Focused Feedback: Power Changes (Release Candidates)

[macskull]

30 minutes ago, schrodingercat said:

Hello! This may have been reported, but I can't see it. With the movement changes, I figured it needed to be checked.

 

Rooted applies a movement debuff to the user ONLY when Granite armor is toggled on.

First image: Rooted + Granite armor

Second image: just rooted

 

None of the other movement power changes work in unexpected ways with the powers tested.

The Rooted movement changes only apply while not running Granite, which seems to have been omitted from the patch notes.

[Elthenar]

When you are tinkering with pet mechanics, would it be possible to buff henchmen max flight speed to match that of the player? They still have the old 58 mph cap, which makes the new Group Fly still rather sad. A MM pet can hit that cap with base, unenhanced group fly.

[Cinnder]

If a character already has Recharge slotted in Rest, what happens when this release goes live?

[Wavicle]

19 hours ago, ExeErdna said:

RoP is Clarion and Barrier all before lv 20

That right there is why it got nerfed.

[Dahkness]

6 hours ago, Wavicle said:

That right there is why it got nerfed.

That’s a lazy reason to nerf something. They can always change the lvl when you can unlock things. I’d be fine with picking this up at lvl 35+. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Dahkness

[arcane]

32 minutes ago, Dahkness said:

That’s a lazy reason to nerf something. They can always change the lvl when you can unlock things. I’d be fine with picking this up at lvl 35+. 

It wasn’t nerfed solely because of the level it was available at. You misread that. It was nerfed because it was overtuned for a pool power in terms of benefit vs uptime.

[Linea]

Quote

I would rather see Rune balanced with slightly lower magnitudes, but retaining the 90s duration.

• resists 26 max on a defender, instead of 39.
• Status 6 instead of 10
• or Scaling Status 4:  Status 10 for 20s, followed by Status 4 for for the entire duration of 90s 

 

[scottocamp]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

It wasn’t nerfed solely because of the level it was available at. You misread that. It was nerfed because it was overtuned for a pool power in terms of benefit vs uptime.

 

Again - where is the evidence to support this?  How many level 50 builds even make use of RoP?  How is RoP "overtuned" in comparison to Hasten, Tough, Weave, Fold Space, Tactics, etc?  Are more players choosing to use RoP than choosing to use Tactics or Tough?  Some (any) support for your assertion would be helpful.

 

It is difficult to give thoughtful feedback when so little is presented for why this nerf is occurring.

[Apparition]

2 minutes ago, scottocamp said:

 

Again - where is the evidence to support this?  How many level 50 builds even make use of RoP?  How is RoP "overtuned" in comparison to Hasten, Tough, Weave, Fold Space, Tactics, etc?  Are more players choosing to use RoP than choosing to use Tactics or Tough?  Some (any) support for your assertion would be helpful.

 

It is difficult to give thoughtful feedback when so little is presented for why this nerf is occurring.

The main justification is that Rune of Protection is a power available at level 20 that is just as good as Melee Core Hybrid, an Incarnate ability.  However, I think @Linea has a better suggestion to deal with that.

[scottocamp]

8 minutes ago, Apparition said:

The main justification is that Rune of Protection is a power available at level 20 that is just as good as Melee Core Hybrid, an Incarnate ability.  However, I think @Linea has a better suggestion to deal with that.

 

That is not really true.  Melee Core Hybrid is layered on top of your normal 24 powers.  It also provides a substantial regeneration buff.  RoP requires you to commit 3 of your 24 base powers to be able to incorporate RoP into your build.   There are *many* combinations of 3 primary, secondary, epic and pool powers that would be functionally equivalent to a single incarnate power.   To be fair - you are not simply comparing RoP to Melee Core Hybrid.  You are comparing giving up three powers to be able to obtain an equivalency to Melee Core Hybrid.

 

Which is why it is important to see how many level 50 builds even make use of RoP.  That would be a more accurate method to determine if the power is over-tuned.  How many level 50 builds use Weave or Tactics compared to RoP?

 

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, scottocamp said:

That is not really true.  Melee Core Hybrid is layered on top of your normal 24 powers.  It also provides a substantial regeneration buff.  RoP requires you to commit 3 of your 24 base powers to be able to incorporate RoP into your build.   There are *many* combinations of 3 primary, secondary, epic and pool powers that would be functionally equivalent to a single incarnate power.   To be fair - you are not simply comparing RoP to Melee Core Hybrid.  You are comparing giving up three powers to be able to obtain an equivalency to Melee Core Hybrid.

 

Which is why it is important to see how many level 50 builds even make use of RoP.  That would be a more accurate method to determine if the power is over-tuned.  How many level 50 builds use Weave or Tactics compared to RoP?

 

"Giving up up three powers" is inaccurate. Those are called build choices. Either way, those powers are still in the tray. 

 

I think your assumption that any number of builds using RoP will provide evidence to support the intended changes is false. Whether or not one player or EVERY player used the power, the HC found it needed balanced in line with other pool powers. You may need this information to form your own opinion, but it isn't needed to justify a power change. My understanding of the reason for this thread is to determine if the implementation of this change caused unintended consequences, created unfair advantages, or makes the game crash or unplayable. 

[siolfir]

8 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

My understanding of the reason for this thread is to determine if the implementation of this change caused unintended consequences, created unfair advantages, or makes the game crash or unplayable. 

Correct. And to provide feedback, which has been done. It's also explicitly not to try to change others' opinions.

Edited March 22, 2021 by siolfir

[scottocamp]

33 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

"Giving up up three powers" is inaccurate. Those are called build choices. Either way, those powers are still in the tray. 

 

I think your assumption that any number of builds using RoP will provide evidence to support the intended changes is false. Whether or not one player or EVERY player used the power, the HC found it needed balanced in line with other pool powers. You may need this information to form your own opinion, but it isn't needed to justify a power change. My understanding of the reason for this thread is to determine if the implementation of this change caused unintended consequences, created unfair advantages, or makes the game crash or unplayable. 

 How then do you "balance" against other pool powers if not by comparing usage of those powers?  Would you really nerf a power that no one actually chooses to use?  If EVERY player uses a particular pool power, would that not be some indication it was over-powered?  What metrics are you using to balance pool powers?

 

The actual reality of incorporating RoP into a build means dedicating 3 of 24 powers (which generally involves a travel power, an ally buff and RoP) to gain access to a capability roughly similar to an incarnate power.  The fact that those 3 power choices could *easily* be used in other ways to also obtain equivalency to an incarnate power *should* make a difference - since the justification apparently being offered to nerf this power is that it offers equivalency to an incarnate power.   If you can obtain similar if not better results without incorporating RoP into your build, then that is strong evidence RoP is not over-tuned.

 

This does seem like an "unfair advantage" situation.  You are allowing AT's that don't need mez protection continued access to powers like Weave, Tactics and Hasten (pool powers that seem fundamentally as strong and certainly more popular than RoP) while reducing access to mez protection for AT's that depend on RoP.  The justifications for that change don't seem very convincing to me.

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

40 minutes ago, scottocamp said:

The justifications for that change don't seem very convincing to me.

You don't need to be convinced. This is a thread to test the changes and provide feedback. 

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Glacier Peak
Edit for feedback title of thread

[Mezmera]

When HC popped up I remade my dom from live and was playing with the same ol' powers I used to.  I team with some holdovers from the secret server and one was hinting I should pick up RoP for my characters.  I was like I'm permadom what do I need with an anti mez/resistance power, a flight travel and a proc mule ally buff.   Months later I ended up seeing what it was all about and I'll be damned if 30% resistance to all isn't just fantastic to have.  

 

I think part of why more people don't take these strong Origin pool powers is because they have little familiarity with them since they weren't live.  I do think those pools should be a bit better than the rest of the regular pools since you can only take one of them.  60s seems okay to me but 90s is a lot better.  Tuning them down likely won't see more people using these pools though.  

Edited March 22, 2021 by Mezmera

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Mezmera said:

When HC popped up I remade my dom from live and was playing with the same ol' powers I used to.  I team with some holdovers from the secret server and one was hinting I should pick up RoP for my characters.  I was like I'm permadom what do I need with an anti mez/resistance power, a flight travel and a proc mule ally buff.   Months later I ended up seeing what it was all about and I'll be damned if 30% resistance to all isn't just fantastic to have.  

 

I think part of why more people don't take these strong Origin pool powers is because they have little familiarity with them since they weren't live.  I do think those pools should be a bit better than the rest of the regular pools since you can only take one of them.  60s seems okay to me but 90s is a lot better.  Tuning them down likely won't see more people using these pools though.  

 

I think this right here is the question: How much do want folks taking any pool power with or instead of a regular primary secondary power? For me I'll say that if a primary or secondary power is better overall than any pool power, there needs to be an extreme case where I would take the pool power.

 

If the pool power is demonstrably worse and isn't worth another power pic I'm not taking them. 

 

I guess you can continue to make them as niche powers for the few folks that would take them for flavor, but then I guess that's a question if that's a good use of dev time. /shrug.

Edited March 22, 2021 by golstat2003

[arcane]

I’m not sure we should be treating things like Hasten as points of comparison for balance. I think the fact the devs have left that one alone has a little more to do with the mass mutiny that would result.

[golstat2003]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’m not sure we should be treating things like Hasten as points of comparison for balance. I think the fact the devs have left that one alone has a little more to do with the mass mutiny that would result.

 

There's a vast difference between Hasten and other pool powers that almost no one takes. I'm sure there is middle ground that can be found somewhere in there.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Shortening the duration on rune of protection would probably wreck multiple builds for quite a few players (I'm definitely in that camp, as two of my characters would probably move to the "wrecked" pile if rune duration is nerfed). Also, the result would be a smaller constellation of builds that are endgame viable, rather than an expansion of them. 

 

Please consider bumping similar pool powers up to 90 seconds duration instead of nerfing rune of protection. Also, as pointed out by others, make T9 powers more worthwhile to take, instead of nerfing RoP's duration. 

 

Hasten and the fighting pool are bigger constraints on build diversity. Especially hasten. 

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

 

I think this right here is the question: How much do want folks taking any pool power with or instead of a regular primary secondary power? For me I'll say that if a primary or secondary power is better overall than any pool power, there needs to be an extreme case where I would take the pool power.

 

If the pool power is demonstrably worse and isn't worth another power pic I'm not taking them. 

 

I guess you can continue to make them as niche powers for the few folks that would take them for flavor, but then I guess that's a question if that's a good use of dev time. /shrug.

 

To me it seems the design intent from the original devs was that with these being locked so that you could only take the one origin specific to you that these were intended to be more of a mini secondary that anyone with that origin could benefit from.  It would also be a move to freshen up some of your old characters by giving them some new toys to play with.  I think pool powers in general are a good idea, everyone has access to them and some can fit in something that may be lacking from your regular powers.  

 

I don't have a problem with pool powers being good since everyone can access them.  I'd think as someone else is pointing out that maybe powers in your primary or secondary being crap are more of an indictment against that powerset than the pools.  Take shield for instance, the t9 is nice with a small manageable crash when it wears off, now look at unstoppable, yeah its mad resists but if you get caught when that wears off you're in trouble so most just break glass in case of emergency for this one.  

[Doomrider]

RE: The duration change to RoP.

2 things will likely result from this change.

1). Less people will take and utilize this power now due in part to the already heavy pre-requisite cost(s) comparative to the uptime RoP will have, which was far from perma to begin with.

2). People who wanted mez protection before incarnate level will just lean harder on Defense amplifiers. I can only speak for myself, but I'd prefer people take actual powers instead of just abusing temps.

I wish the other Sorcery powers were even a little bit useful, but sadly they are not. The set as a whole is very lack lustre. With RoP taking a hit, I don't see a lot of point this power pool as a whole. If RoP was too OP, the values it granted should have been looked at, not it's duration.

If the status quo is to stay the same regarding power pool powers, don't be surprised when many
people just continue to stick to the same old speed/fighting/leadership/x as their go-to power pools. 
 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

31 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

...

If the status quo is to stay the same regarding power pool powers, don't be surprised when many
people just continue to stick to the same old speed/fighting/leadership/x as their go-to power pools. 
 

 

This is an insightful and almost certainly an accurate prediction. 

 

It would seem a key rationale for nerfing RoP is to equalize the duration of similar skills across pool powers. But, a focus on that "micro" objective will probably have perverse effects when looking at bigger picture objectives, such as promoting build diversity. 

 

Consider making more power pools worthwhile to select beyond the "big three" (speed, fighting, leadership) mentioned by Doomrider above, rather than less. 

[ForeverLaxx]

I've already expressed my opinion on the RoP change so I won't repeat it here, but if my involvement in other Focused Feedback threads is any indication, this change is going to go through whether we want it or not. Even the nerfs to Nin (and now Sentinel Bio) mobility, which were taken out of the previous major update, were brought back in conjunction with Travel Power adjustments. The changes to Blaster secondary powers had a similar back-and-forth and the changes were pushed live as-is anyway.

 

I've learned that when the devs want to nerf something, it's getting nerfed, especially if no changes were made between builds. They've already had extensive internal discussions with themselves and select community individuals before we even get to see what hits the beta server. Once on the beta server, they're only interested in seeing if it breaks something or doesn't work the way they intended it to.

 

I don't expect underpowered Pool Powers to get changed in any meaningful way. RoP being the only decent T5 option amongst its peers, and still being extremely niche, isn't going to stop them from nerfing it. Trying to compromise the nerf to get a small boost to the "not good enough" buddy known as Unleash Potential likely isn't going to work either. We're free to express our dislike of this change, but it's changing whether we like it or not.

Edited March 22, 2021 by ForeverLaxx

[Sovera]

59 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

RE: The duration change to RoP.

2 things will likely result from this change.

1). Less people will take and utilize this power now due in part to the already heavy pre-requisite cost(s) comparative to the uptime RoP will have, which was far from perma to begin with.

2). People who wanted mez protection before incarnate level will just lean harder on Defense amplifiers. I can only speak for myself, but I'd prefer people take actual powers instead of just abusing temps.

I wish the other Sorcery powers were even a little bit useful, but sadly they are not. The set as a whole is very lack lustre. With RoP taking a hit, I don't see a lot of point this power pool as a whole. If RoP was too OP, the values it granted should have been looked at, not it's duration.

If the status quo is to stay the same regarding power pool powers, don't be surprised when many
people just continue to stick to the same old speed/fighting/leadership/x as their go-to power pools. 
 

 

The effort at making pool powers useless makes so people do not pick them because they are useless. Manpower, code hours, etc, all gone to waste. I can imagine the statistics and devs sipping coffee as they look over them:

 

Dev1: 'Hmm, 20% of the players were using RoP. It dropped to 5%.'

Dev2: 'Our job is done.'

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Doomrider said:

If the status quo is to stay the same regarding power pool powers, don't be surprised when many
people just continue to stick to the same old speed/fighting/leadership/x as their go-to power pools. 
 

This kind of trend happens in most games because powergamers tend to settle somewhere and stay there as far as power choice/build style. I wouldn’t automatically assume that says a lot about the quality of the other pool powers.

 

Anywho, I think the people seeking to protest the nerf would do better if they would bring data instead of obvious hyperbole. RoP is “useless”? The change “wrecks builds”? Those statements are so self evidently false they work against your cause.

Edited March 22, 2021 by arcane