Ever feel useless (Support woes)

[ShardWarrior]

In a word, no.  I would also add that I would never wish for the game to be neutered to the point where support ATs - or any AT for that matter - would be required for team content. 

[Wavicle]

On 9/28/2020 at 12:56 PM, Omega-202 said:

I think the part that kills it is the stupid long animation times on so many of the useful support powers in the current metagame.  Why do Sleet and Freezing Rain need a 2.03 s animation?  Why does Tar Patch need a 3.1 s animation? Fulcrum Shift = 2s, Poison Trap (Traps) = 2.77s, Radiation Infection = 3s, Lingering Rad and Enervating Field = 1.5s, Twilight Grasp = 2.37s, Howling Twilight and Darkest Night = 3.17s.  Some of the best support powers for the current metagame take forever to actually use and by the time they're done animating, two Judgements, a Blaster Nuke and a Lightning Rod have gone off and decimated the spawn, so who cares about the support?

Seems like virtually every problem in the game comes down to "the original devs couldn't math".

[Omega-202]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Seems like virtually every problem in the game comes down to "the original devs couldn't math".

That is incredibly true.  If ever there was a CoH2, step 1 would be to take animation times into consideration much more heavily, as compared to the "no consideration at all" that the original devs had.  

 

Imagine how much of a difference it would make if you gave Sonic Blast's attacks 0.8-1.5 s animations instead of the 2-3 seconds they all have.  Or made all of the 3s support power animations just 1s.  Or upped nuke animations to 4s.  So many logical things they could have done, but the fact that we got what we got shows they really had no idea what they were doing with animation times at the start, and never really learned by game close (see Energy Transfer's complete neutering).  

[Hexquisite]

I’d also like to point out, and maybe this has been mentioned already, but a lot of support is, effectively, invisible. You can see tanks tank, see the melee melee, the blasters blast, the controllers control, etc. Almost all those things are visible when they’re  happening. 
 

But not every buff or debuff comes with a noticeable effect, beyond the animations. Melee in the thick of combat, especially if in the grip of scrapperlock or furylock, don’t always pay attention to their own health, and so don’t always notice when they were saved from a close, intimate moment with the floor by a well-timed heal. 
 

Basically, in my experience both as support and teaming with support, when support is doing their job well, and things are rolling along at a smooth clip, it won’t  seem like they’re doing anything at all. 

[Carnifax]

20 minutes ago, Hexquisite said:

I’d also like to point out, and maybe this has been mentioned already, but a lot of support is, effectively, invisible. You can see tanks tank, see the melee melee, the blasters blast, the controllers control, etc. Almost all those things are visible when they’re  happening. 
 

But not every buff or debuff comes with a noticeable effect, beyond the animations. Melee in the thick of combat, especially if in the grip of scrapperlock or furylock, don’t always pay attention to their own health, and so don’t always notice when they were saved from a close, intimate moment with the floor by a well-timed heal. 
 

Basically, in my experience both as support and teaming with support, when support is doing their job well, and things are rolling along at a smooth clip, it won’t  seem like they’re doing anything at all. 

This is how I feel on my Time/Sonic defender. It's hard to see but I know the team has lots of extra defense, lots of recharge and anything they hit is taking lots more damage thanks to my -resist stacking. And I don't feel bad about being a bit blasty because I know I don't need to nursemaid. 

 

 

[Omega-202]

26 minutes ago, Hexquisite said:

I’d also like to point out, and maybe this has been mentioned already, but a lot of support is, effectively, invisible. You can see tanks tank, see the melee melee, the blasters blast, the controllers control, etc. Almost all those things are visible when they’re  happening. 
 

But not every buff or debuff comes with a noticeable effect, beyond the animations. Melee in the thick of combat, especially if in the grip of scrapperlock or furylock, don’t always pay attention to their own health, and so don’t always notice when they were saved from a close, intimate moment with the floor by a well-timed heal. 
 

Basically, in my experience both as support and teaming with support, when support is doing their job well, and things are rolling along at a smooth clip, it won’t  seem like they’re doing anything at all. 

That's a nice thought, but that notion falls apart when those Scrappers and Tanks and Brutes are built to handle the content being played solo.  

 

I know this from both sides of the equation.  If I know that I can stand face to face with Romulus SOLO, then the support isn't invisible, its negligible.  If I'm accidentally face tanking Marauder solo because I ran off and didn't realize the team split off, then the support really isn't doing anything to help. 

 

EDIT: Actual anecdote from a recent lvl 54 LRSF.  In the final battle, the team lost track of Synapse.  It took me about a minute to notice he was just wailing on my Stalker just out of frame and I didn't even notice.  We had no support ATs on the run.  He just couldn't dent me through my natural defenses and the active Destinies.  AGAIN, we had no support.  We finished it in less than 35 mins.  

 

At the same time, I've played support ATs through content where I stopped myself from using any survival increasing abilities (no heals, no to hit debuffs, hovering out of range for auras) and saw that it really didn't matter, the armor classes were not budging, and the squishies knew how to stay out of the fire.  I was just another DPS with some buffs that weren't all that consequential.  

 

I really, truly understand the sentiment from a lot of people in this thread trying to rationalize the effect of supports (how could you not try and rationalize it?  who wants to accept the idea that they're useless?) but its not reflected in the reality of the current endgame.  It's like the stages of grief.  A lot of people are in the denial or bargaining stages.  

Edited September 29, 2020 by Omega-202

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

That's also a good point... The dynamics of playing on a small team, or duo/trio, are a different animal than being in the middle of an eight-player wrecking ball. 

I duoed a Dual Pistols/Martial Combat blaster with a Thermal/Sonic defender.  My blaster has a nice build (Sets are my love language) and plays pretty well on her own, but in the duo she is playing in God mode.  It doesn't matter if damage gets through the +def bonuses, because it runs into a bunch of resistance AND two heals.  Tough opponents have been kittenified by Heat Exhaustion, anyway.   Mez?  Nah, none of that here.  Not to mention the delicious stacking of Forge, Melt Armour and the -res attacks.

 

Defenders are awesome.

[Doomrider]

On 9/27/2020 at 10:17 AM, LordTenma said:

I play mainly support type characters, ya know Defenders, Controllers. But when one hits incarnate and there's non sup-port classes, popping rezzes, barriers, heals and pretty much decimating everything before I can get hold one off....makes a bloke feel useless. Like, "Why am I even here"

Anyone else ever feel like that?

With how easy it is for people to have fleshed out high end IO builds on HC and incarnates coming quite easily, much of the game no long requires a full team.
If you can find 2 or 3 regular people to play with it, it can really breathe new life into playing support and you can go on to do some impressive feats with a less than full team.

I've done a 3 man Lambda (corr, sentinel, controller)
4 man Seed of Hamidon (defender, 2 peacebringers and a controller). Used the same team to take down a Rikti drop ship just to see if we could.
Even a 4 man Dilemma Diabolique (Widow, Scrapper, Corr, Controller)

Doing these sorts of challenges on a small team definitely made the support feel impactful. Doing any content with less though does, it's just harder to pull off with pugs. 
It's not a perfect fix, but it's a suggestion. Just something to try.
 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Doomrider

[Saikochoro]

From my experience I never feel useless as a support. I am either buffing up my allies damage or debuffing hard enemies. On trash mobs it doesn’t make too much difference, but neither does another dps honestly. They die quick either way. 
 

However, on harder targets like AVs, EBs, and even some bosses support buffs/debuffs are very helpful.  This is doubly so on the journey from 1-50 including PI radios at 54 and stuff like Maria Jenkins arc.

 

I never see cheers when another blaster or scrapper joins the team. However, if a kinetics joins the team they are basically worshipped.  Nothing else gets cheered as much as a kinetics support. 
 

AV fights are also an easy fight to see the benefits of heavy buffs/debuffs provided by the support. All of a sudden your damage is higher and the AV is dying a lot faster. 
 

Ive never felt useless as a support nor have I ever been part of a team where I though the support was useless. Honestly, in my experience, support are the most appreciated of all archetypes that join a team. Especially if it is a kinetics. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 9/27/2020 at 8:03 PM, Haijinx said:

The one you must carry. 

In Soviet Force, The One carries you!

[Hew]

On 9/27/2020 at 7:18 PM, Yomo Kimyata said:

I see you for what you really are.

 

You are a force multiplier.

 

Many will not see that, but you and I know it.

 

Thank you!

Here is my support char:

 

 

For reference... that is:

 

tact man: 8.27% def

tact assault: 15% damages

tact leadership: 14% tohit

mindlink: 24.54% def

man: 6.1% def (that is pretty fricking lame)

assault: 15% moar damages

 

38.91% def to all, just putzing around, to everyone in a huge radius.

+30% damagez cause MOAR DAMAGEZ

15% tohit

 

overlap in rech/recov/regen/defense from support radial embodiment, ageless core ephiphany, agility radial paragon.

 

Somewhere, some how, I am sure someone will get killed. It sure wont be me though.

 

edit: I have a 2 attack attack chain: eviscerate, spin. Rinse, repeat. HAH!

 

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Hew

[Six-Six]

Here's another way of looking at things.

The team doesn't need a tank. (all archer team, all spider team, etc.)
The team doesn't need dps. (tanker tuesdays, thursdays, whateverdays)
The team doesn't NEED anything, but is happy to have you whatever AT or role you play. the team is greater than the sum of its parts.

[ShardWarrior]

@Yomo Kimyata makes an excellent point with regard to force multipliers.  Try an AV fight against something like Reichsman or a GM with and without debuffers on the team.  You will notice quite a difference. 

[srmalloy]

I can second this observation; back on Live, my TA/Arch Defender never did a lot of damage in fights, but I could see fairly clearly how much faster an AV or EB (and their retinue) would go down when I started throwing debuffs into the melee. There's only so far you can push outgoing damage, but nerfing incoming mitigation has more potential for boosting net damage.

[DougGraves]

13 hours ago, Six Six said:

Here's another way of looking at things.

The team doesn't need a tank. (all archer team, all spider team, etc.)
The team doesn't need dps. (tanker tuesdays, thursdays, whateverdays)
The team doesn't NEED anything, but is happy to have you whatever AT or role you play. the team is greater than the sum of its parts.

 

Yes, but that is looking at something else entirely.

 

"Does not need a specific AT" is about the need for a specific AT.

 

"My character may as well not even be there" is about whether or not your character is actually useful.

 

We do not want a specific AT to be needed.  We do want our characters to actually matter.  If your character being played or being afk has no impact on how the team does, that is a problem.

Edited September 30, 2020 by DougGraves

[Six-Six]

I think the game has evolved from the standard MMORPG (tank/dps/healer) to something better. While each AT can trace its roots from the so-called trinity, each of them can be built according to how you want to play. The epic and patron pools allow for that, as well as certain IO sets. Now that doesn't mean you should turn your Blaster into a full on healer... well, you can, but you won't be as effective at it... but you can. whatever floats your goat. Hence a specific AT is not needed since the lines that separate the ATs have been blurred.

"Does not need a specific AT" is NOT about the need for a specific AT. It's exactly that. The team doesn't need [insert specific AT here]. Don't tell me you've never run a TF/SF or mission with just Blasters, Dominators, and MMs. Was there a tank? no. Did someone else take the place of a tank? could be, but also doesn't matter. Or what about a Scrapper+Brute+Tank team? No heals but your own, no holds, debuff, nor immobilise but your own. or none at all. And yet it still works. 

Say you joined a TF with either a complete set of the notable ATs or a rag-tag band of whatevers, and you go AFK for 5 mins. Then when you come back you find that they completed the mission without your help. It does not equate to your character not making a difference. While it's true that you will be missed as greatly as the void left by your hand when you pull it out of the water, your presence there made a difference. Just because the team didn't crumble when you died (or went afk) does not belittle your worth or your utility. Rather it illustrates what great teammates you had/have.

I reiterate that the team is greater than the sum of its parts. Should one part fail momentarily, the rest adjust until he/she recuperates. Should one part be missing, the team compensates one way or another. If you want your character to matter, then play as a team not as a specific AT or role. Your type of powers are inconsequential; what is important is that you have enough confidence in yourself, your toon, your play style to know that you do matter. If you are sincerely pulling your weight during a run, then you are making a difference and you are important to the team effort. So for every successful team mission you've accomplished, you can chalk it up as making a difference.

 

_____

I posted this last night... and I just had another thought when I woke up this morning:
Go run an TF (I suggest the Terra Volta respec trial) solo at +4x8. count how many times you die, how long it took you to finish if you finish at all, how many insps you popped, temp powers you carried, etc. Now go run a team with a nice mix of ATs (doesn't really matter what). compare how many times you died, how long it took, etc. Now forget your toon for a second and focus on the members of your team. THAT is your contribution when YOU team. I hope this helps people realise their worth.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Six Six

[MTeague]

21 hours ago, Six Six said:

"Does not need a specific AT" is NOT about the need for a specific AT. It's exactly that. The team doesn't need [insert specific AT here].

QFT

 

It should be noted, that <ObiWan> From a certain point of view</ObiWan>, even Blasters are entirely unnecessary. 

 

Sure, they kill stuff fast. But everyone can deal decent damage. and its' rare that speed MATTERS.

Even if you care about clear times, if you've ever been part of the glory that is an All Defender Task Force, you still steamroll things mighty fast. 

Is your AT "not needed"?  Sure. Neither is anyone else's. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

QFT

 

It should be noted, that <ObiWan> From a certain point of view</ObiWan>, even Blasters are entirely unnecessary. 

 

Sure, they kill stuff fast. But everyone can deal decent damage. and its' rare that speed MATTERS.

Even if you care about clear times, if you've ever been part of the glory that is an All Defender Task Force, you still steamroll things mighty fast. 

Is your AT "not needed"?  Sure. Neither is anyone else's. 

And I don't see this as a problem. The problem for me is when I'm soloing a squishy and constantly think "wow, this would go a lot faster if I just left the squishy at the door and cleared the map with a melee character."

 

As everyone has repeatedly stated in this thread, no AT is needed for team success in this game. So why are so many ATs penalized for not having persistent mez protection?

 

All squishies should get +4 mez protect by lvl 12.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Wavicle]

The problem is not mez protection, Which you can get in various ways. The problem is the animation times of buff and debuff powers and the fact that most of them can’t be used on yourself. Since these things are not going to change much if at all, it is unlikely that support characters are going to become better soloists anytime soon.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

The problem is not mez protection, Which you can get in various ways. The problem is the animation times of buff and debuff powers and the fact that most of them can’t be used on yourself. Since these things are not going to change much if at all, it is unlikely that support characters are going to become better soloists anytime soon.

Nah, don't buy it. I don't faceplant on squishies due to long animations. I faceplant due to lack of mez protection.

Clarion? Can't get it until vetlvl somethin well after you've spent 50 lvls getting mezzed to death.

Rune of Protection? Great, mez protection for SOME of the time. Mezzed and dead the rest of the time.

But wait, a few buff sets grant mez protection to the user... that doesn't help when I'm not playing that powerset.

Long animation times? I've got several EM users. I know all about corpse blasting and wasting time. That's not what sends me to the hosp or back to the base.

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And I don't see this as a problem. The problem for me is when I'm soloing a squishy and constantly think "wow, this would go a lot faster if I just left the squishy at the door and cleared the map with a melee character."

 

As everyone has repeatedly stated in this thread, no AT is needed for team success in this game. So why are so many ATs penalized for not having persistent mez protection?

 

All squishies should get +4 mez protect by lvl 12.

I think I understand your position, and I can respect it. 

I just don't agree with it. 

 

As long as anyone can solo pretty much all story arc content on any character, I don't think they should necessarily have the same experience on every character, or have the same set of weaknesses on every character.  I think it's good that some characters face "can openers" that others don't. I think it's part of what keeps the game interesting. I really don't have a problem with certain Powersets being unable to provide mez protection to themselves but being able to buff the rest of the team, or certain AT's just never ever getting mez protection at all (until incarnates, and I can go verse and measure on what I think of them, but this isn't the topic for that.)

 

By all means, you have every right to push for such changes and argue for them.

I'm just um... *cough* gonnahopethatfailssorryman *cough*

[Luminara]

25 minutes ago, MTeague said:

As long as anyone can solo pretty much all story arc content on any character, I don't think they should necessarily have the same experience on every character, or have the same set of weaknesses on every character.

 

You're right, there shouldn't be a generic experience.

 

But @Bill Z Bubba and @Wavicle are also right.  Both of them.  The experience of playing a squishie is already defined by several restrictions.  Squishie archetypes almost all have lower base damage and lower damage caps.  Ostensibly, this is because the archetypes as a whole have access to stronger and more utilitarian debuffs, like -Res, which, on paper, increases their damage output to a comparable level.  But they still have to spend more time to reach that point.  More time in animations.  More time attacking.  They might be capable of "keeping up" in regard to overall damage output in a given situation, but over time, they're slower and more endurance hungry.  Buffing squishies don't even have that much going for them in many cases because they're restricted from benefiting from their own buffs, forcing them to spend more time in attack animations for a comparable return of damage output, and they aren't even guaranteed the reliability of the same debuffs other squishies may have for survival and increased damage output.

For squishies also have little or no access to status protection, on top of the penalties having to spend more time and effort working toward the goal of defeating critters and not always being able to benefit from their own powers, really is a bit much in the way of creating a unique experience.  The experience is unique enough, both solo and on teams, just in the way they have to use more powers to accomplish the same goal, and do so slower than archetypes with status protection.

 

We can still have a unique experience on squishie characters without piling status effect vulnerability on top of more time spent in animations, reduced damage output and higher endurance usage.  A solo defender isn't stepping on a brute's toes if he/she has status protection, or playing more like a brute.  The defender still has to work twice as hard as the brute, is still paying the cost of being a team-oriented archetype, and has a play style nothing like the brute's.

 

And a lot of squishie animations really should've been trimmed years ago, or the mechanics changed so powers wouldn't root or lock us into animations, so squishies wouldn't have to do so much more to achieve less.  Animation times are the most heinous oversight Cryptic made when they were designing the game, but we're stuck with what we have until/unless someone deciphers the engine and tools well enough to start trimming animations or making new ones.

[Wavicle]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Nah, don't buy it. I don't faceplant on squishies due to long animations. I faceplant due to lack of mez protection.

Clarion? Can't get it until vetlvl somethin well after you've spent 50 lvls getting mezzed to death.

Rune of Protection? Great, mez protection for SOME of the time. Mezzed and dead the rest of the time.

But wait, a few buff sets grant mez protection to the user... that doesn't help when I'm not playing that powerset.

Long animation times? I've got several EM users. I know all about corpse blasting and wasting time. That's not what sends me to the hosp or back to the base.

It's not about faceplanting. The vast majority of Support toons are WAY safer than Blasters. It's kill speed I'm talking about. The time spent on Buff powers is destroying your dps.

[Wavicle]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Nah, don't buy it. I don't faceplant on squishies due to long animations. I faceplant due to lack of mez protection.

Clarion? Can't get it until vetlvl somethin well after you've spent 50 lvls getting mezzed to death.

Rune of Protection? Great, mez protection for SOME of the time. Mezzed and dead the rest of the time.

But wait, a few buff sets grant mez protection to the user... that doesn't help when I'm not playing that powerset.

Long animation times? I've got several EM users. I know all about corpse blasting and wasting time. That's not what sends me to the hosp or back to the base.

To clarify and echo what @Luminara said, you're right Bill and it actually goes along with what I am saying.

If you don't have mez protection then you have to spend even MORE time using buff/debuff and cc to keep yourself upright while simultaneously trying to do damage. That cuts into your dps EVEN MORE.

[Sir Myshkin]

Office Notice To: All Re: Mez, Faceplanting, Performance Metrics   Please review category specialist "Mad King", subsection 8 (Defender), paragraphs 1 - 4, footnote v3.0 Term review, "Spawn Collection"   Footnote: "Can't mez you if they're dead or on the floor dying."