Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

Bopper · October 26, 2020

Defender Debuff Analysis

This is some analysis I did to compare most Defender Debuff powersets across many debuff categories. I looked at:

Powersets: Trick Arrow, Cold Domination, Dark Miasma, Poison, Radiation Emmission, Storm Summoning, and Traps.
Debuffs (Single Target and AoE): To-Hit, Defense, Resistance, Damage, Regeneration, Recharge

The analysis was done using Debuff per Cycle, which looks at the average amount of debuff you get over time for all your powers when you factor in total recharge and enhancements. The recharge I used for this test was +275% (Perma-Hasten recharge levels), and the Enhancements I assumed were 90% or 54% depending on whether it uses Schedule A or Schedule B, respectively (this only applied to Defense Debuffs and To-Hit Debuffs). To get a good spread of situations, I looked at +0 targets and +4 targets to assess purple patch effects, and I looked at generic targets (no damage nor debuff resistance) and AVs (10% damage resistance, and 85-87% debuff resistance).

BLUF

The bottom-line upfront, Trick Arrow is arguably the best all-around debuff powerset. It's not the best at any one thing, but it is at least decent at everything. This is the powerset ranks for each debuff category for both ST and AoE debuffs, along with a rank-sum analysis of those performances. These results will be repeated later, I just wanted to highlight the overall performance before I bore everyone.

We can see Trick Arrow is one of the best sets for To-Hit debuffs (thanks to Acid Arrow and Flash Arrow), and ranks between 3^rd and 4^th in every other debuff category besides two: AoE Resistance and AoE Recharge, which is still a respectable 5^th. Overall, thanks to its balance, it shows out well in the rank-sum analysis. With a score of 52, it outpaces the next tier of debuff sets: Cold, Storm, and Dark. However, this is not a priority system analysis, nor is it a true performance analysis. So barely being the best versus being the best by a mile will not show up here. So…take these results with a grain of salt and treat it for what it is, a general assessment in performance. Trick Arrow is good now. How good, that is to be determined below as I will get into a lot more numbers.

How I did the analysis

I analyzed 6 debuffs: To-Hit, Defense, Resistance, Damage, Regeneration, Recharge. For Damage Debuffs, I incorporated the Resistance Debuffs a set would provide. Similarly, Trick Arrow's Acid Arrow applies a resistance debuff to To-Hit, Regeneration, and Recharge, so its analysis incorporated the benefits of Acid Arrow.

The Analysis is broken up by Single Target Debuff and AoE Debuff. A Single Target Analysis would combine ST debuffs and AoE debuffs (just because it's a single target doesn't mean you wouldn't use your AoE debuff on it). The AoE Analysis would combine AoE debuffs and Splash AoE debuffs. This distinction is made because of Poison which has debuffs that apply a strong effect on a single target and a half-strength effect to enemies in the area around the target. So I used the ST effect for single target analysis and I used the Splash AoE effect for AoE analysis.

Speaking of AoE, I do not factor in radius. An 8 ft radius is treated the same as a 25 ft radius. Sorry, there is only so much I can do and I don't have the time to apply extra analysis incorporating size of AoE.

Enhancements:

I assumed every power has a total of 375% recharge. This is the same amount of recharge you would have to reach perma hasten.

If a debuff takes enhancements, I slotted it with 90% debuff enhancement if it was Type A and 54% debuff enhancement if it was Type B. FWIW, this only applied for defense debuff analysis (Type A) and to-hit debuff analysis (Type B).

Target Types:

I analyzed against 4 scenarios for enemies: Generic +0, Generic +4, Level 50 Archvillian +0, Level 54 Archvillian +4. The Generic enemies had no resistances to damage nor debuffs. The Level 50 AV had 85% resistance to debuffs and the Level 54 AV had 87% resistance to debuffs. Galaxy Brain ran analysis on the average resistance for every AV in the game and it came to roughly 10% damage resistance, so this is what I used for the AVs. For the +4 enemies, they applied the purple patch effect modifier of 48%.

Debuff per Cycle:

Previously I mentioned I used a Debuff per Cycle calculation for my analysis. This is done by calculating the average number of stacks you get with a power and multiply that with the debuff amount. If a power can’t be stacked, it will have a ceiling of 1 (permanent single stack). The formulas used:

A quick example: Trick Arrow’s Ice Arrow can stack its Recharge Debuff. The power has 18s base cooldown and a cast time of 1.67s (1.848s arcana time) with a debuff duration of 10s. With a recharge reduction of +275%, if I spammed Ice Arrow I could cast it every 18/3.75 + 1.848 = 6.648s. The average number of stacks over time would be:

With a debuff amount of 25% recharge debuff, I would put the average debuff amount from Ice Arrow to be 25% * 1.5042 = 37.6053%. If Ice Arrow could not stack, then I would have capped the average debuff amount at 25% (permanent single stack). And if it was not perma, then the average debuff would be less than 25% (obviously).

Notes on Analysis:

Note: Sleet, I used 45s for its duration. Technically, the pet is 15s duration and the effect lasts for 30s. I decided to assume the enemy would stay in the Sleet patch for the entire 15s and would carry the debuff for another 30s after. Is this realistic? Maybe not. But that's how I analyzed it.

Note 2: I did not incorporate Fallout as I did not want to rely on an ally dying to provide a debuff effect, and I did not want to rely on there being an ally in general. So that power is not used in analysis.

Is this analysis perfect? Hell no. Odds are, you won't slot every power you have to E.D. levels of debuff and recharge enhancement. You might not even take every power. You may not spam every power when it's off cooldown. So take this analysis with a grain of salt. I simply am showing a scenario of what all the capabilities are for the Debuff Support Sets I analyzed. If this analysis is worthwhile and accepted as valid, I will do follow-up analysis that incorporates different parameters (such as lower recharge and/or lower debuff enhancement).

Results

To-Hit Debuff:

Defense Debuff:

Resistance Debuff:

Damage Debuff:

Regeneration Debuff:

Recharge Time Debuff:

Summary of Results (mentioned previously):

Conclusions

Before I summarize results and come up with my own conclusions, let me remind everyone again that this is analysis on a very high-end build. So what follows is only speaking to the build analyzed and is not an all-encompassing opinion. Follow-on analysis would be needed for such a thing.

Trick Arrow was already discussed in the BLUF, so I won’t repeat it here. But one thing I will address, I ranked Trick Arrow 2^nd overall in To-Hit debuff. This is somewhat subjective as the raw To-Hit debuff numbers are not that good when looking at Generic Targets. Dark, Poison, Rad, and Storm all outperform Trick Arrow on enemies that have no Debuff Resistance. However, I gave it the edge over these sets because of its performance against AVs. Thanks to Flash Arrow having half of its debuff unresisted, and Acid Arrow providing a 40% resistance debuff to To-Hit, it DOMINATES the other powersets against AVs – even outperforming Dark (the king of To-Hit debuffs) in these scenarios.

Cold Domination and Storm Summoning are very similar, they are excellent at the debuffs they do, and non-existent elsewhere. Both are top dogs in Resistance, Defense, and Recharge debuffs, while Storm also is very good with To-Hit debuffs. Cold sprinkles in some single-target Damage and Regen debuffs to make up for what it lacks in To-Hit debuffs to pull relatively even with Storm for a tie in 2^nd place in overall debuff performance. Many folks, though, will prioritize the Resistance debuffs which might make this their powerset of choice.

Dark Miasma is right there with Cold and Storm in terms of total performance. However, its lack of Defense debuffs and weak Recharge debuffs cost it points in the overall scoring. Now…for my own personal preference, I prioritize Resistance, Regeneration, and Damage debuffs over everything else. When looking at just those categories Dark is the top dog, scoring 30 out of a possible 42 points. Surprisingly Traps comes in 2^nd with 26 points (despite horrible Resistance debuffs, but it has fantastic Regen and AoE Damage debuffs), while Trick Arrow and Poison round it out with 24 points. Although I included Dark Servant in the individual tables, I did not include it in the final summation of results. So everything shown for Dark Servant is gravy on top.

Speaking of Poison, it’s sort of the poor man’s Trick Arrow now. Similar to Trick Arrow, it does a little bit of everything, just not necessarily as good. It is lacking in Regeneration and doesn’t rank higher than 3^rd in any category. Also, its AoE analysis is fairly generous as the splash debuffs are a very small radius.

Radiation Emission is also a jack of all trades and is fantastic at Regeneration debuffs. However, the set is mostly average beyond that. The lack of being able to stack debuffs (other than Regen/Recharge for Lingering Radiation) limits its potential. However, Fallout is not used for this analysis, but if it’s used, it’s a significant AoE debuff. So with the new TP Target and Fold Space, there could be some real fun shenanigans with having a venge-bait teammate run into a mob, die, TP them back to you, use Vengeance, then Fold Space to gather the mob around you, then Fallout for mass casualties. Then Mutation your fallen teammate and let them clean up whatever is left behind. Good times.

Finally, there’s Traps. It’s king supreme in Regeneration Debuffs and AoE Damage, and mostly hot garbage elsewhere. Similar to Radiation Emission, it can gain a lot of utility with Fold Space and its Trip Mines/Bombs (which were not used for ranking purposes as I was only looking at debuffs).

My personal conclusion, for high end builds Trick Arrow is arguably the best Debuff powerset in the game. Personal preference, I might choose Dark over it because of how I like to prioritize certain debuff sets, and I might even prefer Cold or Storm for the things it brings to the table in terms of Resistance debuffs. But overall utility, there’s not much Trick Arrow can’t do. Throw in the fact it also has damage potential with Oil Slick Arrow, and EMP Arrow is a mass Hold along with an Ally only Faraday Cage, it’s a truly useful set for almost any form of gameplay.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Bopper
formatting corrections

summers · October 26, 2020

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

Corruptors use a lower debuff scale than defenders. So do controllers and masterminds.

Yes but the patch notes, which are in Defender numbers, says it should be 15% when it's almost 20% in game

Luminara · October 26, 2020

3 minutes ago, summers said:

Yes but the patch notes, which are in Defender numbers, says it should be 15% when it's almost 20% in game

The patch note indicating 15% is incorrect.

zenijos10 · October 26, 2020

57 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Rage, Unleash Potential.

Technically, every Resistance debuff which deals 0 damage, and is within a set with no other powers which deal damage, and has a duration of less than infinite, requires the use of one or more powers which deal damage in order for the debuff to reach it's full stated function. Those powers can come from the user's other set, from pools, from *PPs, from pets, from teammates, or even from other enemies (Confuse), but until and unless damage is dealt, the debuff is, quite literally, nothing more than an emote. Yes, it might functionally do what it was designed to do, but functionally, it's useless in a vacuum. It absolutely requires the use of another power to functionally be of any value, and for most Resistance debuffs, that means using a power outside of the set which contains the debuff.

That's the problem with your question. You're placing OSA in a vacuum and suggesting that it may not be working properly because it's different. No-one plays in a vacuum. No-one is restricted to one set (even Kheldians have two sets, a primary and a secondary), or denied access to temp powers, or locked out of pools, or barred from the market. No-one is forced to play without access to a means of igniting OSA, nor is anyone forced to make a macro or bind, or take a specific set. Outside of the artificial limitation introduced by putting OSA in a vacuum, this problem, OSA having zero potential means of ignition, doesn't exist.

I played TA/Dark as my main for years. I know, conclusively, that this vacuum doesn't exist.

I am not placing anything in a vacuum. I am trying to understand and calibrate an informed pin I kn. I am asking for an apples to apples comparison regarding power scope (not power scale). Half of the power simply doesnt work without a specific damage type that many primary powersets do not have access to and that seems very weird to me.

I feel, based on the rage I am receiving in this thread is not the appropriate place to discuss or learn. So I will instead give a hearty thank you to each person doing the good work of testing the beta changes and to the hard working volunteers improving this game for us.

Thank you.

summers · October 26, 2020

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Rage, Unleash Potential.

If you're referring to Unrelenting from Presence, it does nothing, despite what Rage says.

TygerDarkstorm · October 26, 2020

I haven't been able to put hours into this yet, and I'm by no means a hardcore player, min/maxer, or number cruncher or anything, but I love the concept of TA and wanted to go play around with it on the beta. I opted for a bots/TA MM as I have yet to make a TA MM (for obvious reasons on "live"). I figured the bots would be pretty tanky, they have some self heals and bubbles, so seemed like a safe pick to try out the new TA.

Starting her out at level 20, with the MM ATO's and some basic IO's, and still only on basic mission settings. So far I like the feel of the set with the bots; damage is a little slow, but I feel as if the debuffs are helping the bots kill mobs faster. I really like the feel of the changes to TA so far. I have a demons/cold MM at 50 that can be a pretty devastating combo, but I wonder now with these changes how beasts/TA and demons/TA will fare.

Replacement · October 26, 2020

5 hours ago, Replacement said:

While there may be something similar with Ice Arrow's -Special, Acid Arrow specifically doesn't affect -ToHit debuffs. The Ice/Psi/Electric examples are correct, though.

This guy was an idiot, @oedipus_tex, it absolutely includes ToHit effects, including in the screenshot I posted back at the start of the thread!

Replacement · October 26, 2020

I have an entirely way-too-cumbersome idea to replace the location buff in EMP Arrow. To make it worse, I'm going to lay out the logic for how to work it into power definitions (based on my own small-brained understanding) first and then explain it.

The owner of the EMP Arrow has a large area pbaoe effect granting allies a hidden Grant Power: "EMPWatcher" which does nothing by itself.
EMP arrow attaches a Grant Power "EMPed" to affected enemies.
EMPWatcher is a global proc on your allies' attacks that runs a check to see if the target they're hitting has the EMPed condition (see Boggle logic in Psionic Melee).

If the condition is true, then a successful attack grants ally a buff.

...So in other words: make EMP add no buffs directly. Instead, attacking EMP'd enemies grants you and your allies a (non-stacking) buff. Self can even get a lesser version.

Well that was worse than I thought.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Replacement

4th.survivor · October 26, 2020

Alright, I got some time on the test server to bear out my assumptions this afternoon since it didn't seem fair to spill ink without getting dirty.

power descriptions during character creation
Entangling Arrow - the power description text misspells the words 'grounds' as groudns.

Acid Arrow - "This acid eats through armor, causing damage over time, reducing target's Defense as well as their resistance to debuffs..." Should probably read "the target's Defense"
EMP Arrow - "Allies in range of the pulse will also their resistances to all damage except toxic" should be reworked, I know what it's trying to say, that allies will have improved resistance, but it doesn't quite get there

Next I loaded up a version of my TA/archery defender, slotting him out etc. I did not get into incarnates as I thought a hyper build was already enough of a skew without opening up that can of worms.

I did Grandville paper missions solo. One vs. Arachnos in a bank, and an office mission against Malta, +0/x4. Build was a bit overtuned so I didn't have much trouble, but Arachnos were harder since my builds defense and resistance are lopsided to S/L and that served me well against Malta, whereas Arachnos was throwing out more of a variety with Mistresses, Mu, toxic, energy beams, etc.

Right off the bat, some visual things-
Since Entangling arrow now debuffs resistance, it puts little red shields on the target. Poison Gas arrow similarly creates little red swirls on your target like Assault, presumably from a 'negative value' damage buff. You guessed it, Flash arrow causes targets to have the beige crosshairs we associate with tactics orbit around their heads as well. These aren't major things, but they're noticeable.

Gameplay feel:
Compared to my rotation on Everlasting, I felt acid arrow more or less dropping out of use, which makes me a bit sad. The set overall does feel beefier, but without a team to debuff things for it was hard to fully stress test it as I can run harder content but to a point. Several people have piped up about their intrigue for Acid Arrows "debuffs debuff resistance" effect, but in practice the use for this power is not clear except to lead with it and hope that everything else is doing better for it. In practice, I barely noticed the times I forgot to, which makes me strongly consider Acid Arrow skippable under the current test build. EMP arrow not having a crash is great, and the boosted values across the board are nice. It felt like I got a damage buff, because in a backwards way I did by applying more -res.

Here are my thoughts on the powers as they stand @Captain Powerhouse

Entangling Arrow - I do not like this change. Remove the single target -res and put back the -rech (tweak values, let it be the baby brother -rech solution to ice arrow or glue arrow). CP mentions balance including pvp balance is a concern but this power seems to exist solely for the pvp crowd as it stands, so I don't understand this choice. We could easily skip this unless we desire an immobilize, now it's a must have, which defeats the design goal of consolidating power effects and furthermore has me tossing out my "weaken net" on anything higher than an LT, inflating my rotation.

Flash Arrow - good job, -tohit values actually seem to matter a bit and are probably worth enhancing somewhat, but to a level 1 defender the choice of this vs. entangling is not gamblers vs. sting or jab vs punch, it's swipe vs. follow up.

Glue arrow - good job, but giving it a ton of -rech from entangling and then giving entangling a new effect that we still want doesn't save us from having to make choices, we still need them all, so this will probably still end up getting skipped half of the time or more

Ice Arrow - good job, I like that it actually does something other than be a proc beast vs. something it can't hold now. Fine with the -rech or -special being tweaked, powerset has plenty to go around. It's still the biggest damage dealer on my rotation with 5 procs loaded, but I understand procs are a separate conversation.

Poison Gas arrow - good job, maybe make it a hold a la Poison (in which case make EMP arrow a stun, hold vs. robots, like the tac arrow version) "this isn't a control set" I hear, we're talking about tweaking the set, it's a good tweak with precedent in a similar set (poison), and furthermore this is a debuff set with a secret ally buff now as well, so that line of reasoning is taking on water fast. Tweak the uptime of the hold if need be to be compareable with the hold uptime EMP currently offers, I'm talking about shifting things around, y'know? Either way I'm fine with it.

Acid Arrow - I don't like this change. Give it the single target -res (instead of entangling arrow), or 50/50 split single target -res (10%) and aoe -res (10%) so that the initial target gets both (-20%), and cut disrupting back to 30% (aoe 40% total). Move EMP's regen debuff into this power (tweak the duration for Acid Arrow's higher uptime). Lose the -debuff resistance effect and put into disrupting arrow instead, if at all. Lose the heal resistance, it does nothing, unless you like the 50% version as a pvp spike mechanic, in which case let's be clear that's why it's being included. This power needs more work, it's not doing what its power description describes and it's ingame effect is counterintuitive and entirely opaque - players do not see debuff values, they see the outcome of their debuff. How would I know if my larger numbers or the enemy bars slower/faster crawl were an effect of my debuff, or of my debuff which debuffs debuff resistance that I later applied a debuff to? What is the point of consolidating powers if I have to fire this one first to get the full effect out of my subsequent debuff? It's irksome to have the -res moved into disrupting to save me from firing off a power and then create a power that I'm obliged to fire off to get a better effect from my debuffs. Would make more sense to replace entirely with power boost in that case. Trying to be fair, but that's how I see it.

Disrupting Arrow - lose the -end, focus any & all -end efforts on EMP arrow. Add back the -debuff resistance axed from the new acid arrow here if you are intent on this mechanic. This power should either be -40% res, or -30% like the longbow grenades and work 10% of that aoe -res back into the acid arrow splash. I'd also note that loading almost all the AoE -res into this, an emplaced power, makes it pretty useless in pvp and sensible for why their should be a single target or targeted AoE source of -res. Acid Arrow is the place for this effect IMO, not entangling.

Oil Slick Arrow - no news is good news, still lovely, I checked and added pet damage to the combat window to make sure it was still proccing, happy to report that's the case.

EMP arrow - love it without the crash! And yet... move the -regen to acid arrow (and tweak the duration), if you make poison gas arrow a hold, make this a stun with hold vs. robots like the tac arrow version so that the holds can't be stacked since (wait for it...) this isn't a control set. Improve its sapping ability and damage vs robots, both are a bit laughable even on the test version. Remove the ally +res, it makes no sense. If allies need to be made more durable, hit the mob with a beefed up poison gas arrow, that's the Trick Arrow way (happy to report it's possible now, too!)

Thanks for the attention to this set, I'm not trying to be ungrateful, but some "design" choices were made here and a fan-server should rightly be open to fan criticism/feedback I think. Hopeful for the version we might see.

Thanks for reading

Luminara · October 26, 2020

9 minutes ago, zenijos10 said:

Half of the power simply doesnt work without a specific damage type

The bonus half. The half we can activate or not, as we choose. The half that isn't accounted for in the balance of the other half, specifically because it's not automatically granted, either within the power or within the set.

OSA without OSBurn is a powerful Defense debuffer, Slow and Knockdown patch, with a long duration and reliable effects. It is, in that half alone, appropriate for the set, and for a defender primary, and the set was designed around that. Not around OSBurn's potential damage output, not around the players' ability to defeat OSTarget and summon OSBurn, but around the debuffing and soft control that OSA itself does.

Amp Up requires a teammate or pet to use in order to deal damage, both from the perspective of a player dealing damage, and from the perspective of the power itself dealing damage. It's balanced around that limitation. The player can't use it on his/her character, it has to be used on an ally of some kind, a proxy damage dealer. OSA is balanced around its debuffing and soft control effects, and allows players to use it for extra damage if they choose to, without affecting the balance of the debuffing and soft control. Different powers, but the same basic concept for balance - give it something extra, don't take away from the other effects, but impose a limitation.

Every power is balanced in multiple ways. Everything a power does is balanced against everything else a power does. Every + comes with a - in some way. OSA's - is having to actively do something to initiate ignition, using the appropriate damage type. This is the balance applied for the + of dealing damage. It exists as a + without applying a - to the other half of the power because that + requires player initiation with a power from another source, regardless of what that source is.

20 minutes ago, zenijos10 said:

that many primary powersets do not have access to

And many other sets do have access to those damage types. 10/13 defender secondaries and corruptor primaries, 5/7 mastermind primaries, 3/9 controller primaries have access to Energy/Fire damage in at least one power. Controllers have the fewest options, and they still have the ability to select one of four *PPs, the Sorcery pool, temporary powers, origin powers, procs, teammates or lucky (unlucky) actions by critters. OSA isn't restricted to only being usable by specific primary/secondary combinations.

If anything, it's less restrictive than sets with actual combo mechanics, because you can choose to use another power to ignite OSA. I can't choose to use Cross Punch to build Frenzy or the combo builder in Street Justice, I have to use the appropriate power to access the set's mechanic. Should we change all combo sets to allow pool powers, other primary/secondary powers, temporary powers, procs, teammates and pets to build up combo mechanics? Would that be balanced? No and no. They're restricted in the way they are for balance reasons, the powers are balanced around those restrictions and reworking them to remove the restrictions would lead to imbalance. Those sets would have to be rebalanced around the new combo building capability, which would mean lowering damage, increasing endurance costs or recharge times, reducing hit chances or something else.

You say there are restrictions. There are, but not the restrictions you envision. OSA not being ignited by a TA power isn't a restrictions, it's a freedom, it means none of TA's powers are balanced around having an in-set ignition mechanism, OSA isn't restricted to only being ignited by an in-set mechanism, and players don't even have to select a specific power or perform a predefined combination in order to access that extra damage. The restrictions are that you have to choose whether or not you want to use the extra damage, and how you do so. Not that you have to select "the right" primary or secondary, or limit your build in any way.

Bossk_Hogg · October 26, 2020

3 hours ago, Vanden said:

How's that different from using any other targeted power to light it?

It's actually been posted several times, you can't just dismiss it because you don't like the answer. It's because lighting the slick to do damage is a bonus, not meant as a core feature of the power.

It's not a "bonus", its a core feature of the power. It's why the power is on a THREE MINUTE recharge. Spare me this nonsense.

Replacement · October 26, 2020

9 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

Several people have piped up about their intrigue for Acid Arrows "debuffs debuff resistance" effect, but in practice the use for this power is not clear except to lead with it and hope that everything else is doing better for it.

Thanks for posting feedback! I wanted to mention this quoted part: apparently you don't actually need to lead with AA. Because it's a "resist" effect, it actually continues to recalc. This means an existing ToHit debuff would suddenly find itself amplified once AA ticks in.

Since we have nothing else like this in-game, it's something that (if it goes live) we will need to get clarity on and educate the masses about.

Bossk_Hogg · October 26, 2020

18 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

A lot of the debuffs have been made much stronger with PvE balance and the reality that debuff sets need to remain competitive against +3 foes relative to buffing peers.

I have not stopped thinking about how this will impact even level combat, to be specific: PvP

Please tell me some of this will trickle down to the other debuff sets. Maneuvers shouldnt be outperforming core dark/rad toggles in net miss chance.

Rodion · October 26, 2020

The text description for EMP Arrow is missing a critical word:

"This arrow can unleash a massive pulse of electromagnetic energy on impact. This EMP can affect machines, and is even powerful enough to affect synaptic brain patterns. It will incapacitate all foes in its radius. Additionally, most machines and robots will take moderate high damage. Allies in range of the pulse will also [missing word] their resistances to all damage except toxic, as well as be protected from status effects, knockbacks, endurance drain and recovery debuffs. Recharge: Very Long"

Monos King · October 27, 2020

Trick Arrow: Bug Reports & Commentary

Taken with perspective of a well-performing (Demons/TA) and decently performing (Ninjas/TA) Mastermind. Will begin with observations and will detail my findings and opinions towards the end. With this in mind, powers in Red are not affected by the mastermind endurance penalty, which is telling for later performance. These are also the first 4 powers listed, for ease of viewing. Those listed with an asterisk (*) have distinctly larger commentary.

Disruption Arrow
- Fails to spawn in air (entity falls and takes damage, this is in stark contrast to live)
- Continues to Increase Max End rather than decrease it
- Maintains a brief (1-2s) stacking period
- Is not affected by mastermind endurance penalty
- -Max End is mostly useless if not a percentage value. Since it is unlikely to end up like Curse of Weariness, it should be replaced or just removed.
- Is not intended to stack. Could possibly stand to see increased -res for MMs and Corrs.
- Performs well.
Ice Arrow
- Duration of -special is too long, and should be divided in half.
- Values for masterminds are good, recognizing eventual schedule changes these should be maintained.
- Is not affected by mastermind endurance penalty
- Is the prime form of mitigation for masterminds, particularly those whose AoE ruin Poison Gas Arrow. Needs a moderate duration increase.
- Debuffs are powerful and useful.
Acid Arrow
- Is not affected by mastermind endurance penalty
- Doesn't include -resistance to defense debuff. Would not hurt to include, but is not necessary.
- Very powerful, requires no changes whatsoever.
- Attack Type tagged as "unique". Just an acknowledgement that this is a description most toxic powers are given.
EMP Arrow*
- Is not affected by mastermind endurance penalty
- Could use a short (15s) large recovery buff
- Removal of self debuffs was excellent, and existing debuffs are fantastic. However...

The conditions of its new buff, EMP Field, clashes with mastermind playstyles, and puts additional pressure on them.

Currently, the ideal sequence of events to keep your pets alive would be to open with Flash Arrow -> PGA -> Acid Arrow (-debuff res) ->Go-To Command into the area of attack -> EMP Field.

You would also like to use Ice Arrow on bosses or hard hitters in preparation of the EMP Arrow. However, EMP Arrows purpose as a CC actually clashes with its purpose as a AoE +res because CC is preventative damage mitigation, and the +res is to be granted in the midst of the fight. Essentially, you cannot buff your pets until you have already put them at risk. Not to mention, you are for some reason, unable to buff yourself. This could be remedied a few ways.

Activate EMP Field at the casters location and not the location of EMP Arrows release.
1. This would make it easy for the caster to receive their own buff, as well as prep pets before they are sent into the fray.
2. This would, however, remove the newly added ability to buff from a distance. I do not consider this significant as this is how debuffs already function, and the alternative is superior for controlling how your allies are buffed.
3. Would be more logical than currently; rather than an arrow that is hostile to enemies also being helpful to friendlies from the same impact, the local pulse is galvanizing and the receiving end of the arrow is debilitated.
Convert EMP Arrow into a Select Location ability
1. Downside is this would become another macro for people to create, which is apparently frowned upon.
2. Would permit the ability to choose EMP as a buff before battle, or a debuff initiating it.
3. Other downside is the former proposal and existing application both offer the possibility of both.
Faraday Cage mechanic instead of click
1. Downside is it would be a buff that lasts only one spawn, as EMP Arrow's recharge is too high to be used wave to wave.

I consider Proposal 1 to be the best solution to this issue. It allows for control over who is buffed far easier, as allies don't need to be in the thick of battle to receive the benefit. It is also more realistic.

Returning to individual powers:

Glue Arrow
- Awesome power concept, works splendidly.
- Does not stack; needs to. This power is far from spammable, and would be perfect allowed to stack -recharge from the same user. Similar powers do, and this should be one of them.
Entangling Arrow
- Awesome power concept, works well.
- Would be better off doing -to hit to help with survivability and theme. -Res definitely does add some damage to sets that require it though.
Flash Arrow
- Perfect Power Concept.
- Resistable portion of -to hit could stand to be improved a bit, as mastermind sets that are not already survival strengthened are still a little bit doomed. This should also be done due to pets compatibility with Poison Gas Arrow.
Poison Gas Arrow*
- Re-applying sleep patch is very useful. However...

Poison Gas Arrow is still a totally useless form of mitigation for primaries such as Thugs or Bots (mostly when Assault Bot is acquired, and ineffective for most other primaries once they are a high enough level. When pets do not use AoE to continuously ruin Sleep, it is actually quite good for the pet survivability. Now, the goal of a power is not to be excellent with every other power, and some combinations (and archetypes) will simply be far more compatible with some powers than others. The nature of TA makes it not the best secondary for masterminds no matter how it is spun, and the improvements to this set are allowing masterminds to use Trick Arrow without it being any form of penalty. The most that could be done to help offset this is:

Give Poison Gas Arrow tiny (~5%) chance for hold. (Masterminds Only)
1. Increase Rech appropriately
2. Slightly increase duration

Since the gas is a re-occuring patch, the low chance will not be trivial, and could even stack with itself potentially. This is a change that would make it a far more effective power for masterminds.

Oil Slick Arrow
- Operates perfectly, excellent extra damage.

Like all masterminds, my demons and ninjas Trick Arrow characters survived and killed well at lower levels. They did notably at higher levels as well.

With nothing but SO's and no incarnates (2x5 mission settings), playing a ninjas/TA MM had surprisingly decent survivability and fantastic damage. For those of you that do not know ninjas, this is ASTONISHING. They could benefit very little from PGA, however, and could die instantly if not monitored. Demons/TA under the same conditions also survived very well and did good damage. I am soon to test with mercs as their existing CC should make them the perfect combo with TA. It is also likely, however, they will die instantly when put into more challenging circumstances. Here are primaries that I predict will, simply by nature, have poor survival with TA.

1) Zombies (nothing to patch resistance holes well, no innate defense, but -tohit would be bolstered by Acid Arrow)

2) Thugs (should somewhat be remedied by their defense buffs and CC) (AoE ruins Sleep CC instantly). Definitely should dps to death enemies before they are killed, like ninjas, so should be fine.

In short, TA is actually doing pretty well for most masterminds right now, though it could be made better with minor changes. It will not be super with any of them (outside of DMG) because it doesn't offer the best protection, but it is no longer a skip. It is now just another set with a specialty and some downsides, and that is fantastic.

Monos King · October 27, 2020

Being a click heavy set, TA is bound to drain a lot of end. An issue arises, though, that it does drain quite a bit of end, but many of the powers are erroneously not even receiving the correct endurance penalty. People will actually be training and using many of these powers now, and with a mastermind that will be an endurance deficit hauntingly swift.

That's one of the reasons EMP should probably receive a short, but substantial, +recovery buff in its repertoire. Perhaps even Disruption Arrow can take a page from EMPs dual-effect function and instead of decrease enemy max end by a little, increase ally max end by a lot. That might be a bit much though.

Luminara · October 27, 2020

1 hour ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

It's not a "bonus", its a core feature of the power. It's why the power is on a THREE MINUTE recharge. Spare me this nonsense.

If OSA were balanced around the damage it deals, it would have a minimum recharge time of 6 minutes (360s) and a minimum 33% higher endurance cost, in line with powers which dealt similar damage when it was created. But Castle stretched the balance budget to the limit and granted the power discounts to recharge time and endurance cost to bring it down to expected defender stats for primary powers because it's a debuff and soft control with optional bonus damage.

KaizenSoze · October 27, 2020

I have tried to run TA defenders in the past, but gave up. So, I am not an expert.

Also, not sure what TA defenders are capable of in terms of soloing.

I figure play experience is the best way to find it if the buffs are effective.

But tonight my level 51 TA/Elec defender was easily able to solo 54x8 council. I could solo 53 Arachnos, but that was a lot tougher. But I barely know what I am doing with all the powers.

The build below is total kludge. I wanted to see how end drain was with acid arrow. Also, to have an easy way to ignite oil slick.

The -32% -tohit from a slotted Flash Arrow is amazing. I could stand in the middle of the spawn and suck all the end up with minimal damage.

Just look for Little Shocker on Brainstorm if you want to test things out.

Quote

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.1.25
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Secondary Power Set: Electrical Blast
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- TmpRdn-Acc/Slow(A), TmpRdn-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(50), TmpRdn-Acc/Dmg/Slow(50)
Level 1: Charged Bolts -- SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDfnBst-Dmg/Rchg(21), SprDfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(23), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(25)
Level 2: Flash Arrow -- DmpSpr-ToHitDeb(A), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb/Rchg(3), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(3)
Level 4: Ball Lightning -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(5), PrfShf-End%(7), Bmbdmt-Dam(7), Bmbdmt-Acc/Rech/End(9)
Level 6: Ice Arrow -- Lck-%Hold(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(9), GldNet-Dam%(17), NrnSht-Dam%(17), ImpSwf-Dam%(19), PcnoftheT--Rchg%(19)
Level 8: Poison Gas Arrow -- Acc-I(A)
Level 10: Short Circuit -- SynSck-EndMod/+RunSpeed(A), SynSck-Dam/Acc/End(11), SynSck-EndMod(11), SynSck-Dam/Rech(13), SynSck-EndMod/Rech(13), SynSck-Dam/Rech/Acc(15)
Level 12: Acid Arrow -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Ann-ResDeb%(36), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(36), AchHee-ResDeb%(37), TchofLadG-%Dam(37), ShlBrk-%Dam(37)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(15)
Level 16: Aim -- GssSynFr--Build%(A)
Level 18: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 20: Zapp -- SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(25), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(34), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36)
Level 22: Stealth -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A)
Level 24: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 26: Oil Slick Arrow -- AchHee-ResDeb%(A), ImpSwf-Dam%(27), PstBls-Dam%(27), Ann-ResDeb%(33), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(33), Rgn-Knock%(33)
Level 28: Tesla Cage -- Dvs-Hold%(A), Lck-%Hold(29), NrnSht-Dam%(29), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(31), GldNet-Dam%(31), PwrTrns-+Heal(50)
Level 30: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), GldArm-ResDam(31), GldArm-End/Res(40)
Level 32: EMP Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Power Sink -- PwrTrns-EndMod(A), PwrTrns-Dam/Rech(43), PwrTrns-Dam/EndMod(46), PwrTrns-Dam/Acc/End(48), PwrTrns-Dam/Acc/Rech/End(48), PwrTrns-+Heal(48)
Level 38: Thunderous Blast -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(40), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(40)
Level 41: Charged Armor -- StdPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(42), StdPrt-ResKB(42)
Level 44: Electric Shackles -- Dvs-Hold%(A), GldNet-Dam%(45), Lck-%Hold(45), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(45), NrnSht-Dam%(46), UnbCns-Dam%(46)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Quick Form
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Prv-Absorb%(42), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(43), Mrc-Rcvry+(43)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(5)
------------

Edited October 27, 2020 by KaizenSoze

Monos King · October 27, 2020

Bug Report

Enemies with built in To Hit Resistance are not affected by the debuff to their to hit resistance. This includes Crey Tanks and Circle Death Mages.

Possibly a display bug.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Monos King

macskull · October 27, 2020

5 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

Acid Arrow - I don't like this change. Give it the single target -res (instead of entangling arrow), or 50/50 split single target -res (10%) and aoe -res (10%) so that the initial target gets both (-20%), and cut disrupting back to 30% (aoe 40% total). Move EMP's regen debuff into this power (tweak the duration for Acid Arrow's higher uptime). Lose the -debuff resistance effect and put into disrupting arrow instead, if at all. Lose the heal resistance, it does nothing, unless you like the 50% version as a pvp spike mechanic, in which case let's be clear that's why it's being included. This power needs more work, it's not doing what its power description describes and it's ingame effect is counterintuitive and entirely opaque - players do not see debuff values, they see the outcome of their debuff. How would I know if my larger numbers or the enemy bars slower/faster crawl were an effect of my debuff, or of my debuff which debuffs debuff resistance that I later applied a debuff to? What is the point of consolidating powers if I have to fire this one first to get the full effect out of my subsequent debuff? It's irksome to have the -res moved into disrupting to save me from firing off a power and then create a power that I'm obliged to fire off to get a better effect from my debuffs. Would make more sense to replace entirely with power boost in that case. Trying to be fair, but that's how I see it.

There are some points here:

I think having the -res in Entangling Arrow isn't a bad thing since it nets you (haha) a relatively spammable -res power and Disruption Arrow now has double the -res as before if you're looking for higher-value AoE -res (and Disruption Arrow is also on a faster recharge and longer duration than before and has a larger radius than Acid Arrow).
Heal resistance is something that isn't found many places, but for the mobs that do have heals, it's really nice. Siege, War Walkers, CoT Demons, Crey, Cimerorans, Rikti... lots of enemy groups have heals in their toolkit and the high-HP ones (EB/AV) are more frustrating to fight because they get a huge chunk of their HP back just when you thought they were done. -Heal mitigates that at least. If we're on "let's be clear" here, the initial implementation of these changes did not have a separate reduced PvP value, and if it was only being added for PvP purposes it would only work in PvP when in reality its effectiveness in PvP is reduced relative to the PvE version.
There are plenty of effects that are more or less transparent to the players, but that doesn't mean those effects aren't... effective.
You do not have to fire off this power and then other debuffs to get the effect of this power, the game continuously calculates buffs/debuffs. If the target already had a 20% tohit debuff applied to them and I hit them with Acid Arrow, that tohit debuff would be bigger until the effects of Acid Arrow wore off.
This power doesn't function like Power Boost or even a reverse Power Boost (that'd be Weaken, Benumb, or Ice Arrow). -Res(debuff) is an entirely new thing that no other set has in its toolkit. This power now allows you to act as even more of a force multiplier by making everyone's debuffs more effective.

Captain Powerhouse · October 27, 2020

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

Bug Report

Enemies with built in To Hit Resistance are not affected by the debuff to their to hit resistance. This includes Crey Tanks and Circle Death Mages.

Possibly a display bug.

Not a bug, it seems.

AVs have a min resist for -ToHit of 30%

Bosses a Min resist of 20%

Lieutenants a min of 10%

Minions and players a min res of -300%

The debuff still will eat through any additional -ToHit res the critter might have (level 50+ AVs tend to have powers that grant them very high resistance to most debuffs.)

KaizenSoze · October 27, 2020

More play testing. Carnies are still a no go, between the phasing and the holds. 😞

Soloing score card:

4x8 Council not hard

2x8 Arachnos easy, 3-4x8 not easy

3x8 CoT not a threat

I tried out the Control hybrid, since I have three ST holds, AOE hold, and a AOE sleep. Makes me feel like a controller for two mins.

I feel like TA paired with any secondary that benefits from Acid Arrows -resists to uhm resists is going to work well. Dark, Ice, Psi, Electric seem like the best candidates, because -toHit, Recharge, End drain.

This all hinges on Flash Arrow's -tohit w/o that it would be a ton harder to solo. At low levels FA will be a massive team benefit.

My current attack chain, I have stealth and celerity running. FA->stand in the middle of the pack->AA->PGA->DA->OSA->Short Circuit which ignites OSA->EMP A if up.

Or I can drawn them into an ambush, at a corner->DA->OSA->Ball Lightning->Wait for the lead mob to around the corner->AA->PGA->Short Circuit->etc

Current build. I will try other secondaries as I have time.

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.1.25
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Secondary Power Set: Electrical Blast
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- TmpRdn-Acc/Slow(A), TmpRdn-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(50), TmpRdn-Acc/Dmg/Slow(50)
Level 1: Charged Bolts -- SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDfnBst-Dmg/Rchg(21), SprDfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(23), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(25)
Level 2: Flash Arrow -- DmpSpr-ToHitDeb(A), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb/Rchg(3), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(3)
Level 4: Ball Lightning -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(5), PwrTrns-+Heal(7), Bmbdmt-Dam(7), Bmbdmt-Acc/Rech/End(9)
Level 6: Ice Arrow -- Lck-%Hold(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(9), GldNet-Dam%(17), NrnSht-Dam%(17), ImpSwf-Dam%(19), PcnoftheT--Rchg%(19)
Level 8: Poison Gas Arrow -- Acc-I(A)
Level 10: Short Circuit -- SynSck-EndMod/+RunSpeed(A), SynSck-Dam/Acc/End(11), SynSck-EndMod(11), SynSck-Dam/Rech(13), SynSck-EndMod/Rech(13), SynSck-Dam/Rech/Acc(15)
Level 12: Acid Arrow -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Ann-ResDeb%(36), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(36), AchHee-ResDeb%(37), TchofLadG-%Dam(37), ShlBrk-%Dam(37)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(15)
Level 16: Aim -- GssSynFr--Build%(A)
Level 18: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 20: Zapp -- SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(25), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(34), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36)
Level 22: Stealth -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A)
Level 24: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 26: Oil Slick Arrow -- Rgn-Knock%(A), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Rgn-Dmg(27), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(33), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(33)
Level 28: Tesla Cage -- Dvs-Hold%(A), Lck-%Hold(29), NrnSht-Dam%(29), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(31), GldNet-Dam%(31), PwrTrns-+Heal(50)
Level 30: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), GldArm-ResDam(31), GldArm-End/Res(40)
Level 32: EMP Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Power Sink -- PwrTrns-EndMod(A), PwrTrns-Dam/Rech(43), PwrTrns-Dam/EndMod(46), PwrTrns-Dam/Acc/End(48), PwrTrns-Dam/Acc/Rech/End(48), PwrTrns-+Heal(48)
Level 38: Thunderous Blast -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(40), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(40)
Level 41: Charged Armor -- StdPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(42), StdPrt-ResKB(42)
Level 44: Electric Shackles -- Dvs-Hold%(A), GldNet-Dam%(45), Lck-%Hold(45), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(45), NrnSht-Dam%(46), UnbCns-Dam%(46)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Quick Form
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Prv-Absorb%(42), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(43), Mrc-Rcvry+(43)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(5)
------------

Edited October 27, 2020 by KaizenSoze

4th.survivor · October 27, 2020

8 hours ago, macskull said:

There are some points here:

I think having the -res in Entangling Arrow isn't a bad thing since it nets you (haha) a relatively spammable -res power and Disruption Arrow now has double the -res as before if you're looking for higher-value AoE -res (and Disruption Arrow is also on a faster recharge and longer duration than before and has a larger radius than Acid Arrow).

Heal resistance is something that isn't found many places, but for the mobs that do have heals, it's really nice. Siege, War Walkers, CoT Demons, Crey, Cimerorans, Rikti... lots of enemy groups have heals in their toolkit and the high-HP ones (EB/AV) are more frustrating to fight because they get a huge chunk of their HP back just when you thought they were done. -Heal mitigates that at least. If we're on "let's be clear" here, the initial implementation of these changes did not have a separate reduced PvP value, and if it was only being added for PvP purposes it would only work in PvP when in reality its effectiveness in PvP is reduced relative to the PvE version.

There are plenty of effects that are more or less transparent to the players, but that doesn't mean those effects aren't... effective.

You do not have to fire off this power and then other debuffs to get the effect of this power, the game continuously calculates buffs/debuffs. If the target already had a 20% tohit debuff applied to them and I hit them with Acid Arrow, that tohit debuff would be bigger until the effects of Acid Arrow wore off.

This power doesn't function like Power Boost or even a reverse Power Boost (that'd be Weaken, Benumb, or Ice Arrow). -Res(debuff) is an entirely new thing that no other set has in its toolkit. This power now allows you to act as even more of a force multiplier by making everyone's debuffs more effective.

I take your points but can’t shake the impressions I have of these changes. Acid arrow is enhancing the debuff effects of other debuff powers. It’s a developers way of saying, “well, these powers are as good as I can justify or am comfortable making them, but the whole set isn’t as good as I want it to be, so one of these powers will do the remaining heavy lifting when used in tandem (a point well illustrated with painstaking statistics comparisons above, bravo) whether I fire it first, last, or in the middle, acid arrow is still a nothing power that is taking up space in rotation for a counterintuitive effect. It seems sloppy. There is a reason acid powers lower -res and players are familiar with that - verisimilitude should be a design goal. Now I didn’t need to loose two arrows for my -res needs, but I do need to soak’em in vinegar to get the most out of flash, EMP and others.

the same verisimilitude rationale can be applied to the entangling changes- there are no other web or net based powers which -res. Even -def would be more logical (suggested above), since a constricted target cannot defend itself as well. Ah! Kryptonite-indestructible supermans only weakness! Well, that and nets, apparently.

I understand TA players want the buff but I’m not interested in a bunch of shoehorned effects, when a stated goal by the people making the change was consolidating effects. A certain amount of overlap is desirable- an aoe -def (acid), a single target -def (net), an aoe slow (glue), a single target slow (ice), an aoe -res (disrupting), a single target -res (acid) IS possible and incorporates all the performance tweaks being considered here. The -debuff res can be placed into disrupting if it is becoming a sacred cow to the testing archers.

My counterpoint for -debuff res’ inclusion made for the sake of argument would be that IF these already stronger debuffs need to be stronger vs AVs and uneven cons (debatable considering analysis above puts TA quite ahead of the pack in this regard with its inclusion) then make a greater portion of debuffs irresistable to avoid brute forcing the math with high magnitudes making even con engagements trivial. The design goals for the revamp were stated - to improve performance and consolidate power effects. The test build succeeds at the former introduces awkward attempts at the latter. My feedback is geared towards the latter aspect, as I feel forced to take net arrow in order to be even close to optimal, while acid arrow has been sacrificed as a tax power for an effect which you rightly point out has never existed before in a 20 year old game and which can arguably be safely omitted omitted. But, IF -debuff res is a less hamfisted way to situationally improve debuff performance versus targets which are notoriously hard to debuff (AVs etc), then I still argue the power effect assignments be reallocated according to the more intuitive framework I’ve advocated for and the -debuff res effect find its home in disrupting arrow.

for the sake of illustration, imagine a different ‘new’ mechanic tied more broadly to the theme of arrows in general and which used the built in nature of some arrows being targeted vs others emplaced. Rather than lowering debuff resistance, arrows which target a mob would have a greater portion of their effect apply against it, or have a greater portion of that effect be irresistible vs the single target. The guy you stick is gonna feel it, the flash/splash/spray will hamper the crowd. This would be an alternative approach that could be taken to addressing the problem of hard targets, while ground targeting arrows (glue, disrupting, etc), are relegated solely to crowd pleaser effects. Much of this is already present and would require minimal rework

thanks for reading and the responses. As Replacement wrote, we are threading a needle!

Trickshooter · October 27, 2020

On 10/24/2020 at 1:56 PM, Blackfeather said:

Oh, that's good to hear! It did look like he was looking forward to some improvements to the powerset for sure.

I've been aware of incoming improvements for about 6 months, I think. Not everything went in the direction I would have gone, but overall I'm very happy to see what has been done. Wish I could say I had more to do with it, but I haven't played much, if at all, in the last couple of months. My job suddenly changed and I have a lot more responsibilities now, lost about 60 lbs and got engaged, so life is kind of getting in the way of video game time. 😅 Hope to get some time to add more thoughts and search for bugs soon-ish.

gameboy1234 · October 27, 2020

On 10/24/2020 at 9:39 AM, 4th.survivor said:

'm assuming these changes already have some consensus among the Homecoming Team, so I'd propose reshuffling a bit given

-PvE enemies very rarely heal each other

Gotta disagree with this. I was just fighting some Tsoo over on the live server and Sorcerers are a pain in the butt. While it's situational that you get enemies that heal, it certainly does happen and I think Acid Arrow would be taken and used for those situations.

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