Defender Defense

[Diantane]

Should a Defender train "Tough and Weave"? Just wondering if it would do any good or will outside DPS kill me anyway.

[Bill Z Bubba]

My vote is yes. Weave stacks with any defense given to you by your primary. It's also an excellent spot for IOs, some unique, some not, like Luck of the Gambler + Recharge, or Reactive Defense Scaling Resists or Shield Wall's +Resistance.

 

Same is true for Tough. Unbreakable Guard +MaxHP, Gladiator's Armor +Def, Steadfast +Def as well as others.

 

To be honest, Out of 75+ characters, I don't have a single one that doesn't end up with the fighting pool.

[Coyotedancer]

Some people love the Fighting pool, and as Bill mentioned it definitely has its uses... But I typically *don't* use it with my support types. I just don't find it necessary and there are typically other power picks I'd rather have. 

[Greycat]

10 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

To be honest, Out of 75+ characters, I don't have a single one that doesn't end up with the fighting pool.

Flip side, outside of some grabbing an attack or two, I can only think of one that does have it for tough and/or weave in my collection. I know the "meta" is to have them and/or hasten, but I don't care (or, for that matter, take hasten most of the time.)

[Bill Z Bubba]

I can definitely see not bothering with it IF I have other powers that can take all of those uniques.

[MTeague]

26 minutes ago, Diantane said:

Should a Defender train "Tough and Weave"? Just wondering if it would do any good or will outside DPS kill me anyway.

I don't think a single one of my 40 characters uses Weave at all.  Not even the /SR scrapper. (though she does use Tough for the 3% uniques)

 

It's not BAD mind you, I'm just... contrary... and when I see people say how certain powers are mandatory for all builds, etc, I make characters without those powers. 

Only about 15 of my 40 characters use Hasten, too.

 

I guess where I'm going with that, is Weave is not necessary.  It can be helpful sure.  But on a team, your Defender shouldn't be the focus of enemy attacks, and, soloing, it's quite possible to build up good defenses without it.  In any case, I prefer Manuevers over Weave to spread some love to the whole team.  Eight players with Weave all have 5-7% defense.  Eight players with Manuvers hanging out together give each other 24-30% defense.

Edited September 7, 2020 by MTeague

[Luminara]

If you have sufficient buffs, debuffs and/or controls in your primary and secondary, you don't need either.  A Radiation Emission defender has access to a massive ToHit debuff, for example.  Defenders who use Dark Blast powers also debuff ToHit.  Force Field and Traps defenders already have access to impressive +Defense powers which apply their effects to them.  Stacked Holds, Stuns and Sleeps also provide significant damage mitigation, thereby reducing any reliance on Resistance or Defense.  Enemies who can't land a hit (-ToHit), hit like kittens if they do (-Damage), or simply can't do anything (Hold/Stun/Sleep) don't warrant taking Tough or Weave.

 

If your combination of primary and secondary are lacking in mitigation, and you primarily play solo, yes, both can be beneficial.  A defender can achieve just short of 15% Defense (All) with Tough (slotted with both unique +3% Defense (All) IOs and maximal Defense slotting in Weave.  Coupled with other buffs, debuffs and/or controls, this can shift weak mitigation to strong, safe play.

 

If your character concept supports it, yes.  The game is extremely forgiving of power selection and slotting, there are always ways to build around "holes" in a character's efficiency, so sticking to concept should always be first priority.  I played a defender with no +Defense, no +Resistance, no -ToHit and only one single-target control all the way to 50, relying only on -Damage and a targeted AoE heal for mitigation.  I tanked AVs with that character.  I attended Hamidon raids.  I even soloed a Giant Monster to 50% health (i didn't die, i gave up and left because it took 20 minutes to get that far and i didn't relish the idea of finishing the job).  I did all of that before IOs, before set bonuses, and after a couple of massive nerfs (GDN and ED).  There really is no such thing as "incapable" or "too inefficient to play" in this game, and no reason not to let character concept be the overriding factor in decisions.

[Lines]

I usually take them, but mainly because I have no idea what else I'd do with the power slots.

[KC4800]

I hate, hate, hate the fighting Pool. Only took it on one Brute. None of my tanks have it. None of my other characters have it. 

[Doomguide2005]

I find it build dependent ... even on the same character.  One thing I can say is if I have one I almost certainly have the other in the build.  It's rare to have just one of the two in a build.

 

But my defenders and controllers almost always focus on recharge first and foremost in their primary builds.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I’m mixed.  If I don’t have a res damage power otherwise, I’ll usually take kick and tough for the res damage uniques.  Sometimes I’ll take tough anyway.

 

I take weave if the lotg -recharge will move me closer to perma hasten, or if a few points of defense will soft cap me.

 

My defenders always take Leadership first though.

[roleki]

Way I figure it, if a support character is already packing mitigation, the Fighting pool is a bit of gravy to throw on after Hasten, Maneuvers and Tactics.  On support characters that lack consistent mitigation, Fighting moves closer to a necessity.  For instance, I could not and did not need to fit Fighting into my Rad/Rad Defender build, but I couldn't take my EA/Sonic Defender out of the garage without it.  It would be easier to lean into Fighting on support characters if it didn't have the dead weight of Kick/Boxing, but, it SHOULD be a little painful to get access to extra Def & Resists.  

[Ironblade]

7 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

My vote is yes. Weave stacks with any defense given to you by your primary.

My vote is no *UNLESS* you have something it can stack with.  Otherwise, it's just not worth it.

So, a dark defender with Maneuvers and Combat Jumping has significant defense right there.  Add Weave.  Get some IO's.  Etc.

 

Also, plan ahead.  With some of the ancillary or patron pools, you can get SERIOUS resistance or defense.  My empathy defender has just under 50% S/L resist.

 

Personally, I think every one of my tanks and brutes has the fighting pool.  Hardly any of my other characters have it.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Ironblade

[Twisted Toon]

1 hour ago, Ironblade said:

My vote is no *UNLESS* you have something it can stack with.  Otherwise, it's just not worth it.

So, a dark defender with Maneuvers and Combat Jumping has significant defense right there.  Add Weave.  Get some IO's.  Etc.

 

Also, plan ahead.  With some of the ancillary or patron pools, you can get SERIOUS resistance or defense.  My empathy defender has just under 50% S/L resist.

 

Personally, I think every one of my tanks and brutes has the fighting pool.  Hardly any of my other characters have it.

My Grav/Time Controller has around 55% S/L Resist without the use of the fighting pool.

I can't think of a single character I have that has the fighting pool.

And only 1 that has Hasten.

And a couple with Tactics or Maneuvers.

[LiquidBandage]

10 hours ago, Diantane said:

Should a Defender train "Tough and Weave"?

Only if your character concept needs it.

If the people you typically play with run Maneuvers or Maneuvers-like powers, consider it, yes.

Just for the hell of it? No, why feed another end sucking toggle or two that will have minimal impact.

If your playstyle has you soloing a lot, pulling frequently or squatting in melee range, consider it.

 

There are many Defender primaries & secondaries that makes this kind of vague question only really answerable by the person that asks the question.

[wolfshadow31]

My dark/dark/dark defender did. Even with my to hit debuffs, more defence never hurts. And I will never say no to more S/L resistance. With all my controls, decent base  defence and resistances etc I often tank entire spawns just because I have very high survivability doing so. It’s not so noticeable at 0x8, but the extra defence and resistance means a lot more to me when the enemies  are +4s. 

[MTeague]

19 hours ago, KC4800 said:

I hate, hate, hate the fighting Pool. Only took it on one Brute. None of my tanks have it. None of my other characters have it. 

I do like Kick/Boxing/Crosspunch. 

If you take all three, Crosspunch becoms surprisingly strong and it's a nice additional melee AoE attack with a very reasonable cooldown.

 

Some Tanks (SS immediately leaps to mind...) gets their AE very late in the game. Crosspunch can make up a lot of difference.

And on my Mind/Kin controller, Fulcrum Shift plus Crosspunch with Containment on held mobs?  Yes please. 

 

I haven't needed Weave thus far though.

[Ironblade]

10 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I haven't needed Weave thus far though.

Weave has its place.  Invuln is a 'mixed' or 'layered' set in that it has both resistance and defense but not enough of either for it to work alone.

Adding Tough and Weave significantly improves both and makes a big difference.

[Without_Pause]

On 9/7/2020 at 3:21 PM, MTeague said:

I prefer Manuevers over Weave to spread some love to the whole team.

Some of us take both. 🙂 Note, Tough is the lesser of the two as with defenders having lower HP resistance isn't as useful, but it can use an IO with boosts def which is what you want. 

[MTeague]

6 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Some of us take both. 🙂 

Yea, I can see that. I always have other Shiny Toys I want.  And *so far*, my Defenders/Corruptors have had other defense or back-door-defense options.

 

Storm/Sonic:  Steamy Mist, Manuevers, Hurricane.... he takes VERY few hits soloing, enough for Power Transfer/Panacea/Entropic Chaos/ATO's to heal him back up.

Beam/Force Field:  Big Bubble. 'Nuff said  🙂

Dark Blast/Dark Miasma:   -To Hit out the Wazoo = Effective +Defense

Time/Energy Blast:   Hate a rougher go at lower leves, but Foresight fixes everything.

 

However, the Water/Sonic Corr and the Empathy/Psychic Blast Def are still low levels.  Maybe by the time they get up there I'll be singing the praises of Weave.  🙂

 

[KC4800]

3 hours ago, MTeague said:

I do like Kick/Boxing/Crosspunch. 

If you take all three, Crosspunch becoms surprisingly strong and it's a nice additional melee AoE attack with a very reasonable cooldown.

 

Some Tanks (SS immediately leaps to mind...) gets their AE very late in the game. Crosspunch can make up a lot of difference.

And on my Mind/Kin controller, Fulcrum Shift plus Crosspunch with Containment on held mobs?  Yes please. 

 

I haven't needed Weave thus far though.

Yeah, my Brute needed some AoE. He's a non farmer brute. Energy Melee/Invul. I took Kick, Tough, Weave, and Crosspunch. CP is definitely in my Attack Chain. Kick only if I have -Rech on me. 

But I can never see doing this with a defender. I'd be more apt to just go AirSup.

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by KC4800

[Marshal_General]

I just hate the idea that every build has to has certain powers from the pools. It drives the anarchist in me nuts.

[Hew]

Tough is pretty significant +s/l resist, and weave isnt too bad on defense. If nothing else, I would take both to slot with procs as mentioned elsewhere, or use it to shore up defenses.

 

An example is tough and weave on an elec affin fender, that can get veeeeery significant resists (cap s/l/en with little effort), using weave to throw defense at the problem as a bonus.

 

It really is just situational, but the power of the big procs is pretty crazy. Maybe you take weave just for the luck of the gambler +rech proc for example. 

[Doomguide2005]

6 hours ago, MTeague said:

Yea, I can see that. I always have other Shiny Toys I want.  And *so far*, my Defenders/Corruptors have had other defense or back-door-defense options.

 

Storm/Sonic:  Steamy Mist, Manuevers, Hurricane.... he takes VERY few hits soloing, enough for Power Transfer/Panacea/Entropic Chaos/ATO's to heal him back up.

Beam/Force Field:  Big Bubble. 'Nuff said  🙂

Dark Blast/Dark Miasma:   -To Hit out the Wazoo = Effective +Defense

Time/Energy Blast:   Hate a rougher go at lower leves, but Foresight fixes everything.

 

However, the Water/Sonic Corr and the Empathy/Psychic Blast Def are still low levels.  Maybe by the time they get up there I'll be singing the praises of Weave.  🙂

 

On the Empathy/Psy Blast ... recharge and more recharge on a team build.  The team plus inspires and high recharge on Regeneration Aura will go a long way on keeping you upright.  Smaller team (3 and under) then I'd start thinking defense and resistance if aiming at harder/larger mobs as a norm.  

[Twisted Toon]

4 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

I just hate the idea that every build has to has certain powers from the pools. It drives the anarchist in me nuts.

Except, not every build has to have certain powers from the pools.

I would say that many players don't get what the Meta-players claim are mandatory powers.

I certainly don't. Probably the rebel in me.

My understanding is, if you don't have Hasten, Tactics, Maneuvers, Tough and Weave, you've gimped yourself.

I don't see it, really.

the vast majority of my characters don't have any of those powers, and they do quite well.

Agent Legacy (Grav/Time Controller) has been known to hold an AV a time or two. (8 holds/chance of holds)

She doesn't have any of the powers deemed necessary.

She also solos content at +0/x8.

 

Can she take on a Rikti Pylon solo?

Probably not.

But, I'm not concerned about being able to take on a Rikti Pylon solo.