Anyone else notice a slowly increasing number of people joining groups just to solo?

[arcane]

I run ahead to grab extra mobs or to fight a different room full of baddies because fighting a single spawn with a competent group is painfully boring and stupidly inefficient. Play 801’s or these level 44 TF’s if you want to discourage this, because there’s no good reason not to run wild in most of the game’s content.

[Apparition]

5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

On that topic, my memory is failing. Was being able to start TFs solo ever a thing on live or did that happen with the SSPS and carry over to HC?

 

SSPS.

[Ukase]

19 hours ago, Bob_Loblaw said:

 It's a lie people are telling themselves to justify their selfish attitude. Saying that it's making things better by going solo from a group is not true.  If you are not going to be with the group, why be in a group at all?

 

Better is subjective. In the context of this quote - the counterpoint I would make is that if it weren't better (faster) then those that broke off from the team would still be in the final room clearing mobs when the rest of the team reached them. Instead, they completed the mission. Quickly. In that context, you could be right; it's not better. Maybe faster, but maybe not better.  

Back in the old days of AOL dial-up, we'd leave glowies for the mission holder. We had a tank - because brutes didn't exist yet, nor did IOs allowing any scrapper other than regen be tanky, that would enter the fray, taunt, possibly gather the mobs, a controller would lock them down, and perhaps a blaster would use a nuke while a defender was busy casting whatever buffs/debuffs they had at their disposal. 

But, with the development of mids, and other various add-ons, the game and it's players (some) have evolved. Blasters are sheer dps with soft-capped defense. A lot harder to kill. My blasters don't need clear mind. Don't need fort. Don't need the debuffs. And your speed boost while now welcome (used to hate it), it's not a big deal either. Sure, I love a good fulcrum shift, but most mobs don't last long enough to make it really useful. Brutes and tanks don't even need to mash buttons. They just put an attack on auto and watch Netflix and chill. No idea what defenders do, other than look for a team. I've solo'd a few - and while interesting, they sure don't dish out much damage solo, (discounting the various proc-monsters) and certainly less on a team. Same with controllers. This is why they team. They can tell me it's for the company, the chatter, but 90% of the pugs I join, nobody says anything. 


So, while I think speeding ahead, or a player going off on their own is perfectly fine and makes things faster, the real question is a fair one. 

Why team when you are going to solo within the team mission map? If I were to do such a thing (I usually solo) it would likely be due to boredom and lack of direction from the team lead. But my best guess is because you advertised in a broad fashion and the player interpreted it as a play how you'd like to scenario. As much as I'd love to speak for everyone, I can't. So, the question may be answered differently by others. 

[Outrider_01]

22 hours ago, Bob_Loblaw said:

Stuart from MadTV), 

 

*SMH*

+100 points for showing your age, one of the best characters on MadTV In the world

 

-95 points for not acting your age.  That SMH makes me SMH 🤦‍♂️,  come on man just use l337 speak instead of sounding young

[Carnifax]

Is there some trick to this "Run as a level 44" for TFs / teams? Other than "be level 44" of course.

[MHertz]

People play for all kinds of reasons and get their enjoyment from different experiences. Personally, I think the most fun to be had (combat-wise) in this game is when you have a team that's juuu-uust barely in over their heads. Life bars are turning yellow, then orange. Maybe a squishy goes down. Maybe the tanker is in trouble. An extra group got aggro'd or a patrol swung by and it's just slightly more than you're prepared for. You're clicking buttons frantically, spinning the camera, looking for the best targets, trying to drop inspirations on your teammates, flinging buffs and debuffs, clicking attacks as soon as they come up, and your team just barely scrapes through by dint of heroic effort, good luck, and the proper teamwork. You see a squishy that's in trouble and you bash the enemy that's going toe-to-toe with him. You throw the tanker a heal or a bubble. You realize the defender is taking too much aggro and you run to intervene with a well-timed hold. You see the brute's life bar is turning bright red and you laugh help. That's fun — to me. But not to everyone.

 

I can see how some people might prefer to steamroll stuff without ever being in danger, because it would feel more powerful. I can see how some people are more impressed by watching orange damage numbers fly. That's fun for me, too, but not when it's too easy. Not when I don't feel like I make a difference.

 

So I can also see how some people might get frustrated by constantly trying to target stuff and finding everything dead. Or they have to go on an unannounced AFK and nobody noticed. Or when your damage line is MISS! MISS! MISS! MISS! before someone comes in and one-shots the two +4 guys you're fighting. That's frustrating. So yeah, maybe I can see why some people would prefer to solo, because it feels like they're doing something. They're getting their adrenaline rush from taking on just slightly too much.

 

What I don't really understand is why it's necessary to be on a team for that. It seems to me that teaming, only to go rogue, is trying to have the best of both worlds for the solo artist. Cake, and also eating said cake. Other people are earning you quick XP and frequent drops by steamrolling, while you feel important and cool and essential all by yourself, doing your thing, even though you're slogging along more slowly than the group would as a whole. (If you think Solo can defeat a group faster than Solo + Teammates, you're going to have to show me how that works, because it would mean Teammates have a negative net effectiveness. They would have to be making the enemies stronger.)

 

And yeah, communication is the answer. "Hey, let's stick together for this first group, to see how things go. Let's see how well this low-level tanker can withstand aggro. Let's see what our DPS looks like. Let's make sure we're going to be able to roll pretty well." Because I've been on missions where people try to go rogue and solo whole groups, and they're Not Good At It. I have to run after them with heals or bubbles, chasing down a tanker, two brutes and a stalker who all want to do their own thing, except they can't really handle it, and the support team is getting nailed too because there's no meatshield. I've been on teams where I have to say in chat "Hey, dummies, there's a +4 boss attacking our only controller back there, stop aggroing that next group." Or where I have to say "Team is split, come back, we're in trouble here." That isn't much fun to me. It's stressful, because as a support type I feel responsible for herding those cats. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by MHertz

[ZekeStenzland]

On 9/25/2021 at 3:11 PM, Bob_Loblaw said:

My point is that breaking away from the group does slow things down

 

... Except when it doesn't. I can assure you, the reason someone stealths to the end and does Assemble the Team is because it's much faster than everyone sticking together and fighting their way down the halls. And that requires the stealther to break away from the non-stealthy folks.

 

And on the Synapse TF where you're rescuing warehouse workers, it's generally faster for the stalker to stealth down a dead end and take out just the 2 hostage guards, then it is for the whole team to fight their way there.

 

Whether splitting up is more efficient or less efficient will depend on the team, team goals, the mission, and the specific mission objectives. Your dogmatic attachment to the idea that everything is more efficient when all teammates stay near each other at all times is unnuanced and unpersuasive.

 

Additionally, all this drama could have been avoided in the first place, if you'd just tell your team what your expectations are up front rather than just assuming your preferred playstyle is the default one and then getting huffy when others don't conform to your expectations.

Edited September 27, 2021 by ZekeStenzland
fixed typo

[Triumphant]

12 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Be careful painting with too broad a brush, there... Not everyone with a higher-level character is a potential menace who'll demand your star and force you into a speed run.

 

When I team, it's typically with my support types. They are (Like almost all of my crew at this point-) finished, fully-equipped 50+ characters.

I still tend to run them almost exclusively with lower- to mid-level teams rather than at end-game, though. They were even built with that level of play in mind.

 

Why?

 

It's not to "show off" or spoil your fun.

 

It's because those lowbie and midbie teams are the ones that benefit the most from HAVING an attentive support character running along with them. End-game teams these days just don't need me. They're typically all very self-sufficient individually, and would be better served having an extra damage-focused character along instead of one of my support-focused Defenders.  So, when I want to get my classic Rad or my Dark or my Sonic or my Thermal on, I jump in with a 20- or 30-something PUG. I buff. I debuff. I pew pew the bad guys (Or the good guys, as the case may be. 😝 ) and have a great time doing it.

 

I'm not there to solo the map. 

I'm there to make sure we collectively kicks butts as stylishly as possible. 

Well, don't misunderstand me.  I'm not imply any kind of malfeasance or malevolent intent to people that ask to receive the star (although, yes- there are those rare gems that get huffy about it, if you decline).  I'm just saying that if you're shooting for a (just as an example) lvl 35 taskforce team play experience, having a level 50 join and take the star ruins that experience. 

[Songseven]

yeah not entirely bothered by people breaking off from group to solo, clean up packs, scout objectives or dragging/consolidating mobs from obscure locations etc

 

but umm yeah, the 'hold my beer, look at me!' end objective rush, kill the squishy EB/named boss and/or click a glowie as people enter/travel to mission is just obnoxious...

 

 

imo as others have stated, if leader/creator of 'team' specifies a particular approach, you respect that, or leave and form your own.

 

 

 

 

[Snarky]

My SG regularly does ITF at -1 for 11-13 minutes runs.   This creates a certain experience that is very challenging yet sideways to what the OP wants.  
 

many other groups have completely different settings and strategies for the ITF

 

the ONLY way to get this information to your team….is to talk to them.  A well written LFG advertisement.  Say hi and check in with each teammate.  Post in team chat what you expect before the TF starts 

[QuiJon]

On 9/25/2021 at 2:51 PM, Sovera said:

It's being efficient. No, trust me, it's not a personal insult lobbed at your face. No, it's not about secretly thinking that people will be looking at the screen and sighing wistfully thinking how cool those people are.

 

🙂

 

Eight people are steamrolling content. If the content is to find something or kill everything then the main group going left and someone going right is speeding things up.

 

Unless they are the meat shield. Or the content is actually hard. But the content is rarely hard if one person is capable of soloing it, innit?

Not even just that but like in my example I was on a fire tank playing with a team that apparently giving no attention to running into my mob and foot stomping their lobster. Another err r was setting off explosive blast every other power seemingly alternating it with gale. So as an aoe tanker that is no good. So options are tell them to play my way, me staying on the team having no fun, or quitting on a tf where they can not replace me.

 

If I am in the maps alone I dont click blinkies or anything. I figure let the majority do that.

[Grouchybeast]

11 hours ago, MHertz said:

If you think Solo can defeat a group faster than Solo + Teammates, you're going to have to show me how that works, because it would mean Teammates have a negative net effectiveness. They would have to be making the enemies stronger.

 

It's a question of overkill.  If the team as a whole can land 200% of the damage needed to kill a spawn, then splitting the team into two and having each sub-team engage different spawns would halve the mission clear time (not really, because of the time to travel between spawns, but you get the point).

 

And in a range-heavy team, it can be difficult for a melee character to reach the next mob before the hail of AOEs has wiped it out.  If a melee character who can safely engage at +4x8 only rarely gets to land an attack (and when they do, their attack doesn't materially speed up the spawn defeat due to AOE damage overkill), then they effectively might as well just doorsit the mission for all the difference they're making to the mission completion.  It doesn't hurt the team if instead they engage a different spawn, and it probably speeds up the mission.  Even if it takes the solo melee four times as long to clear a spawn as it would take the team, then it means the group as a whole is defeating 125% of the mobs in the same time.

 

They're still contributing to the team, because they're contributing to the mission speed and success overall, even if they're doing it in a slightly different location.

[UltraAlt]

23 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Step up, vile ones.

You know you don't want to game with me either.

Let us be done with this so we can all move on.

 

Two asked for it.

Another lurked around protesting but wasn't brave enough, so I took matters into my own hands and put them on ignore without being asked to do so.

Anyone else that may have tried to step up was already on ignore.

 

It's as I suspected. The number of people that want to behave badly on a team or are willing to defend others behaving badly on a team are a very small minority.

And they are the same people that I felt behaved badly enough in the forums that I didn't want to bother with seeing their posts.

 

So it's a win-win for me to use ignore.

i don't have to see content that I know I will find annoying.

I get to go directly to posts that I know will have viewpoints that I will enjoy reading.

 

It's kind of the way that we all pick the kind of media we watch/listen to/etc.

We look for new content that we will enjoy. We ignore/avoid content that we don't enjoy.

 

I like to team and I like to figure out how to mesh with a team to do my part and make the team better. Having teammates work together is what makes teaming fun to me. Watching the synergy come together. Watching the team gel.

Someone joining a team and then running off is just annoying to me. It isn't a major annoyance, but I now see how much it maybe disruptive for the other players that I recruited.

 

So, what this thread has taught me is

1) to just go ahead and kick those that don't want to be part of the team, because they aren't being part of the team if they just to run off and do their own thing.

2) the players that disagree with 1 are the ones that join a team someone else is leading just to run off and do their own thing (ie they don't think a leader that recruited for a team has a right to kick them if they aren't going to behave like a teammate)

 

[Erratic1]

11 hours ago, MHertz said:

What I don't really understand is why it's necessary to be on a team for that. It seems to me that teaming, only to go rogue, is trying to have the best of both worlds for the solo artist. Cake, and also eating said cake. Other people are earning you quick XP and frequent drops by steamrolling, while you feel important and cool and essential all by yourself, doing your thing, even though you're slogging along more slowly than the group would as a whole. (If you think Solo can defeat a group faster than Solo + Teammates, you're going to have to show me how that works, because it would mean Teammates have a negative net effectiveness. They would have to be making the enemies stronger.)

 

No, soloing resulting in faster clears means the solo is able to be more effective moving off than staying with the team. 

 

I join groups because playing in a team is often more entertaining than soloing but if (a) with the group I am not really contributing much because I keep finding my targets dead before I can hit them and (b) I know I can handle moving ahead without them, then I have been known to move onto the next spawn. Because of (a) my contribution is much lower than it could be. Say I'm dealing 20-40% of my potential damage by staying with the team. If I move ahead I am putting out 100% of my damage. 100% > 40%, so instead of a group total output of 700+40=740% by my staying with the team it is 700+100=800%. 

 

Mind you, this is mostly confined for me to my melee characters. When I do move ahead solo I only go one spawn forward, not to the end. And even then engaging the next spawn is predicated on it being trash. I am not going to engage the boss solo even if I could handle it because I do not want to deprive the team of the fight. I also keep an eye on the health/endurance bars of the team to see if they are being hurt by my absences when I first move off. If they are able to handle what remains without me, why shouldn't I move forward as opposed to staying with the group watching things melt before I can do anything?

 

 

[arcane]

These people that don’t understand how spread-out players can result in more xp/time because they’re so hung up on how 1 person performs vs 8 against a singular spawn... really something else.

[Xenosone]

Considering most of the pug tfs i join have thier difficulty set to -1x0 im kinda bored so i go beat up dudes with no chance by myself.

[Bionic_Flea]

Jordan:  I don't like the way you play!

Ewing:  Well, I don't like the way you play!  You think you're so good at this game.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Bionic_Flea

[Hedgefund]

I've seen it mentioned more than once by more than one poster so it's worth noting - there is no -1 on a TF.  You can set it to -1 but the actual tf minimums are 0.  You may seeing lower leveled mobs due to level shifts or in a few instances missions that are, for whatever reason, front loaded with lower levels (the Scout mission for Numina comes to mind).

[Apparition]

1 hour ago, Grouchybeast said:

And in a range-heavy team, it can be difficult for a melee character to reach the next mob before the hail of AOEs has wiped it out.  If a melee character who can safely engage at +4x8 only rarely gets to land an attack (and when they do, their attack doesn't materially speed up the spawn defeat due to AOE damage overkill), then they effectively might as well just doorsit the mission for all the difference they're making to the mission completion.  It doesn't hurt the team if instead they engage a different spawn, and it probably speeds up the mission.  Even if it takes the solo melee four times as long to clear a spawn as it would take the team, then it means the group as a whole is defeating 125% of the mobs in the same time.

 

 

Yep, exactly.  That's why I have lately felt completely ineffective when playing a melee character on a team, unless I stay way ahead of the team.  Between that and the average PUG team having a bunch of damage and Tankers with no debuffs, I pretty much just play ranged anymore.

[Cherry]

On 9/25/2021 at 5:08 PM, The_Warpact said:

And this is why I only team with my friends, there is no having to explain how to team, no people going of on their own, not following directions, etc.

Going with strangers gets you strange results, no thanks.

this.

 

reading this thread makes me thankful for the friends im able to play with. Although i do wander off a lot.... but they all know this, they let me do it, and when I die, come rez me. 

[tidge]

I've only read the OP, and this is my response to it.

 

I haven't really noticed a change, it's something that has been happening for years on HC.

 

Some folks are just loners, rebels.

 

 

Sometimes a TF is advertised as "speed", this presumes that at least one member of the team will be rushing to the end. Often one member volunteers to wait by a contact and never even enters the mission. Sometimes folks misinterpret this.

 

 

Often, I encourage teams to split up once I know they can handle the content (ehem Synapse TF, Citadel TF).

 

 

 

[ZekeStenzland]

I can’t help but wonder what kind of reaction the OP gets when, on the street hunt section of the Numina TF, he tells the team “wait for everyone to get here before you pull those three L10 skulls!”

 

[ZemX]

20 hours ago, Carnifax said:

Is there some trick to this "Run as a level 44" for TFs / teams? Other than "be level 44" of course.

 

No trick.  You just need, at minimum, one person who has stopped XP at 44 to host the TF.  Then everyone else is exemplared to 44, shutting off their Incarnates, including the alpha shift and ensuring enemies can be more than 3 levels above the team.  It's a nice level to be exemped to, of course, because you still get access to all the powers in your level 50 build (minus incarnates, of course).  You just need to be sure you don't have any level 48-50 IOs you're counting on for set bonuses is all.  The team lead, of course, loses out on a couple powers and a LOT of slots.

 

Easier probably to just stick to TFs that top out at 40 or less.  

[Erratic1]

7 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

No trick.  You just need, at minimum, one person who has stopped XP at 44 to host the TF.  Then everyone else is exemplared to 44, shutting off their Incarnates, including the alpha shift and ensuring enemies can be more than 3 levels above the team.  It's a nice level to be exemped to, of course, because you still get access to all the powers in your level 50 build (minus incarnates, of course).  You just need to be sure you don't have any level 48-50 IOs you're counting on for set bonuses is all.  The team lead, of course, loses out on a couple powers and a LOT of slots.

 

Easier probably to just stick to TFs that top out at 40 or less.  

 

That shouldn't be a problem since all your IOs should be attuned, no?

[ZemX]

7 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

That shouldn't be a problem since all your IOs should be attuned, no?

 

Non-attuned builds are a thing for people who never do anything but level 50 content.  But  yeah, most people would have an attuned build for exemplaring.   I suppose if you were an incorrigible min/maxer (and rich) you might make a build explicitly for L44 challenges where all the IOs  topped out at 47+5.