Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[Saikochoro]

5 minutes ago, Troo said:

I don't disagree. But #18 out of 20 is not what I would expect after such an effort.

Somewhere in the middle of the pack.. maybe

 

If #19 and #20 are likely to be addressed, that could leave EM dead last. That just doesn't match with what folks are saying.

 

Ideally all sets would be middle of the pack, but one set has to be last. I think the difference between top to bottom is a more important consideration. It still might be quite the gap. I’m not sure I haven’t studied the updated list yet.  Is the spread huge? Or has it tightened up some?
 

One consideration I keep in mind is that this EM has extremely good single target burst damage. It might be paying for that with overall slower clear times. 

[Bopper]

51 minutes ago, Troo said:

Did @Galaxy Brain post his test numbers already in the thread?

 

With beta EM coming in I believe third to last (#18 out of 20 sets). How do we reconcile that compared to the anecdotal reports?

( I dislike the word anecdotal, don't anyone take it negatively, I'm not discounting anyone's report )

 

Was that not the current beta version of EM?

Is it just the difference between Live and Beta is so great that we're not looking at performance comparisons to other sets?

 

I was thinking maybe beta EM was a tad over powered.. 3rd to last in overall performance not what I expected though.

 

You probably only saw the SO results. Scroll down in his post and he also showed basic IO builds (so builds come with some extra global recharge and the build in general has more balanced enhancements in their powers). These IO builds only used Rare sets, no purples, no ATOS, no winters. Mostly just Oblits, Matos, etc.

 

Those results will show EM as being slightly worse than average, ranking 8th to last in average clear times. As you add more recharge to the set, EM will improve as its biggest hitters have longer base cooldowns.

[Troo]

28 minutes ago, Bopper said:

You probably only saw the SO results.

The SO IO combined results placed it #15 out of 20. There is a lot there with the final ranking blend.. so grain of salt. That said, solid intel with controls in place and nice sample sizes.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Troo

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

The IO result placed it #15 out of 20.

Got a link?

 

For reference, here is what I'm looking at.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Bopper

[Troo]

[sniped lol]

 

Yes that's the one. I didn't want to copy and paste charts here if there was going to be a similar EM specific post.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Troo

[Bopper]

Just now, Troo said:

I didn't want to copy and paste charts here if there was going to be a similar EM specific post.

Good, we're looking at the same thing. You seem to be referencing the combined results (SO with IO), I am talking about just the IO, which shows EM as #12 out of 20.

[Lines]

Good AoE is bound to do better than good ST in those tests. Chewing through large groups all at once just isn't EM's schtick. The mid/low times are on brand.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Lines said:

Good AoE is bound to do better than good ST in those tests. Chewing through large groups all at once just isn't EM's schtick. The mid/low times are on brand.

Exactly, it was likely the design goal. Top tier single target set with mediocre AoE. The ST will only do so much in a clear speed test.

[Troo]

Just now, Lines said:

Good AoE is bound to do better than good ST in those tests. Chewing through large groups all at once just isn't EM's schtick. The mid/low times are on brand.

Agreed.

The low ranking was surprising given what people were saying.

The highest EM score (#12 out of 20) seemed to be a reasonable spot. Still a bit of a challenge correlating it with the reports that leaned toward something that could jump further up the list.

 

[Galamane]

On 10/24/2020 at 11:45 PM, Neogumbercules said:

I'm already late to this party. Others have provided good feedback. I think the set is strong and super fun to play.

 

My only negative feedback is on the animation of the new PBAOE. Perhaps it can be something besides the baseball pitch?

This! 

[Wavicle]

I'd like to suggest a slight change based on my play on Beta today.

Total Focus grants Energy Focus as it currently does but in addition give Whirling Hands a CHANCE to give Energy Focus that scales with number of targets. Hit enough targets with WH and you'd be guaranteed Focus.

This would allow you to use WH > PC as a combo without having to TF first in AoE situations.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Wavicle

[Draeth Darkstar]

Alright, so I did a bunch of testing with an Energy Melee/Shield/Mu Scrapper tonight.

 

Early levels still feel slow, cludgy, and squishy, but that's a problem that I have with all melee, so, that's pretty much par for the course.

 

After tricking out the build to perma-haste and all positions softcapped, no incarnates, I am very, very pleased with how the set plays now.

 

Single target, I could run an attack chain of TF-ET-BS-Zapp almost always seamlessly, AoE I could chain TF-PC-WH-Ball Lightinng and throw in a Shield Charge or Bone Smasher here and there to fill.

 

Based on my clear times, the set doesn't seem to be doing outlandish damage, even with the extra from Shield and Mu, but it feels great. Power Crash is one of the most visually satisfying AoEs in the game now, that wind up + boom animation just looks so good. The total AoE dps isn't amazeballs, but the incredible single target 1-2 punch of TF-ET makes up for it, and with the 50% crit proc in TF, ET becomes a pretty reliable heal on a Scrapper, plus the stunning felt a lot more reliable than I thought it would. I only died once running +4x8s without a Level Shift, and that was when I forgot to refresh Active Defense and got stunned like an idiot.

 

I am overall very, very happy with how this came out. Please ignore the nay-sayers who don't like the light combo mechanics. Every power in the set is better than it was even if you completely and totally ignore that Energy Focus exists, there is literally no reason the button mashers should be complaining.

 

As a related note - Please let Energy Blasters have the TF->BS Energy Focus combo. I would beg for Power Crash in place of the Blaster Stun, but I don't think it'll happen even if I do (although /Energy Manipulation could really use that AoE!). It's just so crunchy, I want to be able to do that whammy on a Blapper!

Edited October 26, 2020 by Draeth Darkstar

[Super Atom]

51 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Exactly, it was likely the design goal. Top tier single target set with mediocre AoE. The ST will only do so much in a clear speed test.

Mediocre AoE sounds about right for EM, as long as it's got that ST shine. What we have on live is god please why AoE, so Mediocre is a large improvement weirdly.

 

[Golden Azrael]

8 hours ago, Super Atom said:

It's a multi-stage balance. If you're doing instant ET everytime, you're unlikely doing increased AOE damage everytime. If you're doing increased AOE damage all the time, you're unlikely doing stronger ST. Repeat repeat repeat. It's a self-balance system that delivers stronger ST, stronger AoE, without doing both at the same time causing over performance. Going only for one in either direction keeps the set in limbo of being too weak in a specific area, like it or not the game as evolved to a point where a sets AoE capabilities absolutely factor into its viability.

 

Keeping it centered around SO's is a good starting point, but keeping IO's in mind is also important. You can't let IO's make something run wild because a gigantic portion of the game from low to high levels have IO's in them.

 

Eventually people will need to move past 2005 City of Heroes. It's long gone and unless those other guys do it, It's never coming back.

I echo your party sentence.

 

Old EM was a plodding dinosaur.  It would have been the easiest thing in the world for the HC devs to roll back the game to pre nerf EM.  But that's backward looking.  What next?  Roll back the game to issue 3 (which I liked by the way.)

 

It's time to move forward.  Titan Weapons has had it's wings clipped.  Long time come.  Played like a dog.  Over performed.

 

EM was a slow, grind fest of boredom.  It's had a much needed shot in the arm.  

 

As I put to Troo in a private email.

 

I quote:

 

Energy Melee works for me.  It was never 'great' but it is 'now' for all the reasons I outlined in numerous comments.  I like the 'new' EM.

 

All of it.  🙂

 

I suspect I won't be alone.

 

It was a plodding dinosaur on live.  I did 50 levels of it.  A real grinder.  I tried the old and new.  I saw the old and new played on live.  It was nothing special outside of ET.  The new mechanism gives fans of the 'old' a chance to get their piece of cake.  And for those progressives like me who like the new?  I get to enjoy both old and new ET with an uplift in damage over the whole set.  It's far smoother.  Fluent.  Imaginative.  You don't have to like it.  That's your prerogative. 🙂

 

I've done several tests (eases the Pylon test to one side...) of my own making from my own play.

 

How can I make the 'big mob' of debuffers go away test.

 

Arti Knive Ladies.

 

TF.  Energy Crash.  BU.  WHs.  EC.  TF.  Crash.  WHs.  Sprinkle Short ETs in there.  With the odd long punch for fun and variety.  Then Tier 1-3 for 'goodnighting' what's left.

 

Then the boss is left?  Go Long.  Go Short.  Go long.  ET.  TF giving me quick and slow.  

 

And that mob wasn't around any more.

 

This worked even better with Devouring Earth which used to be a right grindy pain.

 

What I like about this?  I'm sure there is an optimal 'one way' (BORING) but I like the fact I can do it in a variety of ways.

 

End result..?  Mobs.  Melted.  Boss?  Rocked to their core.

 

My anecdotal evidence is that this is faster, more varied, more powerful, MOAR damaging.  And their are plenty of routes to take out mobs now.  You can AoE spam for the mins.  And BIG TRUCK hit for the bosses.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

2 hours ago, Super Atom said:

Mediocre AoE sounds about right for EM, as long as it's got that ST shine. What we have on live is god please why AoE, so Mediocre is a large improvement weirdly.

 

COmpared to where EM was.  The new AoE stacking combo is respectable.  If that is medicore then I love it loads.

 

But the principle is fine.  Excel at Single and be moderate at AoE.  Which both attacks are.  We can hit build up to nudge them higher.  And take Assault from the incarnate Support pool.  And with spiritual and hasten?

 

We can rinse them for all their worth.

 

I felt that the AoE hole was a bit omission from the original set.  And Whirling was a tired, mediocre damage set with a posey animation.

 

It has had a shot and with Power Crash having it's back?

 

This is 'nose bleed' territory for EM AoE.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I'd like to suggest a slight change based on my play on Beta today.

Total Focus grants Energy Focus as it currently does but in addition give Whirling Hands a CHANCE to give Energy Focus that scales with number of targets. Hit enough targets with WH and you'd be guaranteed Focus.

This would allow you to use WH > PC as a combo without having to TF first in AoE situations.

That's a cool idea.

 

Azrael.

[summers]

A change to the baseball pitch attack animation (or an alternative animation) would be very welcome please!

 

Otherwise I found the experience much more pleasant than my Live gameplay. It was smooth and flowing and it was immediately obvious that this is better.

[Golden Azrael]

I like the 'baseball' pitch animation.  Putting their shoulder into it.

 

But I'm not opposed to an alt animation to PC.

 

A little bit more animation choice in the character creator.  I'm into things that gives people more options.

 

Ergo.  I like EM.  It now has more options.  Old timers can can access 'short' ET.  People who like the new keep it.  Those, like me?  Get to have both!  Utopia!

 

Though I thought the old EM was bit dull, I did want 'old schoolers' to have access to the short ET.  They have access to it now.  I still have access to the long, showy ET which I like.

 

Allows for a bit of showboating. 😄

 

EM does have its fair share of cool animations.  Eg. Whirling, Crash, ET, TF...

Azrael.

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Troo said:

Agreed.

The low ranking was surprising given what people were saying.

The highest EM score (#12 out of 20) seemed to be a reasonable spot. Still a bit of a challenge correlating it with the reports that leaned toward something that could jump further up the list.

 

Did you happen to see my pylon clear times?  And again pylon isn't the end all be all, because my EM EA scrapper clears the infernal mission faster than my Stalker, but the stalker has a better pylon time.

 

Kinda like GBs office scenario, it can't be the best AT everything - then you have another TW situation.  If he could only learn to slot WP.... ;-)

 

I think thats also the cool thing about the new EM - its very versatile, and it plays a bit differently across all 4 ATs - very much not cookie cutter - which I honestly wish was a sentiment that was expanded more with other powersets.  Cause you really want each powerset to feel unique when you play it on a different AT.

[Golden Azrael]

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Did you happen to see my pylon clear times?  And again pylon isn't the end all be all, because my EM EA scrapper clears the infernal mission faster than my Stalker, but the stalker has a better pylon time.

 

Kinda like GBs office scenario, it can't be the best AT everything - then you have another TW situation.  If he could only learn to slot WP.... 😉

 

I think thats also the cool thing about the new EM - its very versatile, and it plays a bit differently across all 4 ATs - very much not cookie cutter - which I honestly wish was a sentiment that was expanded more with other powersets.  Cause you really want each powerset to feel unique when you play it on a different AT.

I think you nailed it there.

 

It's far more versatile.  It was very two dimensional before.  AoE wasn't just mediocre.  It was poor.  Which resulted in very grindy missions with x8 wide setting.  Poor Build Up was fighting a losing battle trying to lift Whirling to any average heights.

 

Now you are not only a potent Single Hitter.  But you can decide Long or Short ET.  You can opt for a BM auto Disorient/stun which is a right pearler of an idea.  You can opt to raise the game of your AoE by TF.

 

And rp theme wise?  That makes sense.  You have Total Focus.  Total Focus on Energy.  So the Energy Focus idea should be central.  TF gives you the clarity to access this and make a decision about how to spend your energy resources to manage a fight.

 

Minions ganging up?  Boost your reach of your AoE and some damage!  Stack it with Whirling!  Go thin those horde minions.

 

Got a stubborn boss left?  Boy, he's in for it.  TF.  BU.  Short ET.  'What just hit me?'  and whilst he's still feeling his jaw?

 

Long ET (no end cost!!!) is coming down the track care of a short recharge. 

 

That's gonna hurt in the mornin' son.

 

Azrael.

 

PS.  You make a decent point about this versatility feeling different, therefore across all ETs.  It has a lot of design reach for each AT.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Replacement]

When looking at GalaxyCharts (tm), I also think it's important to not simply numerically rank sets based on time.  Several of those sets are within margin of error from each other (EM is within 10 seconds of 4 other sets), so it's better to note the performance clusters and determine which one Energy Melee falls into.

 

[LQT]

14 hours ago, Jimmy said:

It was all @Captain Powerhouse, and yes I agree it is excellent. Can't wait to roll an EM Scrapper.

They roll particularly well across the floor after ET'ing themselves when MoG is running! Always handy when a scrapper is kind enough to come along as Vengbait for the team :P
 

13 hours ago, Golden Azrael said:

The shorter cast times are a revelation.

 

With Spiritual Alpha?

 

This set is turbo charged BUTTER!!!

 

Azrael.

So the set melts under slight heat? You might have your metaphor backwards there if you are meaning to say it "cuts through butter [like a hot knife]".
 

12 hours ago, Golden Azrael said:

I concur.  I played this on live.  Got it to L50 etc.  Very grindy on mobs.  And slow on bosses.

A lot of your posts come off as extremely superfluous with little to no actual substance to them, however this makes me think you're just flat out trolling at this point. ET, as mentioned by a lot of others in this thread, was known for being a ST boss killing machine on Tanks originally in the early issues and continued to be a ST focused set after CoV launched. It was entirely based around doing ST damage [bar the limited options where WH was available] so calling it "slow on bosses" is flat out wrong and suggests you didn't actually play it on live since your description is the complete opposite of what people used it for - and I say this as someone who played since i4 and did use the set because of that ST focus on Tanks, Brutes, and Stalkers.
 

12 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

When, in the entire life-cycle of this game, have you ever seen significant changes happen to something that was on test based on player feedback? Oh sure, a couple of percentage points here a 1/4 of a second to an animation there, but a significant change like adding/removing a combo system?

 

The Page 5 update with several of the new enhancement sets.

The Artillery set didn't even exist at first as the original set known as Shrapnel was determined in subsequent builds to be too powerful to grant both various set buffs AND work as a tAoE "Thunderstrike" IO set for Ranged Def bonuses. So it was split in 2 and renamed to Bombardment while keeping slightly nerfed set numbers to not make the PosiBlast set obsolete, and the Artillery set was created with the Ranged Def bonuses.

This was in March of this year.

The nerfs to Shrapnel actually caused quite a few players/testers to voice their annoyance as they'd really liked what the original Shrapnel set effects were, although likely because of how OP it was in it's original state.

 

11 hours ago, Vanden said:

I don't necessarily like the idea of random chances to gain Energy Focus. The issue I see is situations where, for example, you randomly gain focus from Energy Punch. Except, oops, you already had Bone Smasher queued and you used it without meaning to. I know Energy Assault allows this, but I don't think Energy Assault has the issue where one of the possible EF spenders is way, way better than the other options in most scenarios.

 

This is how stalkers work currently in game with Stalkers Focus as a chance on attack to generate, not a guaranteed proc on every non-AS 1' attack. That said it would make such a mechanic possibly even worse were 2 such systems in effect on the same set/toon for EM stalkers trying to not only generate an out-of-Hide [OOH] AS crit, but also trying to generate EF for FET.

Although given how other 1' sets differ on Stalkers compared with other ATs [Kin melee BU/t9 for example] there is precedence for slightly different mechanics across ATs with the same powersets due to the more evasive nature of the Stalker AT compared to things that can be more upfront about their damage intake like Brutes and Scrappers.

 

10 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Stone Melee

Wait, what's wrong with Stone Melee >.>

 

EM wise tried remaking my old i6 EM/Nin but that's just going to get binned as I still detest click mez shields. Ended up with an EM/EA as have run EA on enough brutes and stalkers so can see how the 1' changes work around what the 2' needs done. In a similar boat as those who would have considered TF become a Thunder Strike-like PBAoE however also very much against all powersets becoming too homogenised so maybe giving EM a clone of another PBAoE would have been the wrong choice there in the end.

In general the new EM covers a lot more than I would have taken from any powerset previously, not to a point it feels bloated as a set but both the Nin and EA stalkers didn't really need an epic pool in the end as EM had more than enough to fill out a suitable number of powers that covered ST and AoE when needed. The obvious lack of a ranged option is really more player preference so negligible here. Additionally with picking EA as the 2' set there didn't seem to be as much of a need to focus on Body Mastery to improve Recovery as quite a few posts earlier suggest due to EndCost changes. EndDrain and similar powers can open up more power choices so there's a degree of flexibility in player choice depending on other sets picked..

 

Stalkers managed a very smooth attack chain flowing from [FET]-EP-TF-3SFAS+Hide-FET-repeat on ST with AoE likely similar however ST testing is far easier with pylons and VG base dummies [when they bother to spawn that is]. Recharges seemed to off some good options on damage proc IOs too. Had originally gone with a proc monster AS but after testing something else the proc rates on other powers meant there were also options to move some things around.

 

Brute encountered some of the issues brought up by some about Tanks regarding some AoE bloat and whether WH and PC might become an either/or situation. Will take another stab at testing that when able to look through the builder and get some more time tweeking things.

 

So far the rework is interesting, although vacuum testing á la Patchwerk is never going to give a great measure of how AoE situations turn out or encounters with any movement.

One thing that does stick out is whether the new TF animation is meant to be missing the connect sound on strikes. Might be a result of the faster animation, however even attacks that hit make no connect sound so knowing whether TF actually hit either requires a HP bar short enough to see changes on or looking at the combat log mid fight. EF occurring regardless of a hit or miss isn't exactly helpful in that matter.

[M3z]

soooo why does TF not crit again?

[ABlueThingy]

9 minutes ago, M3z said:

soooo why does TF not crit again?

TF crits.  We were talking about ET.

 

ET doesn't crit(for damage) because historically the original Devs didn't let any melee attack crit for more damage then an assassin strike.  Speculatively because they were trying to keep Assassin Strikes uniquely damaging as that kind of is all they do.  But I'm just reiterating what Capt. Powerhouse said.

 

Like he said, there is one exception and it's Crushing Uppercut and it can't do that trick unconditionally. 

 

I guess that leaves room for us to argue that ET could be an exception to the rule too as long as it was conditional?  I always liked the idea of spending more HP to do more damage.

 

 

Proof of TF crits:

 

Side note: What is that other effect?  The "Massive bonus to critical hit chance" thing?

[M3z]

Just now, ABlueThingy said:

TF crits.  We were talking about ET.

 

ET doesn't crit(for damage) because historically the original Devs didn't let any melee attack crit for more damage then an assassin strike.  Speculatively because they were trying to keep Assassin Strikes uniquely damaging as that kind of is all they do.  But I'm just reiterating what Capt. Powerhouse said.

 

Like he said, there is one exception and it's Crushing Uppercut and it can't do that trick unconditionally. 

 

I guess that leaves room for us to argue that ET could be an exception to the rule too as long as it was conditional?  I always liked the idea of spending more HP to do more damage.

 

 

Proof of TF crits:

 

Side note: What is that other effect?  The "Massive bonus to critical hit chance" thing?

Yeah I never mentioned ET, why doesn't TF fully crit, when something like greater psi blade+insight crits? This set doesn't do the burst of psi melee and probably doesn't do half the DPS of katana, so why doesn't TF crit lol.