So, procs...

[KelvinKole]

26 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Understood. But I still fail to see where that little extra DPS can come close to the massive loss in mitigation and utility that I'm seeing. But, for a character that does nothing but fight pylons just to get the big numbers, yea, makes perfect sense.

This is absolutely true on a scrapper, where their base damage capability is highest in the game. They don’t need procs and have very little to gain from them. Defenders, corrupters, tanks, trollers…those guys can reach previously unreachable dps levels with procs. 
 

All that said, I don’t even think there’s anything wrong with that. As I’ve said, the “problem” is really a select few procs and powers. I don’t believe there is a systemic issue with PPM. 

[Naraka]

It should be simple to calculate how much a slot's-worth of damage gets you from an individual power on a specific AT then compare it to whatever proc you're thinking of slotting it in.  Damage-slottable powers that do very minor damage would definitely math out to a much bigger gain, of course, but just like the various other disparities like slottable power effects or proc chance by power's recharge, there will be some set-ups that don't benefit directly from damage procs.

 

I would say try the same powers but with a Brute instead.

[Bill Z Bubba]

34 minutes ago, KelvinKole said:

This is absolutely true on a scrapper, where their base damage capability is highest in the game. They don’t need procs and have very little to gain from them. Defenders, corrupters, tanks, trollers…those guys can reach previously unreachable dps levels with procs. 
 

All that said, I don’t even think there’s anything wrong with that. As I’ve said, the “problem” is really a select few procs and powers. I don’t believe there is a systemic issue with PPM. 

 

I do find it a problem that my shield/nrg tank now has the same DPS as my claws/sr scrapper while maintaining VASTLY more mitigation and that's WITHOUT a procmonster build.

 

Tanks should NEVER be able to match scrapper damage output. The HIGHEST damage output tank should NEVER be able to match even the LOWEST damage output scrapper. It's a prime example of how ridiculously broken AT balance has become in this game.

 

Edit: yea, this will be my sig for a while.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bionic_Flea]

2 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Lumi can borrow my spike heels.

 

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Pics?

 

2 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Ha!

 

FlyingCodeMonkey would not approve. 😆

 

 

I'm your private dancer, a dancer for monkey, do what he wants me to do . . .

 

[Mezmera]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Understood. But I still fail to see where that little extra DPS can come close to the massive loss in mitigation and utility that I'm seeing. But, for a character that does nothing but fight pylons just to get the big numbers, yea, makes perfect sense.

 

True.  That's where tanks and defenders with their naturally higher mitigation/utility values have their advantages come into play and are able to slot procs better than a scrapper who would be able to take advantage of more procs because surviving to do the damage is important as well, a scrappers advantageous value is in slotting their damage abilities well enhanced.  

 

Pylon times are measuring the potency of your attack chains.  Not that you can survive well in all situations to deal that damage.  I don't find judging something solely by pylon times to be a good measuring stick because it is wise to build in survival to pair with the best damage you can bring.  

[plainguy]

I only see a proc build working in a group setting. 

Mobs attack back, so there is no Alpha strike and I killed them all, thus I don't get hit back. 

I can't see or I have not seen a build that can handle a 8/4 or 8/3 setting that is proc'ed out.  Mind you again I can understand if you are Proc out one power and the Primary and Secondary are set up well to be able to get Range, Smash, Lethal and maybe max out Smash and lethal Resistance. 
 

But those Primary's and Secondary's are few and far between if even possible. 

 

I know Defense cap and resistance cap. 

I know you just can't pick any powers in a  build to be able to achieve this. I know sometimes you have to slot out powers like Kick to get Melee, S/L or Range defense cap on a Blaster.

It's a power I will hardly never use but it's 4 to 6 slotted for a set bonus.

 

The only way I could see this being maybe an issue. You can slot Range Defense cap. Have some decent S/L resistance. Have a Range Nuke on a very good recharge. 
Again I can think of some Over powered concepts with this and dual boxing.  I can see a Kin maybe involved. 

 

But I cannot see someone proc'ed on a several powers and soloing 8/3..  

Again when the Proc crazy started a few players posted some theoretical proc builds with the potential numbers..  Players were in AWE.. discussed how they were gonna start creating the build, ETC.. I look at the build and see no defenses.. I post and ask in sheepish way not to be confrontive because I even I know I can be sometimes..  Nonetheless the player admits/concedes or clears up any misunderstanding that you would have to Eat Purple inspirations before the nuke for defenses..  End result It was only good every time the Nuke was up and then you better hope you have players that can offer you defense buffs because there are only so many purple inspirations you can make during a mission.  Let us not even discuss Incarnate and some harder TF and AV fights.. 

 

I know the OP mentioned even KB > KD is going to be looked at. I honestly do not see that at all. It has ZERO effect on the damage a power does. That sounds like more of a knee jerk reaction on either side. 

 

I would love to see what the Devs are talking about in all honesty. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lockpick]

12 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I do find it a problem that my shield/nrg tank now has the same DPS as my claws/sr scrapper while maintaining VASTLY more mitigation and that's WITHOUT a procmonster build.

 

Tanks should NEVER be able to match scrapper damage output. The HIGHEST damage output tank should NEVER be able to match even the LOWEST damage output scrapper. It's a prime example of how ridiculously broken AT balance has become in this game.

 

Edit: yea, this will be my sig for a while.

 

This sounds like an indictment against balancing.  Tanks were semi-okay before the HC balancing pass and now IMO they are OP.  HC team changed Energy Melee and that power set went from being one of the worst to arguably the best.

 

This is why I tend to not like balancing in general.  Sure, some minor tweaks here and there are likely needed to balance, but the HC team has done massive amounts of unneeded (IMO) balancing.  Replacing powers, shifting levels where powers are picked, etc.  Balancing begets balancing and leads to picking winners and losers...

 

At the end of the day, there will always be a performance stack rank of an AT / power set.  All the balancing does is change the stack rank for a period of time until the next balancing pass.

 

I've already stated my stance on the procs stuff, but will add one thing.

 

If one AT / power set is able to perform a little better because of procs I really don't care.  It doesn't affect me or my characters in the slightest.  I enjoy the game for what it is and I am just as happy to play a semi-weak AT as I am to play a strong AT.  I have played numerous versions of DP Blasters and had fun with all of them.  I don't think anyone is calling DP OP.  I was never able to play the TW/Bio scrapper that was supposed to be OP.  Just wasn't fun for me.

 

My point is that the team should focus on the fun factor as opposed to the balancing aspect.

 

Procs are fine...

[Haijinx]

14 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I do find it a problem that my shield/nrg tank now has the same DPS as my claws/sr scrapper while maintaining VASTLY more mitigation and that's WITHOUT a procmonster build.

 

Tanks should NEVER be able to match scrapper damage output. The HIGHEST damage output tank should NEVER be able to match even the LOWEST damage output scrapper. It's a prime example of how ridiculously broken AT balance has become in this game.

 

Edit: yea, this will be my sig for a while.

 

Why stop at "AT Balance" though?

[nihilii]

14 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Tanks should NEVER be able to match scrapper damage output. The HIGHEST damage output tank should NEVER be able to match even the LOWEST damage output scrapper. It's a prime example of how ridiculously broken AT balance has become in this game.

Arguably, this was true before Homecoming. Think Fire/SS/Soul Tanker. Remember when SS/Fire/Soul Brutes were king of the hill, pushing a ridiculous-at-the-time 300 DPS while your average middle tier scrapper, fully optimized, was in the low 200s if not below? Even before the Homecoming Tanker buff, on that particular combo so reliant on Rage Tankers still had almost 3/4 of the Brute DPS which maps out to 220ish.

 

Tankers were definitely overbuffed, and so was EM. But it's worth remembering Scrappers got massive AT-wide buffs on Homecoming too through their ATOs (especially Critical Strikes) and fast snipe Moonbeam/Zapp.

 

I remember on Live I stopped playing Scrappers for a long time. Brutes were simply better on every metric. Homecoming actually brought back some much needed balance in that respect.

Edited July 10, 2021 by nihilii

[America's Angel]

Have been playing around with a  rad/dev blaster on beta.

 

Have been throwing it up against +4/8 Rikti in a custom AE mission (Tyrant throne-room map) with the following builds:

• Softcapped with no procs
• Softcapped with 3xST attacks filled with -res and dam procs
• Softcapped with 3xAoE attacks filled with -res and dam procs

No insps. No incarnates.

 

So far, there's no significant clearspeed between the first two. The last one (AoE procs) was faster.

 

I did an extra run with the AoE proc build with T4 incarnates slotted just for fun, and everything just melted. I didn't even need to use WASD and spacebar. I just spammed my powers and everything died. Incarnates made such a huge difference. I was genuinely shocked.

 

The DPS jump from the level shift, Judgement (ion), Hybrid (assault doublehit), Interface (degen 25 -heal) , and alpha (musculature 45) is insane. The survivability jump from the level shift and Destiny (Clarion 2m) was insane. When I used Lore (Banished Pantheon untouchable), the spawns pretty much just instantly died.

 

Haven't tested the first two builds with incarnates yet. Be interesting to see how they compare.

 

Next stuff I'm going to test:

• Softcapped with no procs + incarnates
• Softcapped with 3xST attacks filled with -res and dam procs + incarnates
• All attacks procc'd out. As much +def as possible, but likely not softcapped.
• All attacks procc'd out. As much +def as possible, but likely not softcapped.+ incarnates
• All attacks procc'd out. As much +def as possible, but likely not softcapped. + incarnates + Inspirations

I should probably switch to charged armour for the last three, but I'll keep Scorpion Shield just for consistency in testing.

 

Hopefully this will help give some perspective of how procs intersect with the various OP elements in the game. And allow us to determine whether procs are overtuned, whether procs are undertuned, or whether procs seem overtuned only when paired specific things. (Incarnates/Inspirations being the two I want to test the most.)

Once I've played around a bit more & fine-tuned, I'll post up the mids files for the builds, the # of the AE map, and videos of each of the runs.

 

My hope with this is to create a framework that others can use to test different powersets. Rad/dev should overperform with procs. (This is why I picked it- the primary can slot all the -res procs, a multitude of damage procs, and the secondary has targeting drone it it so with that + tactics I don't have to slot for acc.)

 

It's not a perfect test by any stretch of the imagination. And it cannot be applied outside of fighting Rikti, with a rad/dev blaster, with a specific build. But hopefully it will show us a pattern that we can then try and replicate elsewhere, with different sets, with different builds, versus different enemies.

Edited July 10, 2021 by America's Angel

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

I remember on Live I stopped playing Scrappers for a long time. Brutes were simply better on every metric. Homecoming actually brought back some much needed balance in that respect.

 

Same thing happened to me. Soon as my spreadsheet showed how close brute claws had gotten to scrapper output it was an immediate no brainer to move BZB Scrap to a different server and recreate him as a brute on Pinnacle. Yes, AT balance was broken in many areas long before the snap happened.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, Lockpick said:

My point is that the team should focus on the fun factor as opposed to the balancing aspect.

 

I honestly grok where you're coming from on this. I agree with much of your post on what happens with balancing. Unfortunately for me, when I see gross imbalances, and worse - imbalances being made greater through poor decision making, the whole thing becomes less fun for me. Fact is, even now, my desire to play or hang around the forums has been lessened greatly by the way things have been going. And that sucks... but, it happened on live, too.

[...]

23 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I honestly grok where you're coming from on this. I agree with much of your post on what happens with balancing. Unfortunately for me, when I see gross imbalances, and worse - imbalances being made greater through poor decision making, the whole thing becomes less fun for me. Fact is, even now, my desire to play or hang around the forums has been lessened greatly by the way things have been going. And that sucks... but, it happened on live, too.

 

... and there you have it. Knowing a game is significantly unbalanced is a major problem for some, one that directly effects enjoyment of the game.

[Bill Z Bubba]

25 minutes ago, Vooded said:

... and there you have it. Knowing a game is significantly unbalanced is a major problem for some, one that directly effects enjoyment of the game.

 

Don't go runnin too hard with that. I'm apparently an "outlier" and an "opinionated curmudgeon."

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm apparently an "outlier" and an "opinionated curmudgeon."

 

Which is why we all refer to you as Cuddles.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

30 minutes ago, Vooded said:

 

... and there you have it. Knowing a game is significantly unbalanced is a major problem for some, one that directly effects enjoyment of the game.

But it is not significant imbalance, nor does it take into account that what they enjoy kills enjoyment for others. The very poster you respond to there is a perfect example of someone who clearly would be far happier on their own private server because they clearly think we are all just terribly stupid for enjoying the game design that does not favor his claw scrapper being king of the kill list by some inherent default position of divine right.

 

Because if they get their way they ruin the game for others, when they could just go take their ball and play by themselves if they dont want to get along with those who hey we just make terrible decisions because we found builds we like that are built in a manner they oppose and are just too inferior because we do not agree a claw scrapper should be better dps by some default they imagine must rule the very movement of the sun and stars in the heavens above.

 

Frankly ayone even building a Claw/SR loses any semblance of cred from me ina  discussion about builds power balance meta and all taht. A Dark SR scrapper would be the obvious scrapper entry into any challenge between ATs to prove top end DPS/survival/sustain debate between the DPS ATs. That would be like trying to use a DP blaster instead of a fire blaster to talk their real kill power.

 

Balance between ATs should not ever be between power sets. Some power sets should work better for some play styles, and combo better with some 2ndary choice better then others. There should be top teir meta combos for those who want them, as long as the dif scale exists to allow even sub par builds to find a path to slowly level if the player just really wants to play it, than its all fine. After all if there is no such thing as a build that needs to run at x1-1 then why even have that dif setting at all?

[Marbing]

50 minutes ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

 

Frankly anyone even building a Claw/SR loses any semblance of cred from me in a  discussion about builds power balance meta and all that.

 

😞 I run a Claws/SR scrapper. 

His name is Sword Fist, and you hurt his feelings. 😭

 

😛

 

[aethereal]

I find the assertion that Dark Melee is obviously superior to Claws to be weird.

[Teirusu]

24 minutes ago, aethereal said:

I find the assertion that Dark Melee is obviously superior to Claws to be weird.

 

I have to agree.  I'm not saying the Llewellyn Blackwell said isn't true or anything... but all this brings really brings up is another balance issue.

 

If a set like Dark Melee, which has tons of secondary effects attached to it, can be built to be a top DPS scrapper, that's kiiiinda an issue in it's own right, isn't it?  After it, it has tons of -tohit, a self-heal, an END buff attack, an immobilize built into one of it's powers, a Damage buff power that lasts 3x as long as a standard build up, and a fear power.  Dark Melee is suppose to be a utility set.  Not a top-end DPS set.

 

Sets like Claws, Dual Blades, and Fiery Melee should be the top DPS sets since they have basically no secondary effects besides some random thematic flail here and there.

 

 

Of course, all that isn't really apart of this discussion about procs and if answering the question if super-procing powers is OP or not intended in the original design and balance of them.  I would say no but, at least, there's a loss, usually, for using procs verse using full sets since you're loosing set bonuses.  However, all this really reminds me of ED.  The original Devs never intended that players should be 6-slotting for the same enhancements.  Even in powers that that only took one type of enhancement like Hasten/Health/Stamina, etc.  I'd imagine they'd be thinking about the same thing with 6-slotting damage procs too.

[aethereal]

10 minutes ago, Teirusu said:

 

I have to agree.  I'm not saying the Llewellyn Blackwell said isn't true or anything... but all this brings really brings up is another balance issue.

 

If a set like Dark Melee, which has tons of secondary effects attached to it, can be built to be a top DPS scrapper, that's kiiiinda an issue in it's own right, isn't it?  After it, it has tons of -tohit, a self-heal, an END buff attack, an immobilize built into one of it's powers, a Damage buff power that lasts 3x as long as a standard build up, and a fear power.  Dark Melee is suppose to be a utility set.  Not a top-end DPS set.

 

Well, as far as I know, it's not at all a top end DPS set.

 

And that's, I think, emblematic of sort of the problems we have in these kinds of discussions.  I'm sure that there's some kind of experience that backs up that poster's praise of DM/SR (not a combo that I'd recommend, since the -to-hit from DM becomes largely obsolete once you're about level 35 with SR).  But there are so many different noches within playing this game, and so little visibility into how other players play, that people make these confident assertions that seem kinda crazy in someone else's game niche).

 

For another example, I think a lot of the people in this thread who make assertions about how proc builds give up a ton of mitigation or whatever else don't quite understand how much people have been able to achieve with really sophisticated proc builds, perhaps because those builds are rarely very thematic or only function at 50 or whatever. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by aethereal

[SwitchFade]

The only thread more hilarious than proc threads, are Regen threads.

 

First of all, nerf Regen. Now that we have that out of the way 🤓...

 

Procs are not omgwtfbbqhaxorz overpowered. On most ATs and with most set combinations, they offer an avenue to POSSIBLY increase damage somewhat, at the expense of mitigation. That's it.

 

Now, there are outlying sets that can leverage them very effectively, but this is the exception, not the rule. Similarly, there are ATs and sets that can get redonk without them.

 

Procs should see a review and formulae adjustment based on TYPE, yes you read that right. Should a defender be able to leverage them to achieve higher damage? Sure! Can he sustainably get 95% of blaster damage, both equally IOd? Let's be real, this doesn't happen for the AT as a whole. Could one set combination do it? Perhaps. Would all other sets? Maybe, but the tradeoffs would render them nigh unusable in most content. Can tanks leverage procs to get ridiculous? No. TANKS cannot, perhaps one or two sets can. Should this be reviewed? For sure, but it's not DOOOooooOoooOooommmmMmmm.

 

I have never used damage procs as a build style, they happen as rare parts of sets for set bonuses. I've done ridiculous things that no proc build can do. I've watched proc builds crumble, due to lack of mitigation and I've seen procs not work, due to that funny thing called chance.

 

In the end, procs are not nearly as effective as some think, all content taken together, as a whole. Procs may help in some targeted areas and procs may have a few loopholes that allow certain sets to do silly things with them. So, they will see a balance pass to close the loopholes by type.

 

In the end, does someone's proc build really bother me? No, they die trying to hang with me while I lay the beatdown on Olympian, alone, and they thought they could hang.

 

Proc away my friends, life is good 😜

Edited July 11, 2021 by SwitchFade

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 7/11/2021 at 10:18 AM, aethereal said:

I find the assertion that Dark Melee is obviously superior to Claws to be weird.

Did I say that? No I said that in a discussion of META and scrapper builds then DM/SR a scrapper combo that was made legend on live being shown to be able to basically fight every melee AV in the game at once and between the to hit debuff and mac defense mobs get to about as close toa  0% miss chance as exist within the game would be the canidate for top end scrappers I would be using to compare a top end tank meta combo to.

 

SR on its own is not META DM on its own is not META, together on a scrapper specifically they become a META combo, that is to builders like me a good thing. We want combos that excel to exist for our gawd mode outlet, just as we want builds we can make weak enough they need to be run on -1 X1 just to be able to play the game.

 

If we are not going to allow builds on both extreme ends of the spectrum to exist, by buffing and nerfing everything into some mid range performance for the sake of global balance then most of our dif setting can just be thrown out.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 7/11/2021 at 11:11 AM, Teirusu said:

 

I have to agree.  I'm not saying the Llewellyn Blackwell said isn't true or anything... but all this brings really brings up is another balance issue.

 

If a set like Dark Melee, which has tons of secondary effects attached to it, can be built to be a top DPS scrapper, that's kiiiinda an issue in it's own right, isn't it?  After it, it has tons of -tohit, a self-heal, an END buff attack, an immobilize built into one of it's powers, a Damage buff power that lasts 3x as long as a standard build up, and a fear power.  Dark Melee is suppose to be a utility set.  Not a top-end DPS set.

 

Sets like Claws, Dual Blades, and Fiery Melee should be the top DPS sets since they have basically no secondary effects besides some random thematic flail here and there.

 

 

Of course, all that isn't really apart of this discussion about procs and if answering the question if super-procing powers is OP or not intended in the original design and balance of them.  I would say no but, at least, there's a loss, usually, for using procs verse using full sets since you're loosing set bonuses.  However, all this really reminds me of ED.  The original Devs never intended that players should be 6-slotting for the same enhancements.  Even in powers that that only took one type of enhancement like Hasten/Health/Stamina, etc.  I'd imagine they'd be thinking about the same thing with 6-slotting damage procs too.

Again did I say it was always inherently top DPS? No, however virtually any honest player knows that in general energy based damage sets perform better globally then physical ones simply due to the nature of mob resistances.

 

Likewise I made specific mention of a famous META combo, Claws also has its own famous meta combo partner, the very obvious one REGEN. Regen and claws both excel when the set focus is on global recharge, Its damage buff ability for example is best when used every other attack in an attack chain to keep its buff stacked as high as possible. Much like BS and Katana might with the parry attack for defense. Regen thrives on recharge due to being heavy click based spot healing, having those ready when you need them is always a good thing. I would never expect a Dark/ Regen for example to compete with either a Dark SR, or Claw Regen at top end performance and frankly dont want that to really be the way the game works.

 

I want bad build paths, newb traps, non meta and meta combo options. I want there to be -1x1 builds and +4 x8 solo builds.

[aethereal]

6 minutes ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

Did I say that? No I said that in a discussion of META and scrapper builds then DM/SR a scrapper combo that was made legend on live being shown to be able to basically fight every melee AV in the game at once and between the to hit debuff and mac defense mobs get to about as close toa  0% miss chance as exist within the game would be the canidate for top end scrappers I would be using to compare a top end tank meta combo to.

 

SR on its own is not META DM on its own is not META, together on a scrapper specifically they become a META combo, that is to builders like me a good thing.

 

I mean, it's not, though.

 

Like, was there a time on Live when the to-hit debuffs from DM were useful with SR?  Sure.  Before it became very easy to build plenty of defense without relying on to-hit debuffs.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Just now, aethereal said:

 

I mean, it's not, though.

 

Like, was there a time on Live when the to-hit debuffs from DM were useful with SR?  Sure.  Before it became very easy to build plenty of defense without relying on to-hit debuffs.

Do you have a scrapper build/video soloing 12 AVs at once? I would love to see it if you do as such are always truly a great bit of fun to watch. That is the literal standard of Dark/SR 12 AVs at once. And that was with SOs, no set bonuses just the raw power of those 2 sets combined and a player who had his rotations down like a pro.

 

Anyone trying to act like soft defense from sources that lack debuff resistance somehow obsolete as a set like SR are exactly the kind of barmy cutters who help get things they dont really understand or use or at least use well nerfed.