Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (Build 1)

[Apparition]

3 minutes ago, Bopper said:

If I recall, I believe afterburner costs more to use. 0.65/sec.

 

I will have Evasive on all my squishies. It's a hover blaster's wet dream to move as freely/quickly in combat. Plus the Immob rotection and KB resistance, yes please.

 

Yep.  Tough and Weave are both 0.33, while Afterburner as is now is 0.65.  Evasive Maneuvers is basically in between, and I'm fine with that.

[GM Lines]

Hidden several posts to keep things moving along - try to avoid getting into debates, folks.

 

❤️

[Troo]

I'll move along. Seems like some of the concerns and questions were heard. Thanks for that.

 

•  Stealth
  • Stealth radius increased to match the numbers Invisibility had before this patch
    • PvE radius has increased from 36ft to 55ft
    • PvP radius has increased from 389ft to 611ft
  • Out of combat defence increased from 3.5% to 7%

In combat numbers? Even if no change might help anyone not using mids.

 

[Shaman Coyote]

There have been a full 7+ pages of notes since I last read this yesterday so I hope this hasn't been addressed already. Just in case I tossed a tl/dr at the end.

 

Setting aside the stealth portion of the new stealth pool changes, calling it a "travel pool" is very misleading. Infiltration is no different (as described in the patch notes and shown in game) than any of the free movement powers. Those are not nearly on par with the true travel pool powers and it seems inappropriate that concealment should be included in the list of travel pools. While it would be nice to have another travel power--especially one that could work as half-way between Super Jump and Super Speed--Neither the movement running powers nor Infiltration come close to doing that. This is especially true now that SS has the Momentum Jump mechanic and SJ has DJ. When one claims to have a "travel power" it means one is able to get to missions in a relatively quick timeframe. If Infiltration is supposed to allow anything near that, it fails completely. If adding stealth to Athletic Run is supposed to make it worth it to use up a power choice, I really don't think many will be doing so for the purpose of travel.

 

That being said, I'm wondering if the idea here is to be able to have a run (not travel) power and stealth on with a reduced endurance cost compared to using both before. There's no difference at all as far as power selections. Or is the idea that now you can slot both run and jump in the run power? I'll have to experiment to see if that would turn this "movement" power into a "travel" power. Even if it would, however, I doubt it would be worth it to use slots in that way. Most of the time I doubt anyone puts more than three slots in a travel power. Slotting would likely be EndRed/Run/Jump (1 or 2 each, depending on how many slots you want to devote to it) since the Defense buff would be meaningless. I doubt many people would want to 6 slot a travel power, especially when it still wouldn't let them come close to keeping up with others who have their travel powers one or two slotted.

 

Lastly, as to the defense portion of Infiltration: neither Combat Jumping nor Hover lose their defense buff while in combat. Infiltration has no immob or KB mitigation so why does it lose the defense when the others doesn't lose anything? It also suffers from the suppression that happens during combat so as far as speed/jump, it's no better than CJ. All in all, it makes no sense to spend a power choice on Infiltration when you can get Athletic (etc) Run for free. Again, the exception would be for endurance cost limits.  I can foresee some arguing that since the defense comes from the stealth and the stealth is meaningless once the foe is aware of you, so logically the defense must be lost. If they were to set mechanics to be logical this game would cease to exist, so that argument doesn't hold water. Besides, the defense should be coming from the maneuverability just like it does in the case of CJ.

 

Coyote

 

TL/DR: Infiltration should keep its +Def in combat, just like CJ does and Concealment doesn't deserve to be called a "Travel Pool".

[GM Lines]

10 minutes ago, Troo said:

I'll move along. Seems like some of the concerns and questions were heard. Thanks for that.

 

•  Stealth
  • Stealth radius increased to match the numbers Invisibility had before this patch
    • PvE radius has increased from 36ft to 55ft
    • PvP radius has increased from 389ft to 611ft
  • Out of combat defence increased from 3.5% to 7%

In combat numbers? Even if no change might help anyone not using mids.

 

 

In testing, I'm getting 2.50% in combat unenhanced.

[ScarySai]

Would a slight reduction to base end cost for evasive maneuvers be possible? It's my only issue with the power.

Edited March 14, 2021 by ScarySai

[Jimmy]

6 minutes ago, Shaman Coyote said:

There have been a full 7+ pages of notes since I last read this yesterday so I hope this hasn't been addressed already. Just in case I tossed a tl/dr at the end.

 

Setting aside the stealth portion of the new stealth pool changes, calling it a "travel pool" is very misleading. Infiltration is no different (as described in the patch notes and shown in game) than any of the free movement powers. Those are not nearly on par with the true travel pool powers and it seems inappropriate that concealment should be included in the list of travel pools. While it would be nice to have another travel power--especially one that could work as half-way between Super Jump and Super Speed--Neither the movement running powers nor Infiltration come close to doing that. This is especially true now that SS has the Momentum Jump mechanic and SJ has DJ. When one claims to have a "travel power" it means one is able to get to missions in a relatively quick timeframe. If Infiltration is supposed to allow anything near that, it fails completely. If adding stealth to Athletic Run is supposed to make it worth it to use up a power choice, I really don't think many will be doing so for the purpose of travel.

 

That being said, I'm wondering if the idea here is to be able to have a run (not travel) power and stealth on with a reduced endurance cost compared to using both before. There's no difference at all as far as power selections. Or is the idea that now you can slot both run and jump in the run power? I'll have to experiment to see if that would turn this "movement" power into a "travel" power. Even if it would, however, I doubt it would be worth it to use slots in that way. Most of the time I doubt anyone puts more than three slots in a travel power. Slotting would likely be EndRed/Run/Jump (1 or 2 each, depending on how many slots you want to devote to it) since the Defense buff would be meaningless. I doubt many people would want to 6 slot a travel power, especially when it still wouldn't let them come close to keeping up with others who have their travel powers one or two slotted.

 

Lastly, as to the defense portion of Infiltration: neither Combat Jumping nor Hover lose their defense buff while in combat. Infiltration has no immob or KB mitigation so why does it lose the defense when the others doesn't lose anything? It also suffers from the suppression that happens during combat so as far as speed/jump, it's no better than CJ. All in all, it makes no sense to spend a power choice on Infiltration when you can get Athletic (etc) Run for free. Again, the exception would be for endurance cost limits.  I can foresee some arguing that since the defense comes from the stealth and the stealth is meaningless once the foe is aware of you, so logically the defense must be lost. If they were to set mechanics to be logical this game would cease to exist, so that argument doesn't hold water. Besides, the defense should be coming from the maneuverability just like it does in the case of CJ.

 

Coyote

 

TL/DR: Infiltration should keep its +Def in combat, just like CJ does and Concealment doesn't deserve to be called a "Travel Pool".

 

I think you're missing out the key difference - the speed can be enhanced, and it can be enhanced with universal travel IOs and HOs.

 

 

This is fully slotted Infiltration (Winter's Gift + Blessing of the Zephyr), with 1 IO in each Sprint, Hurdle and Swift. You get to the standard jump speed cap, and aren't far off the standard run speed cap. I'd say that's definitely a worthy middle ground between Super Jump and Super Speed.

[Shaman Coyote]

Just now, Jimmy said:

 

I think you're missing out the key difference - the speed can be enhanced, and it can be enhanced with universal travel IOs and HOs.

 

 

This is fully slotted Infiltration (Winter's Gift + Blessing of the Zephyr), with 1 IO in each Sprint, Hurdle and Swift. You get to the standard jump speed cap, and aren't far off the standard run speed cap. I'd say that's definitely a worthy middle ground between Super Jump and Super Speed.

 

You're going to spend 5 slot choices on your travel power? You must be thinking of a very loose build. I've never had a build with that many slots to spend on a travel power.

 

By the way, I did discuss exactly that point in my post you've quoted. I hadn't experimented with it yet, however, so I'm very glad you've done so. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Shaman Coyote

[Jimmy]

1 minute ago, Shaman Coyote said:

 

You're going to spend 5 slot choices on your travel power? You must be thinking of a very loose build. I've never had a build with that many slots to spend on a travel power.

Well, you can achieve that with two slots using HOs or boosters.

[Shaman Coyote]

Just now, Jimmy said:

Well, you can achieve that with two slots using HOs or boosters.

 

That's a lot of inf to spend on getting to almost where others can do with next to no expense, don't you think? It sounds almost like you're proving my point: Concealment shouldn't be considered on par as a travel pool with the other travel pools. As it stands, Infiltration doesn't have anything to put it in the travel power set league.

 

Please note, I'm not saying it doesn't have it's thematic uses. It's just not worth taking unless you have a very specific reason for it. You can do more by taking CJ and Stealth. At least with that combo you get to keep some reasonable defense and CJ's end cost is negligible. Since Infiltrations suffers from suppression in combat you're getting the same movement and can be slotting for +def. Obviously you'd need some kind of out-of-combat travel power but that's where SJ comes in. Using next to no slots on movement, you've got everything you wanted. It does cost more power choices but you'd save on slots so, as always, it's a give-and-take.

[Jimmy]

Just now, Shaman Coyote said:

That's a lot of inf to spend on getting to almost where others can do with next to no expense, don't you think? It sounds almost like you're proving my point: Concealment shouldn't be considered on par as a travel pool with the other travel pools. As it stands, Infiltration doesn't have anything to put it in the travel power set league.

 

Please note, I'm not saying it doesn't have it's thematic uses. It's just not worth taking unless you have a very specific reason for it. You can do more by taking CJ and Stealth. At least with that combo you get to keep some reasonable defense and CJ's end cost is negligible. Since Infiltrations suffers from suppression in combat you're getting the same movement and can be slotting for +def. Obviously you'd need some kind of out-of-combat travel power but that's where SJ comes in. Using next to no slots on movement, you've got everything you wanted. It does cost more power choices but you'd save on slots so, as always, it's a give-and-take.

I think it's a matter of preference - which is the aim of the game really.

 

The classification of a "Travel Pool" is there simply to allow Infiltration to be picked off the bat without a pre-requisite. Different travel powers have different levels of utility. Fly for example requires a similar amount of slotting to reach a similar speed, but it too has a very high amount of utility.

 

My bet is that Infiltration is actually going to be a very popular pick for those that want a one-and-done travel power which also includes decent utility and slotting potential. It'd be difficult to argue it should go any faster or it'll start stepping on the toes of other travel powers.

 

And speaking of stepping on the toes of other powers... we theoretically will also be adding Freerunning at some point. It obviously will not have a stealth component, and as such will need to between Infiltration, Super Jump and Super Speed, so we've got to leave some room for that.

[Sovera]

56 minutes ago, Bopper said:

If I recall, I believe afterburner costs more to use. 0.65/sec.

 

I will have Evasive on all my squishies. It's a hover blaster's wet dream to move as freely/quickly in combat. Plus the Immob rotection and KB resistance, yes please.

They are different beasts, Bopper. One I use between missions where my endurance costs is only the one of my toggles. When I arrive to my destination I toggle it off and off it remains until I need to head to the next mission.

 

Evasive maneuvers is meant to be used all the time. Not between missions.

[Shaman Coyote]

Just now, Jimmy said:

I think it's a matter of preference - which is the aim of the game really.

 

The classification of a "Travel Pool" is there simply to allow Infiltration to be picked off the bat without a pre-requisite. Different travel powers have different levels of utility. Fly for example requires a similar amount of slotting to reach a similar speed, but it too has a very high amount of utility.

 

My bet is that Infiltration is actually going to be a very popular pick for those that want a one-and-done travel power which also includes decent utility and slotting potential. It'd be difficult to argue it should go any faster or it'll start stepping on the toes of other travel powers.

 

And speaking of stepping on the toes of other powers... we theoretically will also be adding Freerunning at some point. It obviously will not have a stealth component, and as such will need to between Infiltration, Super Jump and Super Speed, so we've got to leave some room for that.

 

That makes perfect sense to me. I'd overlooked the part about travel powers and tier choices. I agree that it will likely be a popular choice, but I doubt it'll be chosen as a travel power, unless the defense is made so it's kept during combat. That would change it from something that will need to be toggled off during combat to conserve endurance (like the other travel powers) to something that can be used as a replacement for CJ and/or Hover.

[Shaman Coyote]

Nope, I take it all back. That last point Jimmy made about the tier selection combined with the slotting options... Yep, I'm a convert. Travel power or not, it's still top shelf and I might be one of those folks who selects it on most of my toons.

 

Thanks, Jimmy!

[Nayeh]

9 hours ago, Nayeh said:

Does Hover and Mystic Flight stack though?

 

[Jimmy]

2 minutes ago, Nayeh said:

 

Yes.

[Wavicle]

6 hours ago, Coldshock said:

With i7p2, does this mean there is no accuracy penalty if shooting while flying (with fly/hover on at the same time)?

There hasn’t been an accuracy penalty to fly in a long long time.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Shaman Coyote said:

That's a lot of inf to spend on getting to almost where others can do with next to no expense, don't you think?

If you don't mind the lack of endurance reduction, you can 2 slot it with +5 Winter and +5 Blessing. That should enhance your run and jump speed by 96% and the cost wouldn't be too crazy.

[Wavicle]

Still looking for an answer on what makes double jump worth it compared to the other travel powers. Is double jump not completely identical to the jump pack? Am I misunderstanding?

[Bopper]

59 minutes ago, Sovera said:

They are different beasts, Bopper. One I use between missions where my endurance costs is only the one of my toggles. When I arrive to my destination I toggle it off and off it remains until I need to head to the next mission.

 

Evasive maneuvers is meant to be used all the time. Not between missions.

It is meant to have use 100% of the time, however you don't need to use it 100% of the time. If you only want to use it for increased speed and to run away, you can keep it off and turn it on when needed (run away or long range travel). I haven't been home this weekend but I will see how using EM as AB compares with AB on live. Maybe late tonight.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Bopper

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Still looking for an answer on what makes double jump worth it compared to the other travel powers. Is double jump not completely identical to the jump pack? Am I misunderstanding?

It is exactly the same. There is maybe appeal to having a graphics-less jump pack for character purposes. Personally, I would like to see a little extra with it, like not being shared cooldown with Jump Pack so that you could chain them...but that's just my opinion with no considerations for if that's balanced.

[arthurh35353]

I'm actually still not very impressed with the changes, especially ones that make you need to respec  (change slots, power picks) to do so. I'm very much not thrilled with Afterburner being a stupid toggle that turns itself off (instead of suppressing). Yeah, I get that numbers are better. And I'll say it slowly again.

 

Numbers aren't how you use the power.

[Starforge]

1 minute ago, arthurh35353 said:

I'm actually still not very impressed with the changes, especially ones that make you need to respec  (change slots, power picks) to do so.

I transferred over my Peacebringer who has a lone slot in Energy Flight with one of the Flight IOs and Quantum Acceleration (The PB version of Afterburner) that also has a lone slot with a LotG 7.5% Recharge IO.

On Beta, those two IOs haven't been changed or removed nor have I needed to respec anything. The LotG IO is now in Quantum Maneuvers (PB version of Evasive Maneuvers). Literally nothing was changed with my build nor will it need to be. I'm just faster now than I was before and have a new version of Quantum Acceleration if I feel like using it.

[Doc_Scorpion]

19 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Still looking for an answer on what makes double jump worth it compared to the other travel powers. Is double jump not completely identical to the jump pack? Am I misunderstanding?

Double Jump isn't a travel power, it's a tray power which enhances Super Jump (which is a travel power).  That being said @Bopper bopped it right square on the nail - my jumpers now have vertical travel and "get the eff away from Dodge" ability on par with flyers, without needing a temp power.  (Though some of that is intrinsic to the new scaling, not due to Double Jump.)  All for free, and having no time limits like the free temp powers.

Otherwise, yeah, it's still Super Jump with all it's disadvantages,  ("What comes up, must come down.  Preferably not in the middle of a mob.")  But it's way cooler and way more useful.

My only wish is that it had a little longer duration or a little shorter cooldown.  (Something closer to 50% duty cycle rather than the current 33%.)

[arthurh35353]

1 minute ago, Starforge said:

I transferred over my Peacebringer who has a lone slot in Energy Flight with one of the Flight IOs and Quantum Acceleration (The PB version of Afterburner) that also has a lone slot with a LotG 7.5% Recharge IO.

On Beta, those two IOs haven't been changed or removed nor have I needed to respec anything. The LotG IO is now in Quantum Maneuvers (PB version of Evasive Maneuvers). Literally nothing was changed with my build nor will it need to be. I'm just faster now than I was before and have a new version of Quantum Acceleration if I feel like using it.

And you just proved you can cherry pick and not respond to that it is now functionally different and all you care about is numbers.

 

To *REMOVE* evasive (because I got it for the 'speed boots' I now need to respec my level 50s with heavy IO builds and change power choices. And I no longer have a speed boost that is on all the time for long distance travel.

 

Nowhere did I mention a single number.