Focused Feedback: Sonic Manipulation

[Vanden]

Just now, Solarverse said:

All I know, is that I could sit in Atlas Park and shove these guys for days...that is just too damn funny!

Please don't, they need you to test other things too

[Solarverse]

Just now, Vanden said:

Please don't, they need you to test other things too

LOL!

[Six-Six]

on migraines, vertigo, and resonance...

I got another one: Ear Worm. you infect a target with an ear worm (which you all know is a sound bite that he won't be able to get out of his head) and is thus unable to take part in the fight, or for all tents and porpoises, stunned.

LSS or Last Song Syndrome may also work.

...just thought of another one: Discombobulate.

😃

Edited October 25, 2020 by Six Six

[capricorpse]

On 10/24/2020 at 4:30 PM, Zepp said:

 

 

Testing out the powers:

• Sonic Thrust having a repel component is fun, but make the power less effective.

I disagree, the Repel gives it better usability because it works on stronger enemies.  You can pin them to the wall for a moment it's quite helpful on Ki Push.

[Zepp]

17 minutes ago, capricorpse said:

I disagree, the Repel gives it better usability because it works on stronger enemies.  You can pin them to the wall for a moment it's quite helpful on Ki Push.

I understand your point, however because Sonic is more blappery than Martial (although I tend to go blapper on martial as well), creating distance can cause issues. And while pinning (my main is an Ill/Storm troller, and I used to run Hurricane, so I know all about pinning) is a good strategy, it is limited and small mistakes take the enemy out of your sole -res power's range.

[Zepp]

1 hour ago, Six Six said:

on migraines, vertigo, and resonance...

I got another one: Ear Worm. you infect a target with an ear worm (which you all know is a sound bite that he won't be able to get out of his head) and is thus unable to take part in the fight, or for all tents and porpoises, stunned.

LSS or Last Song Syndrome may also work.

...just thought of another one: Discombobulate.

😃

 

[Replacement]

8 minutes ago, Zepp said:

I understand your point, however because Sonic is more blappery than Martial (although I tend to go blapper on martial as well), creating distance can cause issues. And while pinning (my main is an Ill/Storm troller, and I used to run Hurricane, so I know all about pinning) is a good strategy, it is limited and small mistakes take the enemy out of your sole -res power's range.

2 notes on Sonic Thrust (both of which also apply to Ki Push)

1. They can be used while mezzed, due to Defiance.  This makes them often superior to other Manipulation t1s.  I don't know about you, but I could take my t1 immobs off my tray after about 30 or so and not even notice.  Whereas my /Martial blaster uses Ki Push at 50 and beyond.
2. The Repel is probably intentional to ensure the player doesn't just KB>KD it.  It's likely seen as a balancing mechanism that you can't turn this into an easy stomp-delivery mechanism.
    

[Chuckers]

Just started with this powerset. It seems that when Sonic Thrust misses, it doesn't play it's sound fx. 

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

They can be used while mezzed, due to Defiance.  This makes them often superior to other Manipulation t1s.

But all Manipulation t1s are usable while mezzed.

 

2 hours ago, capricorpse said:

I disagree, the Repel gives it better usability because it works on stronger enemies.  You can pin them to the wall for a moment it's quite helpful on Ki Push.

That wouldn't be very helpful in Sonic, because Sonic Thrust doesn't have a hold during its repel like Ki Push does.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Vanden

[Replacement]

8 minutes ago, Vanden said:

But all Manipulation t1s are usable while mezzed.

I thought my statement felt a little light.

 

All T1s can be used while mezzed, but an immob is unlikely to stop much incoming damage while mezzed.  A KB/Repel attack handily makes melee opponents disappear.

[Recovery8]

So, I haven't really gotten to play around with the set too much but it feels like a nice balance of control. I'm not sure what powers in builds just yet are going to be totally skippable. I'm honestly curious what the community opinion on that is so far?

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, Chuckers said:

Just started with this powerset. It seems that when Sonic Thrust misses, it doesn't play it's sound fx. 

Ditto.  Can confirm.

 

I have no problem with the word migraine and I don't like vertigo.  Ear worm is funny, but probably not what we are going for.  Personally, I wouldn't change the name, but if we do what about the more generic term, "headaches"?  Alternatively, how about "nausea?"  Both are affects of actual sonic weapons.  https://theconversation.com/sonic-attacks-in-china-and-cuba-how-sound-can-be-a-weapon-97380

 

I do wish that more of the sonic manipulation set had -res as that is the affect most commonly associated with sonic powers in game. 

 

I started a new sonic/sonic blaster to level naturally (no "freebies" or double XP), although I do get IOs from the freebies menu.  So far so good, but he's only level 13.

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

All T1s can be used while mezzed, but an immob is unlikely to stop much incoming damage while mezzed.  A KB/Repel attack handily makes melee opponents disappear.

Well, the value of which you want depends on the foes in question. A melee-ranged knockback power won't work on the guy standing across the room that's spamming holds (though granted, you're a Blaster so you do have at least one primary Blast to deal with it). The Sonic Thrust power is certainly better for melee enemies, though, but that's to be expected.

[oedipus_tex]

A bit off topic, but like others have noted, Repel used on gray enemies is subject to the Purple Patch. If you ever want a good laugh, run around Atlas Park as a level 50 Force Field Defender with Force Bubble toggled on.

[CaptainLupis]

Sound booster, in the character creation screen, doesn't change the redish colour of the body focussed part of the animation, regardless of whether original, bright or dark is selected or colours chosen. The rings effect that moves up and down from the body does change colour. I don't know if that is working as intended or a bug.

 

I also don't know if it is the same in game as in the character creation screen as the game client crashes every time I try to enter the game (32 bit version), it gets to the loading screen, and seems to be loading the zone fine, then kicks to desktop. It's the same for transferred and newly made characters.

[ThrillMill]

I apologize in advance if this question doesn't belong here. I personally love the set in Testing and as a lifelong fan of the Blapper lifestyle for Dominators; I was interested in know that makes for a fantastic Blaster Primary to Blap with? I was thinking Electric or Radiation give their PBAoEs and targeted AoEs. 

[CaptainLupis]

55 minutes ago, ThrillMill said:

I apologize in advance if this question doesn't belong here. I personally love the set in Testing and as a lifelong fan of the Blapper lifestyle for Dominators; I was interested in know that makes for a fantastic Blaster Primary to Blap with? I was thinking Electric or Radiation give their PBAoEs and targeted AoEs. 

Probably best to ask that in the Blaster section of the forum to not derail the focussed feedback.

[Replacement]

12 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Well, the value of which you want depends on the foes in question. A melee-ranged knockback power won't work on the guy standing across the room that's spamming holds (though granted, you're a Blaster so you do have at least one primary Blast to deal with it). The Sonic Thrust power is certainly better for melee enemies, though, but that's to be expected.

Yeah technically immob and the KB/Repels are both only truly effective vs melee (leaving aside niche +range kiting techniques), so this is all my opinion.  But my opinion is that it's far easier to push someone away who's already in melee ("stunned by a Freak with hammers for hands" comes to mind) than to proactively immobilize folks.  The proactive approach means you're spending animation time that could've been attacks, and then there's a high likelihood you'll still close to melee with them for other Manipulation attacks anyway.

[Trademarked Name]

I probably won't play this powerset because I feel it's a bit too derivative of other powers. but if people like it for thematics, similarly you might want to consider making alternate animations so they look like they are coming from the head/face, like the Sonic Attack has (you can emit from hands OR emit from head) would be a good option.

 

The Sonic Thrust repel is sort of entertaining at first, yeeting a low level across the zone is sort of fun. But it seems antithetical to the powerset.

 

I like that in COH we have so many powers that have their own special or status effect that give your toon a uniqueness. Fire: DoT, Cold: Slow, Dark: -ToHit, Psychic: -Rech, Sword/Sonic: -Resist, etc. But I sort of wish sonic had a unique status eff to it. -Resist is odd for it to be a side effect of sound emission. -DEF seems more thematic as the target is covering their ears or sensory overwhelmed/head throbbing to be able to dodge/block/gird effectively. But radiation blast is already -DEF. I always liked that Rad. Emission has -Regen, but never understood why Rad Blast was -Def. There are some powers that have a natural ebb and flow to them, and Radiation (both sets) seem to be worked to try to remove that set ebb/flow in order to optimize them. Conversely Psionic Blast is very powerful at low level because no enemies have resist to Psionic damage, but when you get to the high 40's every enemy seems to have good Psionic Def or resist, and you're having to learn to deal with that waxing power set that has a dearth of AoE and most powers are mod dam except the Extreme T9 power that oddly is Point Blank on a ranged attacker. But it seems like it's the fair counter balance of being so OP at low level. Like Nova on Energy blast.

Not sure what that ramble is, except that I'm a bit confused on the thematic effects of a few sets and this Sonic Manipulation just seems to add to the list of powers that just don't know exactly what they thematically are.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Trademarked Name

[csr]

Sonic Barrier is missing the Power Customization option to show floaters (it shows them in all three current options however).

[capricorpse]

4 hours ago, Trademarked Name said:

I probably won't play this powerset because I feel it's a bit too derivative of other powers. but if people like it for thematics, similarly you might want to consider making alternate animations so they look like they are coming from the head/face, like the Sonic Attack has (you can emit from hands OR emit from head) would be a good option.

 

The Sonic Thrust repel is sort of entertaining at first, yeeting a low level across the zone is sort of fun. But it seems antithetical to the powerset.

 

I like that in COH we have so many powers that have their own special or status effect that give your toon a uniqueness. Fire: DoT, Cold: Slow, Dark: -ToHit, Psychic: -Rech, Sword/Sonic: -Resist, etc. But I sort of wish sonic had a unique status eff to it. -Resist is odd for it to be a side effect of sound emission. -DEF seems more thematic as the target is covering their ears or sensory overwhelmed/head throbbing to be able to dodge/block/gird effectively. But radiation blast is already -DEF. I always liked that Rad. Emission has -Regen, but never understood why Rad Blast was -Def. There are some powers that have a natural ebb and flow to them, and Radiation (both sets) seem to be worked to try to remove that set ebb/flow in order to optimize them. Conversely Psionic Blast is very powerful at low level because no enemies have resist to Psionic damage, but when you get to the high 40's every enemy seems to have good Psionic Def or resist, and you're having to learn to deal with that waxing power set that has a dearth of AoE and most powers are mod dam except the Extreme T9 power that oddly is Point Blank on a ranged attacker. But it seems like it's the fair counter balance of being so OP at low level. Like Nova on Energy blast.

Not sure what that ramble is, except that I'm a bit confused on the thematic effects of a few sets and this Sonic Manipulation just seems to add to the list of powers that just don't know exactly what they thematically are.

I always attributed the -resist to a sort of destabilizing effect of the vibration on your armor/body etc ... but it might just be me.  I'm not sure that makes any MORE sense than it being a creature's response to the loud sound though honestly.  this just made me realize I never questioned that assumption!  lol

 

the Sonic Blast makes sense to be mouth-emitted, but I think these new powers seem more like overall Vibration Manipulation to me, which is cool.  Even if I usually go for hand FX, I agree it should be able to emit from mouths or hands like the sonic blasts. EDIT**** - However there are several attacks that already emit from the mouth, and I'd love to see having hand-anchored animations!  Sorry was a bit unclear earlier. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by capricorpse

[Steam_InGen]

• T1: Sonic Thrust (Melee, Minor DMG(Smash/Energy), Foe Knockback)
  • A focused attack of intense sonic power that violently sends a nearby foe flying. Deals minimal damage, but can be very effective. Recharge: Fast
    Spoiler

    Used it and at first I thought I had saw wrong, then used it the next baddie and proceeded to laugh for a minute straight cause I sent the dude thur the building in front of me... XD As fun and funny as this is I feel the kb mechnic has to be fixed. 

     

•  T2: Strident Echo (Melee, Moderate DMG(Smashing/Energy), chance for Hold)
  Spoiler

  forgot to test this, I usually don't take a whole lot of melee range powers as a blaster. No opinion.

  • Strident Echo deals minor damage over time. It has a low chance of causing a migraine, leaving the target shaking in pain and helpless. Recharge: Slow
•  T3: Echo Chamber (Ranged, Minor DMG(Energy), Foe Hold)
  • Encases the target in a field of sonic waves, dealing energy damage and holding them in place. Recharge: Slow
    Spoiler

    Don't take ST holds, blasters get no bonus to holds, so wont hold a boss on one go, using holds on baddies that die in 3 hits seems a waste.

     

•  T4: Sound Booster (Self +DMG, +To Hit, +Special)
  • Greatly boosts your attacks for a few seconds. Slightly increases chance to hit. Moderately increases the duration of mez effects. Moderately increases the chance for Sound Manipulation powers to induce migraines. Recharge: Long
    Spoiler

    This power is interesting, it seems like a normal build up. I saw no indication that I was giving really bad headaches or not. So not even sure the mechanic is even WAI.

     

•  T5: Deafening Wave (Melee (AoE), High DMG(Sonic/Energy), chance for Hold)
  • You create a large field of sonic waves, causing damage to all foes around you. It has a moderate chance of causing migraines, leaving them shaking in pain and helpless. Recharge: Slow
    Spoiler

    Fully kitted out, packed on the reds to damage cap, and did so little damage I bearly saw +4 minions health even move. my run literally took 4 to 5 minutes longer on my water/Sonic than on my water/fire.  Again didn't even see any indication I was causing headaches.

     

•  T6: Sound Barrier (Toggle: Self +Absorb, +Recovery, +Res(Smashing, Energy, Sleep))
  • Creates a barrier around the caster which reduces incoming energy and smashing damage, provides protection against sleep effects and grants an absorption shield. Recovery is also increased. Recharge: Moderate
    Spoiler

    Nice to be trying something new with giving a secondary some resist. this power is ok, but I feel can be improved.

     

•  T7: Disruption Aura (Toggle: Foe -Res)
  • You emit a constant wave of sonic energy around yourself, weakening the Damage Resistance of all nearby foes. Recharge: Moderate
    Spoiler

    Not that I'm not greatful for a set power of AoE -res, but this power I feel is the core reason the set falls short. The one reason I sometimes don't go melee but a rare occasion is the fact that baddies love to run from ranged due to taking too much damage. (An old and rather outdated mechanic to be honest) so this power only works in unique cases like big group fights that don't end right away. I believe this power needs more work done, and other effects added to it to be more worth while. 

     

•  T8: Sound Cannon (Ranged (Cone), Foe Stun, Knockback)
  • You generate a powerful sonic wave that will knock back and disorient foes in front of you for a short time. Recharge: Long
    Spoiler

    Took this power thinking it did damage, even a little. once i learned it was a stun with no damage, respec'd back to steam burst. Might be useful for kb proc?

     

•  T9: Earsplitter (Melee, Heavy DMG(Smashing/Energy), chance for Hold)
  • You generate an earsplitting sound wave right in the face of your foe, inflicting great damage. It has a good chance of causing a migraine, leaving them shaking in pain and helpless. Recharge: Slow
    Spoiler

    As far as I'm concerned the most balanced power in the set. but it is a clone of positronic fist with a faster animation.

• In short, the set needs some work to be sure, but I see a set that has a lot of potential. Give a floating message when you give a headache and a little more adjusting to the powers and I see gold.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Steam_InGen

[capricorpse]

Overall responses to Sonic Manipulation - 

 

Great idea, very excited for the set!

 

I love the Repel in Sonic Thrust.

 

As far as the sonic effects, I am not sure what the proper way to describe these things may be but I'll do my best.  I work as an effects animator, but I do 2D animation and not particle physics. 

I think some of the sonic FX could stand to have another dimensional axis.  Meaning, the sonic ripple effects are very disc-focused, which is cool.  But I think the PBAoE and maybe even the T9 melee (though I didn't play much with that one) could be improved by having a wave of ripples or one circle that goes perpendicular to the one that travels out, or even to all sides of the character relative to the viewer.  I hope this makes sense.  Like how the glow on the edges of Faraday Cage will track with the observer as you move around the sphere.   This would give that feeling of impact and vibration, even when you happen to view the AoE from the side, like if a teammate is hovering, or you have a low camera angle.  This could also apply to the -resist PBAoE aura, but if it's sustained it may need special consideration.  Consider also adding on the emission point (hands, face) to have a small spherical or perpendicular ripple in addition to sending the flat ripple stream toward the target?  Or maybe a soft glow within the spaces where the rippling takes place?  I know sonic should be an overall lighter FX set, but it feels like the higher tier powers could be filled out with a bit more... volume. 

Some of these ideas could be done with the rippling FX pieces from Gravity Control's Gravity Distortion, they have a sonic vibe and good dimensionality.  But again, I'm not totally sure how it works reusing FX from other powers. 

 

Echo CHamber is great. it could be cool to plus up the interstitial FX between the rotating rings, that sort of static field.  Could make some interesting color combos if it has a stronger presence. 

[Draeth Darkstar]

Gonna start testing out Sonic Manipulation in a minute. Before I get into the game, initial impressions.

 

First and foremost, if you ignore everything else I ever say about the set, please: give us alternate animation options for Echo Chamber, Sound Cannon, and Earsplitter. It took us literally years to get the live devs to give us alternates to the mouth/head emanating attacks on older sets. Please, please, please, pretty please do not launch this new set without that same option. Please.

 

Mechanically, the set looks pretty well rounded for the most part, but I have a few comments.

1. Sonic Thrust: It's odd to see another new Power Thrust clone as the tier 1 get the same numbers as Power Thrust, in the same patch that's buffing Ki Push to be significantly better than both when it was also a Power Thrust clone.
2. Echo Chamber: Considering that the entire rest of the set is melee oriented, a 60 ranged hold feels out of place. It would feel and synergize better with the rest of the set if it were a melee attack with better DPA.
3. Deafening Wave: Having only one damaging AoE is probably my biggest complaint, however I will caveat that it's nice that it's also got an advantage in being quite a bit larger than most Blaster PBAoEs. It would be nice if other secondaries that only have one AoE could get them improved in this or some other way as well.
4. Sound Barrier: Giving 7% base S/L resist is probably the single weakest Blaster sustain power side-perk. I get that it's very thematic for Sonic powers, but, Blaster mods and max health being what they are, it's very underwhelming for them.

As an aside, I realize this patch is already huge, but launching Sonic Manipulation just begs for buffs to the Blaster version of Sonic Attack. The Defender version is great because of their potent debuff numbers, but the Blaster version has always been considered bottom of the barrel terrible, and it would be nice if we could look forward to the matched set being good together when this goes live.

 

---

 

After my first session with the set, testing levels 1-6 and 20 gameplay:

1. Sonic Thrust: After using it, it feels bad to me. I like the snappy animation, but it doesn't hit hard enough to be worth using for damage and all the knockback is doing is forcing me to chase things around. If it stays like this, it'll end up like Power Thrust on all my /EM blasters - off my bars. That would be a real shame. I'd rather have it be a punchy melee attack with either an immobilize or a decent chance to hold.
2. Strident Echo: Holy cow, this power has the most annoying sound effect in the game. Please, do not keep it. Otherwise it feels great to use.
3. Echo Chamber: My initial impression holds up - I'd definitely like it to be more damaging in trade for the range, I'm in melee anyway.
4. Deafening Wave: It sounds cool, looks cool, and feels very punchy. A moderate chance to knockdown would be nice to provide some safety for such a close ranged set, and also it would make the visual look more... right. It feels like it should be knocking things down.
5. Sound Barrier: 7% S/L resist feels exactly as useless as I expected it to. I think it would be really cool to change this to a PBAOE aura power that either had a frequent chance for knockdown or hold, sort of like World of Confusion, instead of the resists being its extra effect. That would me much more useful and still thematic with the other sonic powers for a set that wants you up close and personal all the time.

Tangentially related, I paired it with Sonic Attack, and... wow, that set feels even worse than I remembered it - even with the free full IO set slotting from the Beta freebies menu.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Draeth Darkstar
Adding initial gameplay review

[Zepp]

Alright, tested a blaptroller with Rad/Sonic.
Now, tested a blastroller with Ice/Sonic.

1. The base DPA for the three ST-Ranged Holds are Freeze Ray (137.64), Bitter Freeze Ray (69.07), & Echo Chamber (37.46).
   - Let's be frank Manipulation ST holds: Echo Chamber (37.46), Positron Cell (41.21), Strangler (33.25), & Ice Arrow (16.86) all need increased DPA.
   - I also feel Blast ST holds (outside of Ice): Tesla Cage (4.32) & Abyssal Gaze (53.05) need adjusted DPA as well.
   - Choking Powder (64.32) Is probably about right.
   - Time Stop needs either an added damage element or an improvement to its -Regen.
2. Being able to slot all three ST Hold on Ice/Sonic with both Devastation and Lockdown procs makes keeping Echo Chamber ranged preferable.
3. Sonic Barrier's resistance should be broad-spectrum (all except Psi, like Sonic Dispersion) and possibly higher (10%) and/or the absorb portion should be increased. Currently it seems to under-perform.
4. Disruption Aura still feels underwhelming.

 

Overall, Ice/Ninja is a better Blastroller combo (with the passive damage - especially with the new adjustments, in addition to stealth and Blinding Powder) even though Ninja does not have the chance for hold. Sonic does contribute some to the Blastroller experience, especially for those focused more on the blast and less on the troller. That being said, the other disadvantage of this set for blastrolling is that you have to give up your range to make it truly effective.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Zepp