New Notoriety Option: No Enhancement Set Bonuses

[Blackfeather]

Hello all, and thanks for visiting this thread! Before I dive into how this proposal might be implemented, I'd like to go over a few points about why I think it's something that might be desirable to have in the first place, by looking at some assumptions about the game's design, along with some conclusions drawn from them. If you're already sold on the idea, skip right to the bottom where I highlight the details about this!

 

Core Assumptions

 

1. CoX is Balanced Around SOs

I don't think this is a controversial statement - indeed, @Galaxy Brain's excellent thread on game balance takes this for granted, and @Captain Powerhouse outright says so here. By limiting the ways a player's powers can be enhanced via enhancement diversification, the game sets in numerous constraints to their capabilities. Under this balance, it's impossible for any one player to permanently maximise their defenses or resistances - naturally, there are some team compositions that can reach such values trivially, but collective effort is still required to do so. Breach this balance, and the game generally becomes much easier (some exceptions notwithstanding).

 

2. As Survivability Increases, Utility Powers Lose Purpose

This is fairly self explanatory - if there is a lower need to focus on not being defeated, then powers that help assist with that - whether that comes in the form of locking enemies down, drawing aggro, debuffing enemies, or healing damage - will naturally decrease in value. As a corollary to this, a player's ability to deal (or indirectly facilitate) damage becomes more valuable as survivability goes up; all other gameplay goals are achieved.

 

Of course, if one could hypothetically deal enough damage to outright defeat enemies before facing any retaliation, one's survivability also skyrockets, but that's usually not the case, and it's easily changed if one wishes it: higher notoriety levels means tougher enemies, making them less susceptible to being immediately mowed down.

 

3. IO Set Bonuses Dramatically Increase Survivability

This is tied into the way in which the game is balanced - many IOs provide enhancement set bonuses that increase a player's defenses or resistances, upping their baseline survivability by sometimes enormous amounts when correctly built. As a result, a player with the right IO enhancements is dramatically more survivable than a player just using SO enhancements.

 

Note that I'm excluding proc enhancements from this assumption - their effect on game balance is comparatively small:

• Includes things like Numina's Convalescence: Regeneration/Recovery and Celerity: Stealth
• Does not include things like Steadfast Protection: Resistance/Defense

 

I make the assumption that the largest benefit that set bonuses provide to players is increased survivability (and to a lesser extent for some archetypes/builds, recharge). As such, procs don't really factor into this.

 

4. IOs Are Accessible and Fun!

And I say this as somebody who's made a great deal of builds - constructing an unkillable machine of a character, or some off the wall concept build that works past the inherent limitations of a powerset feels great. Even with all these previous assumptions, I'd never want to go back. At least permanently - and this is where my proposal comes in.

 

Notoriety Option: No Set Bonuses

 

Given these above points, I'm proposing a new Notoriety setting that provides players with a method of playing CoX within the constraints it was balanced around. This would come in the form of suppressing player set bonuses while inside a mission, leaving enhancement values and procs intact.

 

I expand upon what this entails in this post. Check it out if you want some clarification!

 

The reason for preserving proc enhancements as they are is twofold:

• As mentioned before, they negligibly affect game balance compared to set bonuses
• Some procs are essential to a player's playstyle, e.g. Stalker's Guile and Assassin's Mark

 

This option is meant to provide players with additional challenge on top of what the Notoriety system currently has, while minimally bothering others who are satisfied with the game's current difficulty. This way, regardless of the kinds of mobs one decides to face, players can always decide whether or not they wish to feel somewhat challenged - even enemy groups with fairly mundane powers can be a problem if enough of them manage to land them.

 

As an added benefit, such a Notoriety option would be a great way of testing out story arcs on characters with IO builds, to make sure that they're not too difficult (i.e. achievable with SO slotting), as expanded upon in this post.

 

Higher levels and larger mobs can only go so far, and doesn't really scale well to players whose survivability is far higher than SOs allow for. There isn't much difference to fighting a +0 enemy and a +4 enemy if they both have a very low likelihood of hitting one's character, outside of the time it takes to defeat them.

 

Currently, Task Forces do have an option to make enhancements have no effect at all, but this is inadequate for a few reasons:

• This significantly pushes the game balance away from players, and in a frustrating way - missing is not fun
• This does not apply to regular contact/door missions, meaning that this is an option that is not always available to players

 

So now I'm sounding off to the forums - what do you all think about introducing a new notoriety option to disable IO set bonuses? Is this something that would appeal to you? Would you implement the proposal differently? Have something radical or off the wall? As always, I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

 

Thanks for reading through this, and I'll see you all in the comments thread!

Edited March 22, 2021 by Blackfeather
This option would be great for testing out new story arcs!

[Blackfeather]

Going to give @Solarverse a ping - hey there! I saw your post about finding the game a bit too easy for your liking here. Would definitely be interested in hearing your thoughts on this proposal, along with any ideas of your own about game balance, and so on. Hope you like it! If not, well, apologies for the ping in advance. 😅

[Alchemystic]

Gotta say, I enjoy the idea of somebody proposing a difficulty tweak that's entirely optional instead of insisting the game has to function one way or another, it's a breath of fresh air.

 

I agree with your point that the game was built entirely around SOs, and has been maintained in such a way that it can be continued to be played like that. However, I think content such as trials, task forces and incarnate level arcs should be exempt from this, since they have their own set of challenges that usually require you to be at your best in order to tackle them. (I'm sure theres exceptions, like low level TFs, but by then you wouldn't be fully built anyway).

 

But, overall I think it's a great way to introduce challenge to the game, where previously having to run at lower levels was the only way to reclaim that sort of experience. (that, or run AEs specifically designed to be difficult).

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Tyrannical

[Haijinx]

Honestly it feels like people are intentionally obtuse on this topic.

[arcane]

Would have to be extremely well advertised and perhaps with multiple prompts to be an acceptable change. Since players joining a team aren’t typically immediately made aware of notoriety settings and most won’t want to just throw away their earned set bonuses.

[Blackfeather]

5 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

Gotta say, I enjoy the idea of somebody proposing a difficulty tweak that's entirely optional instead of insisting the game has to function one way or another, it's a breath of fresh air.

 

I agree with your point that the game was built entirely around SOs, and has been maintained in such a way that it can be continued to be played like that. However, I think content such as trials, task forces and incarnate level arcs should be exempt from this, since they have their own set of challenges that usually require you to be at your best in order to tackle them. (I'm sure theres exceptions, like low level TFs, but by then you wouldn't be fully built anyway).

 

But, overall I think it's a great way to introduce challenge to the game, where previously having to run at lower levels was the only way to reclaim that sort of experience. (that, or run AEs specifically designed to be difficult).

 

 

Hey there, Tyrannical! I think one thing that's really neat about this game is how much choice it has, and IOs are a part of that. Frankly, enhancement slotting without them would be extremely boring! The huge amount of flexibility that it provides with character builds makes for a ton of fun.

 

I'll actually go further than that - the game was and is currently balanced around SOs, as mentioned in @Captain Powerhouse's post here. One example of that being put into practice now is in @Piecemeal's story arcs, which have been carefully tuned down as time has gone by. Per this post, they've been testing it using SOs.

 

In fact, I'd even say that this proposed notoriety option might even be a great boon for testing out such story arcs in the future, to see whether or not they're too difficult, while also letting players who enjoy IO builds (like me) still stick with them!

 

At the very least, I don't see why this option wouldn't be something to provide for players regardless of the content they want to try out: it'd likely provide them with another kind of challenge if they so wish it, so I wouldn't want to see it being arbitrarily restricted depending on the things they want to run.

 

And finally, I'm glad to hear you like the sound of it! This Notoriety option was meant to try and help players who want an extra bit of challenge not need to actively seek it out to do so (and there's definitely some very difficult content out there) - a few clicks, and they'll be off!

[Blackfeather]

8 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Honestly it feels like people are intentionally obtuse on this topic.

 

Might I have a few links to some of those posts/users? I'd be glad to direct them to this suggestion, if they're interested in more of a challenge - they might like it, and I'd be happy to hear their thoughts on this proposal.

[Doomguide2005]

For clarity, Global procs would shut off, procs/proc120's would not?

[Greycat]

17 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

I agree with your point that the game was built entirely around SOs, and has been maintained in such a way that it can be continued to be played like that. However, I think content such as trials, task forces and incarnate level arcs should be exempt from this, since they have their own set of challenges that usually require you to be at your best in order to tackle them. (I'm sure theres exceptions, like low level TFs, but by then you wouldn't be fully built anyway).

 

 

I'd mostly disagree. Incarnate arcs, yes - they're post IO content. Task forces and trials though? Most of them predate IOs, and none of them require them or the bonuses involved, so there's really no reason to exclude them - they just need to be *advertised* that it's a "no set bonus" run.

 

Given IO values themselves can be stronger than SOs, I think people would still find it easier, just 'not as' easy.

 

And yeah, I like the idea.

[Voltak]

17 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

Gotta say, I enjoy the idea of somebody proposing a difficulty tweak that's entirely optional instead of insisting the game has to function one way or another, it's a breath of fresh air.

 

I agree with your point that the game was built entirely around SOs, and has been maintained in such a way that it can be continued to be played like that. However, I think content such as trials, task forces and incarnate level arcs should be exempt from this, since they have their own set of challenges that usually require you to be at your best in order to tackle them. (I'm sure theres exceptions, like low level TFs, but by then you wouldn't be fully built anyway).

 

But, overall I think it's a great way to introduce challenge to the game, where previously having to run at lower levels was the only way to reclaim that sort of experience. (that, or run AEs specifically designed to be difficult).

 

It is not debatable that the game WAS, emphasis on WAS, created initially and balanced initially around SOs. 

The game in the present is NOT being balanced, nerfed, buffed, in PVP, nor PVE, around SOs. 

So many changes are being done, nerfs being done and so on, around or about IOs.  

The list of evidence is enormous. I won't bother any of you nor take the time to list them all, but one of the latest is the tank changes where the developer even mentions many times how the changes were done with IOs in mind. 

I like the idea being proposed but I have to say the fact, the game presently is not being handled or managed with SOs in mind, or, not with SOs in mind only.  

IOs play a HUGE role in nerfs or changes to builds or powers and so on. 

[Blackfeather]

On 3/22/2021 at 4:15 PM, Doomguide2005 said:

For clarity, Global procs would shut off, procs/proc120's would not?

 

No worries! The terminology I'm using is from the Enhancement Sets wiki article. More precisely, this part:

 

Quote

The meaning of the trailing icons in some of the elements is:

 

Unique	Only one of this enhancement may be slotted on a character.
Procedure (Proc)	Random chance of effect.
Global	Enhancement gives a global effect on the character.

 

Basically, any enhancement that falls under  and not  would function as normal under this new Notoriety option. For example:

•   Panacea: Chance for +Hit Points/Endurance would work as normal
•  Shield Wall: Teleportation Protection, +Res(All) would be suppressed

Generally,  enhancements don't really contribute to shifting a player's survivability that much, and are often relied upon in the Health and Stamina pools of most IO builds (Numina's/Miracle/Shifter/etc.) - if they were disabled, it'd put such players at a large disadvantage, being easily sapped of their endurance.

 

That's not something that I'd be a fan of, especially given that I'm an avid creator of IO builds myself. There's challenge in this Notoriety option, but only to the level up to where the game is balanced around (or the closest approximation thereof), that is to say, SO values, which I think proc enhancements generally fall under or close enough around.

 

Thanks for asking for some clarification! If you've got any thoughts on this now that it's hopefully cleared up, please feel free to sound them out. 😄

Edited July 13, 2022 by Blackfeather

[Voltak]

11 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

 

Might I have a few links to some of those posts/users? I'd be glad to direct them to this suggestion, if they're interested in more of a challenge - they might like it, and I'd be happy to hear their thoughts on this proposal.

I was thinking and this occurred -->

Why is this even being suggested for the Devs to step in and grant YOU the ability to choose this?

Right now you can play the game with no IOs.   

If you really wanted that, and one of the reasons you used was that in your mind the game is not balanced towards IOs, then play with no IOs.  

You have the ability to have several builds in your toon 

One of the builds can be no IOs or no set bonuses 


Simply , change to the build you want with no set bonuses and you are done

Or is it that you want your team mates to play with NO IO set bonuses 

With a game that had very little resources, this option of YOU making one of your builds with no IO set bonuses and having the Dev put time and effort to make this happen, but I am sorry, you can play the game with no set bonuses and you are done with the issue. 

You have three builds to choose from in your character.  Why not just switch to the one you have no IO set bonuses?

If @Solarverse  finds the game too easy, just play the way we, the old school players who were here since the beginning, play like we did -- play with only Dual Origins and Single Origin enhancements.   

Just do that, then come back to the forum and tell us how many builds were "too easy" to solo with and how many were not "too easy" to solo with only SOs or DOs.  

I played the game a whole lot when no IOs were out

I already know the kind of experience it was.  

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, Voltak said:

I was thinking and this occurred -->

Why is this even being suggested for the Devs to step in and grant YOU the ability to choose this?

Right now you can play the game with no IOs.   

If you really wanted that, and one of the reasons you used was that in your mind the game is not balanced towards IOs, then play with no IOs.  

 

 

 

This has become a tired old argument for some of us that it gets to the point that we kind of get tired of explaining it. It doesn't matter anyway because no matter what the explanation is, it's never good enough. So instead of arguing the issue, I simply left the game...for the most part.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Voltak said:

If @Solarverse  finds the game too easy, just play the way we, the old school players who were here since the beginning, play like we did -- play with only Dual Origins and Single Origin enhancements.   

 

 

 

Same as above, but with this I think we all know that unless you have a whole group of people who can all play at the same times who are all willing to play with SO's only, that's going to be an issue. I can see it now... "Hey Solarverse, I noticed you don't have any set bonuses in your build, we are going to have to kick you from the TF run, man...we want everybody to be able to contribute, and you just aren't going to be able to be a very good contribution to the team if you aren't built."

It sure sounded good on paper, but the reality would be very much different than what you have on paper.

My answer to the problem was simple...stop playing.

[Voltak]

3 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

This has become a tired old argument for some of us that it gets to the point that we kind of get tired of explaining it. It doesn't matter anyway because no matter what the explanation is, it's never good enough. So instead of arguing the issue, I simply left the game...for the most part.

 

 

 

 

Same as above, but with this I think we all know that unless you have a whole group of people who can all play at the same times who are all willing to play with SO's only, that's going to be an issue. I can see it now... "Hey Solarverse, I noticed you don't have any set bonuses in your build, we are going to have to kick you from the TF run, man...we want everybody to be able to contribute, and you just aren't going to be able to be a very good contribution to the team if you aren't built."

It sure sounded good on paper, but the reality would be very much different than what you have on paper.

My answer to the problem was simple...stop playing.

I have teamed up with soooo many players with no IO set bonuses.  

I never kicked them from any TF or teams or missions, and so on. 

Is the problem some players?  It could be. 


Repeat Offenders is a network of players that I belong too. 

We play mostly support toons. 

With a team like ours it's never going to be an issue that any player does not have any IOs.  

While leveling up, no IOs will never be an issue. 

I can see what you are saying about doing PUGs in incarnate trials.  

I can certainly feel it. 

Keep in mind those trials are very challenging to those who have no incarnates as well, some of them will only be a smooth ride until some higher level incarnates are equipped. 

Playing with a team made up of support toons is a great way to play and never think of IOs. 

Repeat Offenders started off as a group of all Defenders teaming.  

With all the Kinetics, Empathy, Sonics, Force Fields, and so on....    with all that in the team, we could buff a player more than sets of IOs could ever buff that player. 

Two kin defenders, two Rads, ABs and the list goes on and who needs IOs and for what ??  


You don't even need a travel power with the kins in the team.   

I can go on and on .   

[Grouchybeast]

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Same as above, but with this I think we all know that unless you have a whole group of people who can all play at the same times who are all willing to play with SO's only, that's going to be an issue. I can see it now... "Hey Solarverse, I noticed you don't have any set bonuses in your build, we are going to have to kick you from the TF run, man...we want everybody to be able to contribute, and you just aren't going to be able to be a very good contribution to the team if you aren't built."

 

Did you actually try playing with SOs only, or did you just assume this would happen?  Because I enjoy looking at people's bios while I'm waiting for TFs to start, and I see plenty of people with no bonuses and yet I've never seen anyone be kicked off a TF for it.  I never saw it happen on live, either, although I admit I did hear rumours that it happened on Freedom (but then all rumours of truly stupid behaviour seemed to start with 'One time when I joined a team on Freedumb...'.)  And anyone who thinks that CoX actually needs set bonuses is probably not someone you want to be teaming with anyway, because they don't understand the game at all.

 

(I spent a while running around on a defender with literally nothing slotted at all until about level 30, because I kept logging in to join a TF with her, then needing to log out straight afterwards and never remembering to make her a build.  No one ever seemed to notice.)

[Solarverse]

19 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

 

Did you actually try playing with SOs only, or did you just assume this would happen?  Because I enjoy looking at people's bios while I'm waiting for TFs to start, and I see plenty of people with no bonuses and yet I've never seen anyone be kicked off a TF for it.  I never saw it happen on live, either, although I admit I did hear rumours that it happened on Freedom (but then all rumours of truly stupid behaviour seemed to start with 'One time when I joined a team on Freedumb...'.)  And anyone who thinks that CoX actually needs set bonuses is probably not someone you want to be teaming with anyway, because they don't understand the game at all.

 

(I spent a while running around on a defender with literally nothing slotted at all until about level 30, because I kept logging in to join a TF with her, then needing to log out straight afterwards and never remembering to make her a build.  No one ever seemed to notice.)

 

It was a prediction. That is just one point out of a thousand that I could make though. What good does it to me to build SO's only when a majority of players are running tight builds that obliterate anything they touch with little to no effort? If I am the only person on the team running SOs only to run ALL content, it's just not the same....and it never will be the same again. Power creep has simply changed the game way too much for me to enjoy it. There are many reasons why I stopped playing, I could write a book on it, and it has nothing to do with burnout and everything to do with the way the game has become a huge upside-down from what it was when it came out. I'm not here to change anything though, which was why I respectfully simply stopped playing. It's just not the City of Heroes that I enjoyed...that game is long gone and this server will never be that. I seriously doubt a server will ever come to be that will be the type of City of Heroes that I preferred, so then there is that.

[Andreah]

I haven't seen much, if any, "build intolerance" lately. Perhaps it's still out there. I've been on lots of regular content with lower levels, un-set-ted higher levels, and even unslotted levels, and no one seems to care. So long as the team lead is willing to drop off +4/x8when the team isn't up to it, it's all been good. 

 

I am interested in new options for difficulty, and think the game could benefit from the one proposed here, overall. 

 

One might even look at the entire set of Oro challenge settings, and ask if they might be applied to regular content too. There might need to be badges, enhanced drops, or special rewards earned from them, but it could add some spice and unique experiences for those who wish to do them.

 

I've also been mulling over some ideas for enhanced optional difficulty myself, and may post them in due course.

[Doomguide2005]

6 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

 

No worries! The terminology I'm using is from the Enhancement Sets wiki article. More precisely, this part:

 

 

Basically, any enhancement that falls under and not  would function as normal under this new Notoriety option. For example:

•  Panacea: Chance for +Hit Points/Endurance would work as normal
•  Shield Wall: Teleportation Protection, +Res(All) would be suppressed

Generally,  enhancements don't really contribute to shifting a player's survivability that much, and are often relied upon in the Health and Stamina pools of most IO builds (Numina's/Miracle/Shifter/etc.) - if they were disabled, it'd put such players at a large disadvantage, being easily sapped of their endurance.

 

That's not something that I'd be a fan of, especially given that I'm an avid creator of IO builds myself. There's challenge in this Notoriety option, but only to the level up to where the game is balanced around (or the closest approximation thereof), that is to say, SO values, which I think proc enhancements generally fall under or close enough around.

 

Thanks for asking for some clarification! If you've got any thoughts on this now that it's hopefully cleared up, please feel free to sound them out. 😄

Thanks, that's what I thought you intended as globals are treated like set bonuses and the others are not.  Seems like an idea worth pursuing, an intermediate difficultly between no enhancements and all things IO in use.

[JAMMan0000]

I can relate to this. Once getting to 50 and incarnates, teams are so overpowered, its not fun any more. Then my 50 pretty much just gets shelved.

I often find myself, looking for lower level teams to join, just I/we are handicapped enough that there is a little bit of a challenge and some satisfaction from teaming. 

For me most of my issues could be resolved if there was just a Notoriety option to set my level to any level below my 'natural' level, and use all of the existing standard exemping rules to handicap my powers available, IO scaling, set bonuses, etc. That way;

- If I don't want to play with Incarnates, I could just set my level to 44, get exempted down to 44, recruit my team (all exempted down to 43) and do regular PI level content.

- If I want to do earlier out leveled content missed previously, I just set my level to the appropriate level, get exempted down, recruit my team and go for it. 

 

Being able to set our level would increase our access to content and allow us to control difficulty to keep the fun and challenging at any level.

[Greycat]

6 hours ago, Voltak said:

I was thinking and this occurred -->

Why is this even being suggested for the Devs to step in and grant YOU the ability to choose this?

 

Because this might be an occasional "this would be fun" experience that doesn't require an entire second build.

 

Not sure why you need that explained.

[Blackfeather]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

Because this might be an occasional "this would be fun" experience that doesn't require an entire second build.

 

Not sure why you need that explained.

 

...this may be very slightly off topic, but I have to say, I really like your signature! 🥰

[Voltak]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

Because this might be an occasional "this would be fun" experience that doesn't require an entire second build.

 

Not sure why you need that explained.

 

"Entire second build" ....   

As if a build with no IOs is much of a thing to do. 

No IOs and only SOs is very easy to do.  

You have 3 builds available that YOU can do 

Respect are available 

Hardly anyone has all three builds taken up

You don't need Devs to put in work or effort to do this for you to play with only SOs 

I don't know why this is so hard to grasp 

[TemporalVileTerror]

I suspect that the players who are entrenched with the game enough to want additional difficulty settings are the same players that have already made use of their three builds and don't have any desire to scrap a build for something which could be a Notoriety setting.

 

More Options is Best Options.

[Akisan]

Yes, some of us have all 3 builds taken.  My main (blaster) has a team build, a solo build, and a base building build with a bunch of utility travel/aura powers to test clipping and pathing.  While a 4th build for challenges would be nice, having additional notoriety settings to quickly adjust my power level (no set bonuses and/or no/limited incarnate powers) would be easier to toggle when I feel like running more of a challenge.  And it has the additional bonus that anyone who decides to run that challenge with me doesn't have to set up a special build either.

[Replacement]

Fun idea, and I really like the idea of adding new notoriety options for increasing difficulty... But I don't want this one particularly. At least it's not at the top of my list.

 

Reason: this affects some builds more adversely than others. Note, I am not talking about player combinations (particular power sets or ATs), I mean more like "I modded for a lot of recovery and endurance modification via sets instead of endurance reduction enhancements directly, and now my toggles are too expensive." Someone else might have the same build except they built the recovery into their base enhancements and used sets for a more "icing on the cake" stat.

 

I'm sure someone will read this far and say "good, that's the point." But the issue is if this difficulty setting has any tangible reward whatsoever, it selects for builds that are less impacted by the loss.

 

This is why I hate "mutators" in games. If you have a mode that makes enemies explode on death, you have just encouraged the playerbase to self-select away from melee, leading to homogeny in what people build. This isn't so different.

 

I should stress this is not a huge deal given the rest of CoH's non-elitist nature, especially if there are other modes. But if you have all these options, you know it's a matter of weeks until players begin measuring their performance of a given build based on its ability to clear "full" notoriety.

 

(Interesting solution: don't let players activate all notoriety options. If you have up to 3 to choose from a list of 10, this would work well as one of them)