pick is used on an Epic attack, maybe a pool power, whatever. But going from seven needed picks (eight desired) to six needed picks would be greatly beneficial.

 

The little bit of Absorb added to PB helps, but isn't a huge game changer. The Reaction time is a good layer of mitigation, but it won't help with Alpha. Psi defense is nice, but for a set that already caps positionals, it does nothing except for the rare cases of positionless psionic attacks. Really, I don't see that great of buffs being suggested. That might be because the numbers I think of are smaller than what others think. Who knows?

[modest]

I created a spreadsheet of all of the suggestions suggested in this thread so that I could visually compare them.

Bopper + Modest design:

Level	Power name	Function
Level 1	Focused Fighting	Toggle: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(Confuse, DEF Debuff)
Level 2	Focused Senses	Toggle: Self +DEF(Ranged), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Perception
Level 4	Evasion	Toggle: Self +DEF(AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff)
Level 10	Practiced Brawler	Click: Self +Res(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Knockback), 10% Absorb
Level 16	Agility	Auto: Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AOE), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 20	Quickness	Auto: Self +Res(-Recharge, -SPD), +Recharge, +SPD
Level 28	Enduring	Auto: Self +Recovery, +DEF(Psionic), Res(DeBuff DEF), Res(DMG, Special)
Level 35	Burst of Speed	Location AoE Moderate DMG (Smash), Self Teleport
Level 38	Elude	Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Recovery, +SPD, +Jump, +Special

 

Sentinel design:

Level	Power name	Function
Level 1	Focused Fighting	Toggle: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(Confuse, DEF Debuff)
Level 2	Focused Senses	Toggle: Self +DEF(Ranged), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Perception
Level 4	Evasion	Toggle: Self +DEF(AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff)
Level 10	Practiced Brawler	Click: Self +Res(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Knockback), 10% Absorb
Level 16	Enduring	Auto: Self +Recovery, +DEF(Psionic), Res(DeBuff DEF), Res(DMG, Special)
Level 20	Agile	Auto: Self +DEF(Ranged, AOE), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 28	Dodge	Auto: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 35	Quickness	Auto: Self +Res(-Recharge, -SPD), +Recharge, +SPD
Level 38	Elude	Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Recovery, +SPD, +Jump, +Special

 

Powers reordered Sentinel:

Level	Power name	Function
Level 1	Focused Fighting	Toggle: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(Confuse, DEF Debuff)
Level 2	Focused Senses	Toggle: Self +DEF(Ranged), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Perception
Level 4	Evasion	Toggle: Self +DEF(AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff)
Level 10	Practiced Brawler	Click: Self +Res(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Knockback), 10% Absorb
Level 16	Agile	Auto: Self +DEF(Ranged, AOE), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 20	Dodge	Auto: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 28	Quickness	Auto: Self +Res(-Recharge, -SPD), +Recharge, +SPD
Level 35	Enduring	Auto: Self +Recovery, +DEF(Psionic), Res(DeBuff DEF), Res(DMG, Special)
Level 38	Elude	Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Recovery, +SPD, +Jump, +Special

 

Powers reordered Sentinel (@Bill Z Bubba) design without Enduring:

Level	Power name	Function
Level 1	Focused Fighting	Toggle: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(Confuse, DEF Debuff)
Level 2	Focused Senses	Toggle: Self +DEF(Ranged), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Perception
Level 4	Evasion	Toggle: Self +DEF(AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff)
Level 10	PB or MB	Click: Self +Res(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Knockback) OR Mez Resist moved to toggles and +10% Absorb
Level 16	Dodge	Auto: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 20	Agile	Auto: Self +DEF(Ranged), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 28	Lucky	Auto: Self +DEF(AoE), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 35	Quickness	Auto: Self +Res(-Recharge, -SPD), +Recharge, +SP
Level 38	Elude	Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Recovery, +SPD, +Jump, +Special

 

Ninjitsu and Shield (@Lockpick) design:

Level	Power name	Function
Level 1	Focused Fighting	Toggle: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(Confuse, DEF Debuff)
Level 2	Focused Senses	Toggle: Self +DEF(Ranged, AOE), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Perception
Level 4	Agile	Auto: Self +DEF(Ranged), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 10	Practiced Brawler	Click: Self +Res(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Knockback), 10% Absorb
Level 16	Dodge	Auto: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 20	Quickness	Auto: Self +Res(-Recharge, -SPD), +Recharge, +SPD
Level 28	Lucky	Auto: Self +DEF(AoE), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 35	Enduring	Auto: Self +Recovery, +DEF(Psionic), Res(DeBuff DEF), Res(DMG, Special)
Level 38	Elude	Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Recovery, +SPD, +Jump, +Special

 

 

Frankly, I think that all of these suggestions are better than the current melee versions of Super Reflexes.

Edited September 7, 2020 by modest
Edited to reflect Bill Z Bubba's corrections.

[modest]

After I posted the tables, I noticed that @Bill Z Bubba updated his earlier posts. I have edited the above list to include the corrected version shared by  @Bill Z Bubba.

Edited September 7, 2020 by modest
Updated with Bill Z Bubba's corrections.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, modest said:

After I posted the tables, I noticed that @Bill Z Bubba updated his earlier posts. Here's the version that he proposed without Enduring:

 

Powers reordered Sentinel (@Bill Z Bubba) design without Enduring:

Level	Power name	Function
Level 1	Focused Fighting	Toggle: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(Confuse, DEF Debuff)
Level 2	Focused Senses	Toggle: Self +DEF(Ranged), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Perception
Level 4	Evasion	Toggle: Self +DEF(AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff)
Level 10	PB or MB	Click: Self +Res(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Knockback) OR Mez Resist moved to toggles and +10% Absorb
Level 16	Dodge	Auto: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 20	Agile	Auto: Self +DEF(Ranged), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 28	Lucky	Auto: Self +DEF(AoE), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 35	Quickness	Auto: Self +Res(-Recharge, -SPD), +Recharge, +SPD
Level 38	Elude	Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Recovery, +SPD, +Jump, +Special

Edited September 7, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bill Z Bubba]

Changed the above to show what I was thinking.

[modest]

17 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Changed the above to show what I was thinking.

I will update my original post to include your corrections.

[Andreah]

On 9/6/2020 at 9:59 AM, Solarverse said:

I'm saying if the set could use anything, it's that. Make the passive have a base resistance, something small like 7.5% Resist to all, and make it slottabe for up to 10% base resist. 

 

The only issue I have with SR is when in an AV fight, sometimes hard hitting bosses too (especially on low levels before IOs) you can be hit once and watch your health go to 10% with one hit. The scaling resist does not kick in until that first hit and damage is complete. So now you are at 10% Health with less than 60% resist. One more hit and you're dead. That scaled resist will not save you.

 

So, instead of buffing the set and swapping abilities around, just make the passive have a small base resist that is slottable and call it a day.

 

Edit:

Actually no. I play as a Stalker, so I only get 2 scaling resist abilities. Forgot about Lucky, which would make it overkill big time.

 

So instead of 7.5% base resist unslotted, go with 3.5% base resist, 5% max possible per passive. That would be 10% max base resist for Stalkers and 15% base resist for everything else.

I would rework the scaling resist formula generally across the game, and have the scaling integrate as the damage was applied. I'm sure either a closed form algebraic solution could be derived, or a fast approximate algorithm be put together.

 

Imagine that your health is at 100%, and then a hit come in that should take you down to 10%, but you have scaling resistances. Instead of applying the scaling resistance from the start point at 100 to the entire block of damage, you integrate it down point by point (or in the limit, as differentials). The first point is not resisted. The second point is resisted a tiny bit. The third point is resisted a little more, and so on, until all the damage is applied -- the 90th percentile of damage would be almost maximally resisted.

[PorkTips]

I hate these SR suggestions. Maybe hate is a strong word. But i like the powers as they are now, I like the toggles being delayed, and i like having the 3 passives that I dont have to slot much and i like the sets that I can put into them, and I'm not interested in losing that.

 

I would flat out delete my 8 or so SR characters if these changes happened. SR is my favorite armor/def set in the game.

 

[Doomguide2005]

And I'd be fine with no change as well, but would be okay with a swap of Lucky and Evasion.  I see no need for any +recovery or +regen/+absorb mechanism.  I say this as someone who built my Claws/SR for survival (vs all out recharge/attack).  I'm fine with killing steadily if a bit slower than Bill Z's pace.  At 2100+ health and regen around 32/sec she's damn tough (and currently missing several newer IOs, notably the Scaling Resist and +Max Health).

[Galaxy Brain]

One thing I'd like is for the scaling res to kick in much sooner.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

One thing I'd like is for the scaling res to kick in much sooner.

I guess for me earlier isn't really the issue as much as that, albeit rare, double tap that takes you out ... before you really can react to the first blow even if the second does have benefit of the scaled resists usually delivered by an AV.  As good as the resists can get when the first blow is 1800 of your 1900 health 75% isn't going to stop the smaller base 600 damage 2nd blow.  But that's just part of being SR not sure how much I really want to do about that.  But it is one of the reasons I built my scrappers health to top out over 2100.  It really helps to survive that sort of ugly double hit.

[Galaxy Brain]

The double tap in theory should be super rare, you just notice when it happens due to the rarity. 

 

I think for everything else though, scaling resists starting way earlier + some sustain (regen?) In the set would be really nice to round it out.

[FundamentalyConfused]

My 2 inf.
 

I’m on board with a reshuffle of the SR toggles, having the AOE toggle lower would greatly improve the faceplant ratio.

 

I’d also make one small change for a +recovery in Practiced Brawler. My thinking is as a practiced brawler you should have had some kind of endurance training and allows you to fight longer before tiring out.  It doesn’t have to be a big number with the click and possible stacking. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by FundamentalyConfused
Forgotten words and I was confused.

[Doomguide2005]

On 12/6/2020 at 2:51 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

The double tap in theory should be super rare, you just notice when it happens due to the rarity. 

 

I think for everything else though, scaling resists starting way earlier + some sustain (regen?) In the set would be really nice to round it out.

Yes very, very rare.  I suspect most of these proposed changes would mostly help the still leveling non-50+, heavily IO'd end game builds.  The last time I recall it happening on my main was a long time ago and I screwed up to boot, got stunned by the first blow, died staggering about from the second blow from Reichsman in the finale of Khan TF.  It was a bit over 1800 damage total, I had 1700+ health at the time and thereafter worked the build to boost max health and regen.  Can't recall the next time she died.

[Aracknight]

I've been playing my MA/SR scrapper since I8.  It's my only character, save for the Tank version I experimented with last year.

 

I think that for what it does, SR is an amazing set, but I think some of this is an attempt to re-invent the wheel.  I wouldn't change what SR does, but I think some tweaks to make it do what it does better or differently could be acceptable.

 

It has a simple setup:  Three toggles for defense and ddr, three passives that give it defense, ddr, and scaling resistance, quickness, mez resistance, and elude.

 

My 2 inf, would be to:

 

1) Generally leave the toggles alone.  Don't reorder them, and add a small Taunt aura to Evasion for Scrappers.   Or do re-order them, and add a small Taunt aura to Evasion for Scrappers.  Sorry Stalkers, this obviously wouldn't be good for you.

 

2) Allow the scaling resistance in the passives to be enhancable, adjust the formula, and allow resistance enhancements and sets to be slotted in them.   I believe that adding some more resistance could counter the perceived "need" for healing.  I'm not talking about hitting the Resistance Cap when standing there at full hit points, but I think there's some wiggle room available to balance it properly.  This would also give those of us who just use Tough as a mule for resistance uniques (and never turn it on) a reason to not take it, and get two powers back.

 

3) Add +jumpspeed to Quickness, just to make that quicker too, and allow it to accept universal travel sets (but not run/jump/fly sets because of the stealth  IO being "permanent" in a passive)

 

4) The Practiced Brawler/Master Brawler debate.  I see both sides, I really do.  The PB click can be used as a "break free" and can be stacked, which is awesome.  The MB version "builds them into the" toggles, which means I can put an attack on auto fire, or another power instead, which is awesome.  I say split the difference.  Make Practiced Brawler give a passive Mez resistance of 4 into the toggles like MB does, and add 6-8 when clicked.  This lets us have a small amount all the time, a larger amount on demand, and still allows stacking. 

 

5) Elude.  This power has become skippable in the age of IO's, and I think that's sad.  The last time I used it was when I was getting the ski badges in Pocket D, and I think that since soft-capping is so easy, that an interesting idea foe Elude is to look at what else it does, which is to boost recovery, run speed and jump height.    Why not take out the Defense, since it's not really needed and turn it into a toggle (Not A Click) travel power, like Athletic Run, that you can slot?  I think with the new stance selection animations this could be pretty awesome.

 

 

 

 

[FundamentalyConfused]

1 hour ago, Aracknight said:

5) Elude.  This power has become skippable in the age of IO's, and I think that's sad.  The last time I used it was when I was getting the ski badges in Pocket D, and I think that since soft-capping is so easy, that an interesting idea foe Elude is to look at what else it does, which is to boost recovery, run speed and jump height.    Why not take out the Defense, since it's not really needed and turn it into a toggle (Not A Click) travel power, like Athletic Run, that you can slot?  I think with the new stance selection animations this could be pretty awesome.

 

 

 

 

I agree that Elude is skippable since IO’s made softcapping easy. 
 

I like your idea for Elude but think that a toggle isn’t warranted. 
 

Earlier today I was mulling this over and thought that since we have this power creep going since Incarnates were introduced that maybe these type of T9’s need looking at. Here’s a crazy idea, it applies to any T9 godmode, what if we bump up the active time one more minute? If we don’t really want to change how these godmodes work, for the most part, the simplest and easiest thing to do is up the up time. How else can we change the skippable godmodes into nonskippable?

[aethereal]

The problem with changing the crashing godmodes into better powers -- of whatever form -- is that do armor sets really need buffs?  Do we really need scrappers and stalkers to be yet more unkillable?  The armor set classes, except sents and maybe brutes, are in great shape, even with bad and eminently skippable T9s.

[Biff Pow]

How about a little bit of Smash/Lethal Resistance in Practiced Brawler? A practiced brawler would naturally be able to take a punch.

 

Or do I just want someplace to slot the +Def IOs? Maybe.

[Dragon Crush]

On 12/6/2020 at 2:51 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

The double tap in theory should be super rare, you just notice when it happens due to the rarity. 

 

I think for everything else though, scaling resists starting way earlier + some sustain (regen?) In the set would be really nice to round it out.

I propose letting SR get scaling regen in exchange for Regeneration getting scaling resists.

[Aracknight]

Quote

 

I think the point made that moving away from the t-9 armor power being a "more unkillable" power is a good one.  Power creep in the form of IO's and Incarnate powers has made far too many powers flat out skippable, and I think that's a shame.  But at the same time, it's hard to find a consensus on how to reinvent said wheel.  We skip travel powers because of prestige ones being available.  We skip t-9s because we don't need them (Elude) or they don't give the best DPS attack chain (Eagle's Claw).  We take powers we never actually use for IO mules or to get the power we need for IO mules (Boxing, Tough, and Maneuvers for me).  It's clever, and a wonderful exercise in minmaxing and performance building but at the same time it feels me with a sense of...wasteful sorrow somehow. 

 

I get that this last bit is obviously the start of a  much larger conversation, It was just sort of bothering me this afternoon. 

 

 

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Aracknight said:

I think the point made that moving away from the t-9 armor power being a "more unkillable" power is a good one.  Power creep in the form of IO's and Incarnate powers has made far too many powers flat out skippable, and I think that's a shame.  But at the same time, it's hard to find a consensus on how to reinvent said wheel.  We skip travel powers because of prestige ones being available.  We skip t-9s because we don't need them (Elude) or they don't give the best DPS attack chain (Eagle's Claw).  We take powers we never actually use for IO mules or to get the power we need for IO mules (Boxing, Tough, and Maneuvers for me).  It's clever, and a wonderful exercise in minmaxing and performance building but at the same time it feels me with a sense of...wasteful sorrow somehow. 

 

I get that this last bit is obviously the start of a  much larger conversation, It was just sort of bothering me this afternoon. 

 

 

Unfortunately some of those powers are absolutely useless for anything but mule slotting them or just getting them to get to the power you actually want. I'm not sure what can be done about that either.

[Grindingsucks]

3 hours ago, Aracknight said:

I think the point made that moving away from the t-9 armor power being a "more unkillable" power is a good one.  Power creep in the form of IO's and Incarnate powers has made far too many powers flat out skippable, and I think that's a shame.  But at the same time, it's hard to find a consensus on how to reinvent said wheel.  We skip travel powers because of prestige ones being available.  We skip t-9s because we don't need them (Elude) or they don't give the best DPS attack chain (Eagle's Claw).  We take powers we never actually use for IO mules or to get the power we need for IO mules (Boxing, Tough, and Maneuvers for me).  It's clever, and a wonderful exercise in minmaxing and performance building but at the same time it feels me with a sense of...wasteful sorrow somehow. 

 

I get that this last bit is obviously the start of a  much larger conversation, It was just sort of bothering me this afternoon. 

 

 

Maybe, but I feel you hard on this one, brother.  Not having played the game during live, I often wonder what it felt like prior to the advent of IO sets and incarnate abilities.  I love Homecoming and have a great time here, but it would be interesting try a server that didn't use IO's and incarnates.

 

Now, as to the OP, I do have a lvl 50 StJ/SR scrapper.  I really had to push myself to keep going with it prior to my mid-20s, but once I started getting my defenses properly boosted, I really began to enjoy SR.  I tend to rely on resist-based sets, so playing this was quite a new experience for me.  The set feels more risky to me, and therefore more exciting to play, than resist based sets.  With strong defenses, you almost never get hit at all.  But on those rare occasions when you do take a hit (or, even worse, two or three hits in succession) your health will plummet dangerously, due to anemic resists.

 

I really sort of enjoy this, oddly.  It DOES simulate the feeling of playing a hero that relies on dodging out of the way, as opposed to just soaking hits, and it lets me feel powerful and heroic, but not invincible.  I'm acutely aware of the fact that I'm just one or two unlucky RNG events away from taking a dive.  I find I sort of like that and it makes me cautious enough to try to always keep two or three insps. in reserve for such occasions.