Dedicated Archetypes

[Diantane]

Often I'll see a tank or a defender that has trained a lot of their early attacks. Like they are going to play just like a tank/scrapper or defender/blaster (50/50). The problem with that is since the attacks are in their secondary power-set, they will be weaker than a primary set would be. So they have become a "jack of all trades, but master of none."

 

When I play an archetype, I dedicate myself. If I'm a defender my job is to support the team. So I will train my primary support powers with all priority. I only train an attack if that's all I can and my pool powers are complete.  When either a 50/50 defender or a dedicated defender joins a team, everyone sees the difference right away. As a dedicated defender that has slotted all of the primary powers for buffs and debuffs (not for damage) the team will thank you for it and possibly ask you to join them on other teams.

 

The same goes for the tank. A 50/50 tank will be weak on a team. They won't do much damage and die just like any other player. As a dedicated tank all of your defenses are trained and well slotted. So you can run into a large group of foes and taunt them to you. Be able to handle the "Alpha Strike" every time and protect your team. Those that are dedicated Defenders that heal very well, will bring your health after the alpha up to maximum very quickly. They won't be firing off weak weapons, but concentrating on keeping the team alive.

 

This goes with any archetype. I've also played dedicated controllers. Everything slotted with holds, slows, confuse, defense debuffs, to-hit debuffs, etc. (never damage).  Started a Dedicated Mastermind yesterday and leveled in team today from 8 to 27. He is Beast/Kin. Every Beast power is trained and well slotted. Only two kinetic powers are trained (transfusion by default) and Siphon Power. So my primary attack set is well covered. I'm not just standing there watching my pets attack. I'm totally engaged in combat and having a blast doing it too.

 

After your dedicated archetype has all of their primary powers trained and slotted (mid 30's) you can start training the higher tier attacks that will do much more damage, but you'll never play that character the same way as others play theirs, ever again.

 

As a dedicated archetype let others know this, "L16 Dedicated Sonic Defender LFT or L26 Dedicated Alpha Tank LFT. You will be recruited before others every time!

 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Diantane

[Outrider_01]

lo you are playing the wrong game my friend.  People can slot how ever they want and still function.  Once you get to IO set, it doesn't really matter what you pick and slot.

[Diantane]

Obviously you just read the title, skimmed the post and made your reply. You just don't understand the power of a dedicated archetype. If a plain tank that trained anything ran into a group of purple foes, they are going to die and die quickly. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Diantane

[Ignatz the Insane]

I've always kinda disliked the terms 'dedicated healer' and 'dedicated tank' and 'dedicated controller', and so on.  (Outside of some very specific content)

 

Yes, there should be a priority to power picks and slotting.  But this game is both forgiving and rewarding to players who decide to spread their powers and slots to be more 'jack of all trades' as you say.  

Edited September 22, 2021 by Ignatz the Insane

[DoctorDitko]

Also, don't forget, there are Defenders without heals, and there used to be Tanks who couldn't Taunt effectively. Spread out a bit, try some oddball combinations. This game was specifically designed to avoid falling into the "Holy Trinity" trap.

 

It really is forgiving of odd builds, the emphasis on individuality is one of its strengths.

[Hew]

There is a whole host of tanks that zing not because of their primary, but synergy with or specifically because of pool powers or their secondary. It is extremely feasible for a tank with dark melee, or with energy melee, to do GOBS of damage, even in aoe, which then triggers gobs of gauntlet hits and drives the tanks threat way up for enhanced taunt effect.

 

Further, a tank with something like dark melee is pumping huge tohit debuffs into the enemies. That is something they just dont get from their primary.

[Outrider_01]

34 minutes ago, Diantane said:

Obviously you just read the title, skimmed the post and made your reply

Nope, I read it.  What you are saying applies in the era of I4 with SO.  

 

A tank would only need about 15 slots dedicated to the resists/defense, rest can be dedicated to attacks.  Tanks can't really train unless you got retards who don't know to stop that continue to run through groups.  aggro cap means they can only pull 16 and anything else is aggro on the team member who went to flirt with the next group; which tanks cannot pull off very well.

 

a defender or corrupter could slot radiation blast for -defense to enhance the character with what ever their buff set is. Tenebreous Tentacles in dark blast can take range target or immobilize.

 

You don't even need to slot single target hold for hold duration, recharge and ACC  can cover it with multiple applications.  A single hold enhancement would just help cover that gap.  Single target hold can benefit from range damage sets.

 

 you can slot AoE hold all you want, but it would benefit more with recharge and acc, as the recharge is so long with a short duration its worthless because everything is dead.  Can use damage PBAOE sets for just an extra bit of omph to kill stuff.

 

With an IO build for smash/lethal def, I can avoid 75% of incoming damage.  Than empathy or force field are useless power sets with their buffs so splash heals like dark miasma, radiation debuff, or time work pretty well.  team benefits more with debuff which radiation blast can cover in spades of need be.

 

My 2 dominator are built more for damage, an dark/Ice build around the pets with just the immobilize and fear cones slotted for damage.  Dark/Psi built more for damage, has the PBAOE stun which hardly uses, as the fear and immobilize work better, which are slotted for damage and procs.  Both have the Ice mastery, so with hoarfrost it can tank a return alpha with stuff debuffed from fear and the immobilize wearing stuff down.  The single hold is slotted with damage procs to nail bosses.

[Verfall]

I have a blaster that was based on an idea posted in this forum a few months back about "only using P2W attacks". I have not slotted a single primary attack. He does plenty of damage.

 

Nothing infuriates COH players more than people putting other MMO ideas into our game. This game is the single most open ended "do what ever the hell you wanna do" mmo in history. Archetypes are more of a "point in a general idea direction" thing than an actual "follow to the letter" spiel like other mmos.

 

Petless mastermind? Do it! Tank who only uses power pool attacks? You got it! Empathy defender who ignores their secondary? Welcome to the team!

 

Anyone who picks and chooses their teams based on slotting and power sets and etc, unless you're doing one of the rare tasks that "might require" a certain archetype, is either playing the wrong game, or is a control freak and should not be teamed with for your sanity.

 

When I form teams I just grab the first 7 people who reply, make an educated guess on what we can handle, and go for it. Adjust difficulty as you go. Putting any more thought into it is really just micro managing nonsense.

[Diantane]

Sure, you can do anything you want in this game. So I did and saw the difference. As it was said up top, not all tanks can take alphas no matter how good their defense is set up. I've tried half of them. Some were better than others. My first was a WP tank . He could take alphas until he was 30, then he lost the edge. Rad tank was pretty good too for awhile.

 

It was said above that you can't dedicate a character yet you can. Its already been done many times by myself. You get every primary power as soon as it's available. Average builds can never do this. I looked at player's info and saw see the powers they took and skipped.

 

If I took all those kin powers on my mm, my beast mastery wouldn't be so "mastery."

[Verfall]

43 minutes ago, Diantane said:

Sure, you can do anything you want in this game. So I did and saw the difference. As it was said up top, not all tanks can take alphas no matter how good their defense is set up. I've tried half of them. Some were better than others. My first was a WP tank . He could take alphas until he was 30, then he lost the edge. Rad tank was pretty good too for awhile.

 

It was said above that you can't dedicate a character yet you can. Its already been done many times by myself. You get every primary power as soon as it's available. Average builds can never do this. I looked at player's info and saw see the powers they took and skipped.

 

If I took all those kin powers on my mm, my beast mastery wouldn't be so "mastery."

So you take the 3 pet powers, the 2 upgrades and maybe fortify pack? Kinetics is full of great powers. If you're nearly 30 and only have 2 Kin powers, you're gimping yourself. You should have at least 4 powers from Kin at that point. And honestly, getting down to "dedicated" builds, taking the attacks in mastermind pet sets is not optimal outside of using them for IO placeholders. You'd get wayyyyy more utility out of siphon speed and speed boost at that level.

 

Taking alphas is not a big deal. Anyone can do it. Most base tanks with SO's can take an alpha, even at 4/8. Surviving it for long periods of time is a question, but if you're running 4/8 and not taking down mobs before the tank dies, you need to lower the difficulty.

 

Making "dedicated" toons, and than going out of your way to advertise it would make me second guess inviting someone to my team. It would come across as pretentious to me if I saw "dedicated beast/kin MM, lvl 30 lft". I'd be like "wtf does dedicated mean?" Hell, all you'd have to say is "MM with kin" and you'd get an invite from most people, until they realize you're past level 20 and didn't take speed boost. At that point they're questioning your sanity probably.

 

Make your toons how you want, but don't be surprised if you start dictating how toons should be made or advertised in chat channels, if you start getting push back. Do you, be what you want to be, play how you want to play. But don't come into the forums giving advice that honestly looks like it was designed to annoy certain players on here and not expect to get push back.

[DreadShinobi]

The thing about the current game state is that survivability is relative and you can always be dealing more damage. If I build a hyper aggressive full offense fiery aura tanker that holds aggro and never dies, am I a "50/50 jack of all trades master of none"? If a tanker provides 3 functions - survive, hold aggro, and deal damage, which tanker will be contributing more to the team? The "dedicated" tanker that survives, holds aggro, and sits there spamming jab? Or the tanker that equally survives, equally holds aggro, and completes mission objectives by actually dealing damage? The same can be said of defenders that adequately understand how to balance their primary/secondary usage. Kinetics is a great example where appropriate weaving of your abilities feels like an art form.

Edited September 22, 2021 by DreadShinobi

[Luminara]

I smell troll.

 

[Carnifax]

There's a bit of a disconnect here between the OP over the last week saying very basic things ingame don't work (The Market being too expensive, Blasters, Controller AoE mezzes, Support and Arctic Air) and then coming up with "This is how you should build your character"

 

You can of course make a dedicated tank. He'll be very boring however (and most of my characters will laugh at you if you insist you should be first in. Even the squishies). 

 

I've no idea what a 'dedicated' Mastermind is supposed to be. 

[TheZag]

3 hours ago, Diantane said:

If I took all those kin powers on my mm, my beast mastery wouldn't be so "mastery."

 

Take speed boost.  Your beasts will thank you every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I smell troll.

 

This feels more misguided than intentional.

 

1 minute ago, Carnifax said:

I've no idea what a 'dedicated' Mastermind is supposed to be. 

 

No attacks. Pets in bodyguard mode. Spam secondary?

 

All of my characters are built for scrapperlock. This is why I suck at blasters but it works well for everything else.

[Snarky]

I prefer Brutes.  Always have.  Various reasons.  I have some Tanks.  I build them EXACTLY the same as Brutes.  One exception.  I take taunt on every Tank and never take it on Brutes.  Tanks (especially since the update on Tanks including improved AoE) are respectable melee damage dealers.  Blaster level damage?   What?  No!  But they do damage, They kill stuff.  They are effecting every fight strategically as well as tactically removing opponents.

[InvaderStych]

5 hours ago, Verfall said:

Make your toons how you want, but don't be surprised if you start dictating how toons should be made or advertised in chat channels, if you start getting push back. Do you, be what you want to be, play how you want to play.

 

So very much this. Emphasis obviously mine.  However, against my better judgement I'mma take the proverbial bait and add a few direct responses anyway.

 

10 hours ago, Diantane said:

Often I'll see a tank or a defender that has trained a lot of their early attacks.

 

First, do yourself a favor and stop looking at finished builds on the forums.  Without knowing what sets you are looking at there are a whole host of reasons for this - most often it's DPA: Damage Per Activation Time.  The DPA on Beam Rifle's T1 is absolutely insane.  Taking Fire Blast without Fire Ball - a fast activating early AoE is, imo, gimping one's self.  Hemorrhage from Savage Melee is one of the most worst and most broken attacks in the game.  That's why you see savage builds focused on the T1, 2, and 3 attacks.

 

There's a whole lot of depth to character building around these parts, and there are often multiple reasons to make one choice over another.

 

10 hours ago, Diantane said:

When I play an archetype, I dedicate myself.

 

Fantastic! Though "Dedicating to a Role" and "Building a sub-optimal toon because one doesn't understand the underlying mechanics" are not the same thing.  To wit:

 

6 hours ago, Diantane said:

If I took all those kin powers on my mm, my beast mastery wouldn't be so "mastery."

 

This ... This is just .... I mean.  WTF?  This makes me a Sad Panda.

 

By not taking those /Kin powers that MM is doing both its pets and its team-mates a grave disservice.  I know if I was rolling with a /Kin and never receiving Speed Boost or seeing Fulcrum Shift I'd wonder what was amiss.  And I certainly wouldn't feel that the player behind said toon was "dedicated to their role."

 

10 hours ago, Diantane said:

The same goes for the tank. A 50/50 tank will be weak on a team.

 

Just.  No.  Go back and read through The Tank Gods thread.  Rather than wait I'll just say that I'd team with every single one of those "50/50" tanks that are soloing challenge level content.  That way I know they'll be able to keep pace with my alpha-soaking scrappers and my teleporting steam-roller: the fire/mc blaster. 😉

 

Seriously.  I'd wager that the "solo challenge" builds the that thread would do just fine in those rare instances where you actually, really need a full on tank: MLTF for Recluse, someone to keep Hami's attention, MO runs through iTrials, and the various 801 AE challenge missions at high difficulty settings.  Struggling to think of other instances but there are some more I'm sure.  There's stuff where a well-rounded team is advisable (DA, LGTF, etc), but where you need a "Dedicated Tank?"  Not really, very few of those.

 

Not do dismiss tanks.  Tanks are currently "Absolute Units" right now.  Just to say that the traditional role of "Dedicated Main Tank" is rarely, if ever, needed in The Cities.

 

6 hours ago, Diantane said:

Sure, you can do anything you want in this game. So I did and saw the difference. As it was said up top, not all tanks can take alphas no matter how good their defense is set up. I've tried half of them. Some were better than others. My first was a WP tank . He could take alphas until he was 30, then he lost the edge. Rad tank was pretty good too for awhile.

 

Barely scratching the surface of possibility.  My advice:  Pick the thing you enjoyed playing the most so far, and slow-road level it to 50+3.  Thank me later. Don't PL, Don't Farm.  Take your time; experiment with different powers.  Use a second build to go in a different direction than the main build and see what works and what doesn't.  Respecs fall upon us like Rain on the Plain in Spain.

 

Use them.

 

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

I smell troll.

 

I mean, I try to give ppl the benefit of doubt these days:  In the OP's other threads mentioned by @Carnifax I made the assumption that @Diantane was working their way through the usual "Experienced MMO Player New To City Of Heroes" stumbles and adjustments.  But seeing that thread you've linked was a year ago, idk.

 

The threads do lack the wanton malice of trolling, so further benefit of the doubt it is.

 

🍻

Edited September 22, 2021 by InvaderStych

[Triumphant]

@Diantane  Skilled character builders can get some astonishingly effective results by slotting their toons in ways that many might find unintuitive.  That's part of the creative appeal of the game.

 

I don't mind a well built "dedicated" tank constructed in a traditional way, but don't be so quick to write off players who don't do it the same way as you do as ineffective or sub-par.  This is often not true.

 

Also, there is the plain fact that this game is astonishingly easy and you can succeed in groups with a sub-par character in most of the content.  All you really need is one powerful damage dealer and they can murder pretty much every mob on the map.

[arcane]

I think you’re speaking too soon, Diantane. Once you experience fully kitted out IO builds, I think you’ll see that nothing in the game demands a tanker so tough that he couldn’t make room to slot any attacks. The best builds are the ones that do both primary and secondary roles well.

 

I’m excited for you to figure out IO’s and Incarnates as they’re obviously a missing ingredient behind most of your forum threads, waiting to be experienced.

Edited September 22, 2021 by arcane

[Six-Six]

Your dedication should be directed to your principle and how effective (or efficient) you are at getting it done with whatever powers you have available. Most heroes/villains suit up and do their thang, regardless of what powers they have or have not. They don't go and wait for their Squad or League. If you can't go and face whatever foe comes your way, all on your own, then you're just a sidekick.
 

[Sailboat]

Generally I find it's easy to take all your primary powers, slot them, and still have room for attacks and secondaries.  In fact, often, avoiding secondary powers would mean taking even weaker pool powers you wouldn't normally need -- it would be some kind of stunt, not smart building.

 

As far as playing goes, back in the day I often observed "dedicated" players who refused to add any value outside of what they perceived to be their role.  "Healers" who wouldn't contribute to damage, they'd just wait for their heal to recharge...and so on.  That made them less effective on a team than a well-rounded character.

 

So, back in the day, I would have disagreed with your thesis.  Nowadays, however, your point is even less valid for reasons cited by others in this thread (especially IO sets).  SO I double-dog-disagree, I guess.

 

I don't like to tell anyone how to play, so you do you.  But if you're really seeing teams collapse, it might not be for the reasons you suspect -- player inexperience might be a much bigger factor, or people falsely believing everything must be run on +4 x8, or what have you.  I submit that broader and deeper experience with the game might change your mind about this topic.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Sailboat

[skoryy]

/e squints again

[Dazl]

Just because it’s you secondary doesn’t mean it not important, it’s the other half of your character. Using them effectively together should be your goal. 
 

The magic of this game is the flexibility and variations of the possible power set combos. Just about any team can work, you just might have to change your tactics sometimes. There is no holy trinity or “dedication” required, your in the wrong MMO for that.

[skoryy]

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

I smell troll.

 

 

Is it me or does anyone else remember that thread was started by a different account name?

 

It was me, Wayback says its the same account.

Edited September 22, 2021 by skoryy

[InvaderStych]

12 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Is it me or does anyone else remember that thread was started by a different account name?

 

I do not.  But then again I also didn't remember replying in that thread with a ton of info and links either (which I apparently did, having discovered so while looking for something else in my post history), so maybe don't rely on what I remember. 😄