issue 27 Focused Feedback: Attack Typing Adjustments

[The Curator]

Attack Typing Adjustments

NPC Attack Type Adjustments

• These changes only apply to NPCs attacking players, not the reverse.
• The attack typing on all NPC attacks have been revamped to only utilize a total of two defense types: Positional & Primary Damage
• Attacks that were a 50/50 split are set to use the most exotic damage type per priority brackets (S/L < F/C < E/N < P/T). If an attack is split into two types in the same priority bracket, the most fitting type according to the power's concept decides.
• Various grenade/explosive powers that were formerly Lethal/Smashing have been set to Fire/Lethal instead.
• Enemy Energy Melee was previously 40%/60% Energy/Smashing, it is now 60%/40% Energy/Smashing and targets Energy defense.
• Added Toxic hit checks to many attacks that previously only had positional checks (like zombie vomit spits), which makes them easier to avoid with Defense.
• This does not change any Mind Control powers; whose set gimmick is that they bypass positional defenses and only use Psionic defense.
• EXAMPLE: Previously, attacks checked for defense typings of any damage types involved in the attack. For example, most Ice Blast attacks are  Cold/Smashing and when checked against a player's defenses, it would look at both Cold and Smashing defenses and use whichever was highest.

After this adjustment, an attack will only target the defense of the attack's highest damage type. Using the aforementioned Ice Blast, those attacks will now only target Cold defense, even though they have a Smashing component, as Cold is the majority damage in those attacks.

Player Attack Type Adjustments

Ranged Attack powers that should have been tagged as AoE Attack

• All/Electric Affinity/Empowering Circuit
• All/Electric Affinity/Energizing Circuit
• All/Electric Affinity/Insulating Circuit
• All/Electric Affinity/Rejuvenating Circuit
• All/Electric Control/Chain Fences
• Redirects/Galvanic Sentinel Discharge: Also changed the MaxTargets to 16 and removed its MaxTargetsExpression which was set to 16.
• Controller & Dominator/Gravity Control/Propel
• Dominator/Martial Assault/Trick Shot
• Epic/Munitions Mastery/LRM Rocket
• Mastermind/Mercenary/Spec Ops 2/Flash Bang
• Mastermind/Mecernary/Spec Ops 3/Tear Gas
• Mission Maker/Zombie/Projectile Vomit
• Sentinel/Ice Armor/Moisture Absorption: Updated Description to reflect it is an AoE attack.
• Arachnos Soldier Proxy/Heavy Burst

Melee Attack powers that should have been tagged as AoE Attack

• All player or Mastermind pet attacks flagged as Melee Attack that were Spheres or Cones with an arc of at least 30 degrees has now been set to AoE Attack.
• Electric Melee/Thunder Strike: This power is an exception and uses different rules for different powers.

Explosive Arrow and M30 Grenade 

• No longer does smashing damage, replaced with fire damage
• These attacks are now tagged as AoE/Fire (previously was AoE/Smashing/Lethal)
• The PvE damage is now 50/50 for Fire/Lethal. Scourge is now all Fire damage.

[TotalThunder]

This is a massive nerf to any character that is not a defense based armor set.

 

Like, I'm all for big and interesting changes, but this is meta shifting at a fundamental level. This literally removes the ability for a large spectrum of min/maxed characters to solo at +4/x8.

 

Also, can we get a little info on the reasoning for why this change only effects NPCs attacking Players, and not the reverse?

 

Edit:

 

Aight so maybe these changes weren't as dramatic as they sounded. Maybe I didn't give Power-dad as much credit as he deserves. 

 

My concern about slippery slopes is still there. 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by TotalThunder
I'm not some entitled boomer, I can admit when I'm wrong.

[thunderforce]

Please, can you write a little about the motivation for the NPC Attack Type Adjustments?

 

(This reads like it has a subtext of "I think they are terrible", but that's not my intention.)

[skoryy]

Huh.  I'll have to test this out on my do-everything blaster.  Good thing my main tank is capped to just about everything.

[Sovera]

Welp, that's S/L no longer being a goal on resist characters. Not sure it was that OP considering resist sets (or no resists at all like squishes have) had no DDR and it got whittled in seconds, but maybe I'm just on the side of power creep?

 

One one hand boo, but on the other it will be nice to have freedom of no longer chasing S/L. Not that I'm sure what I can chase after now except more recharge.

 

Honestly this just feels like an extra push to play defense based characters. Not being hit by debuffs is big and 45% is much easier to build to than 90%.

[TheSonicBlade]

I'm genuinely excited for this change. I can see this encouraging build diversity, giving more specialized sets moments to shine, and allowing for more freedom in the design of new enemies.

[Night]

This would actively destroy most endgame IO builds as they rely on high S/L defense from IO sets to be survivable. Really don't see why this change is needed, especially that there's actual difficulty levels being added now. Give enemies in those super-high-difficulty levels Aim, or higher accuracy as they do now, or attacks which on hit do -defense to trigger stacking -def from subsequent attacks if you want things to be higher. Again, only on those super-high-difficulties, not in regular gameplay.

 

It would also make a ton of IO sets that added easily attainable S/L defense boosts undesirable and just completely messes up buildmaking. 😞

[TotalThunder]

It occurred to me that, while this change makes sense and is probably how it should've always worked - this screams as a reactionary change to make support characters more valueable.

 

I don't think nerfing, ballpark 50% of characters is the way to do that. If I wanted to team with support characters, I wouldn't design my builds around solo play.

 

Nerfing every character doesn't make the game harder. It just makes it less fun.

Edited July 12, 2022 by TotalThunder

[Earnest Victory]

1 hour ago, The Curator said:

• These changes only apply to NPCs attacking players, not the reverse.

Why?

We are the superheroes in this situation. We have to clear entire maps. We should have a wide variety of means for avoiding or resisting most attacks. 

They are the NPCs. They exist for a single fight. 

But you've nerfed our defences and left theirs intact? 

[Crimsanotic]

3 minutes ago, TheSonicBlade said:

I'm genuinely excited for this change. I can see this encouraging build diversity, giving more specialized sets moments to shine, and allowing for more freedom in the design of new enemies.

That's not really how that works. Defense doesn't equate to diversity. Additionally, there's not as many Energy/Negative/Ranged or Fire/Cold/AoE defense set bonuses as there are Smashing/Lethal/Melee so it doesn't even really encourage people to try and build for one of those other two things more than they already are. I'm also not sure how this change allows them to have "more freedom" with enemies either.

[Crasical]

Quote

DEFENSE CHANGE
Arachnoid claw attacks now prioritizes toxic defense
Arachnos tarantula mistress claw & Claw shred now prioritizes toxic defense
Arachnos toxic tarantula all damaging attacks now prioritize toxic defense
Knives of Artemis poison dart prioritizes toxic defense

Arachnos fire taranutal burning claws now prioritize fire defense
Carnival Seneschal torch attack now prioritizes fire defense
IDF heavy troopers rockets prioritize fire defense
Nemesis LT lance Rifles & Jaeger explosions now prioritize fire
Rikti Magus fireball prioritizes fire
Potentially a lot more depending on how broad the grenade change is

CoT Ice Casters now prioritize cold with two attacks
Council/5th column riflemen cryonic shots now prioritize cold defense
Crey Cryo Tank attacks (Except Freeze Ray) now target cold defense
Talons of Vengeance Spirtiualist & Prophetess & Oracle & Sibyl (ice) now prioritize cold
TOV Keres Deaths' Embrace now prioritizes Cold (prev. also negative)

CoT Succubus blackclaw now prioritizes negative energy defense.
Council Vampyri Shadow Punch now prioritizes negative defense.
Council Galaxy Gravimetric Snare & Gravity Well now prioritize negative defense
TOV Keres Enervating bolt now prioritizes Negative (prev. also cold)

GRENADE CHANGE
Longbow potentially very effected by grenade/rocket rework, nearly the entire faction has a grenade attack (They're already basically just lethal/fire outside of bosses though)
Council/5th column grenade rework, possible rocket launcher rework
Crey Crisis Unit grenade launcher rework, possible rocket launcher rework
Malta tacop/engineer/op officer effected by grenade rework.
Titans affected IF grenade rework affects rockets (Right now they do straight lethal)
Nemesis Snipers maybe effected if storm rifle is treated as 'a grenade'
PPD Enforcer affected by grenade change

I went through most of the enemy groups that I could think of at the back-end of the game and this is what I came up with; specifically showing the ones that would get moved from smashing/lethal/energy to a more exotic damage type.

I don't think that the proposed change is *nearly* as far reaching as some have claimed it is, it's a handful of enemies per villain group and Smashing/lethal/energy defense would *still* top of the heap as far as enemy attack prevalence, just less so than before.

The only part that I'm concerned with is the toxic-targeting attacks, Arachnos and Arachnoids are *already* nasty and don't really need the help.

[dom9630]

This game was always meant to be a power-fantasy game. Players being able to 'break the game' by being a bit OP via smart build making and hard-earned incarnates I feel was the intention all along.

 

That being said, I don't think this compliments build variety, rather this is going to dissuade even more people from playing non defense-oriented sets. Not to mention this completely destroys the desire to play blasters/other ATs that can only survive +4 x8 content on their own because of the way it worked previously.

 

Are we going to be getting multiple free respecs if this ends up going live? Because everyone is going to need a respec unless you happen to be super reflexes.

 

 

[Captain Powerhouse]

36 minutes ago, TotalThunder said:

Also, can we get a little info on the reasoning for why this change only effects NPCs attacking Players, and not the reverse?

 

Player attacks will get the same treatment eventually. Sonic Attack had the treatment done on this pass [see that set's specific patch notes for more info]. More player sets will follow but not certain to make it into Page 4.

[Fomsie]

This almost feels both punitive and like a precursor for bigger changes, the type where someone wants to remove the free form nature of the game, and replace it with a system where you are required to have different types of character classes and powers to handle content, instead of players just being able to build up their characters and make do. Like someone doesn't like the way people are playing, and now wants to force a different game style on everyone. Just doesn't seem to make sense to change such a significant core mechanic at this stage of the game, especially with all the issues that the current defensive system allowed us to fix individually.

[Super Atom]

Honestly? I appreciate the effort here to make changes that are bold and so widespread but this one wasn't it.

 

I don't really get it though, if the intention of the change was for design reasons, couldn't you just apply this to your new TF/Arc enemies or was this another one of those everything or nothing modifications?

[Vanden]

Remember folks, it's important to test the changes yourself. Testing in closed beta has shown this to have only a minor effect overall, with only a few exceptions.

[skoryy]

4 minutes ago, Crasical said:

I went through most of the enemy groups that I could think of at the back-end of the game and this is what I came up with; specifically showing the ones that would get moved from smashing/lethal/energy to a more exotic damage type.

I don't think that the proposed change is *nearly* as far reaching as some have claimed it is, it's a handful of enemies per villain group and Smashing/lethal/energy defense would *still* top of the heap as far as enemy attack prevalence, just less so than before.

The only part that I'm concerned with is the toxic-targeting attacks, Arachnos and Arachnoids are *already* nasty and don't really need the help.

 

I'm waiting on EOD here to give this a test run, but I really don't see that big a deal for when I do a Council run on my blaster.  Other groups, well, I didn't solo those with her to begin with.

[Keen]

2 hours ago, The Curator said:

Various grenade/explosive powers that were formerly Lethal/Smashing have been set to Fire/Lethal instead.

 

Can we change the Lethal part to Smashing? Lethal is cuts/slashes/perforations, while Smashing I think applies better to the kinetic element of explosions.

[Ston]

Just now, Keen said:

 

Can we change the Lethal part to Smashing? Lethal is cuts/slashes/perforations, while Smashing I think applies better to the kinetic element of explosions.

 

I was thinking the lethal component was for shrapnel

[KaizenSoze]

Sigh. Please, test the actually result of the change.

 

I have been and it's not a big deal.

 

Arachnos Toxic Spiders got a nastier and Lord Recluse requires more tanking.

 

This mostly effects specific powers, not entire groups. For instance, CoT:Ice thorns melee attacks are more dangerous.

 

Entire mobs group have not been upgraded.

 

I could solo before that patch at 4x8 with my blaster. I can still solo at 4x8 after the patch.

 

Note, most armor sets got some toxic and psi defense which they didn't have before.

[BrandX]

I like the idea of this change.  Though, I'm not sure on all the implementation of it.  Sonic Attack being more Energy?  Makes sense.  Energy Melee being more Energy?  Could go either way.

 

What about things like Ice Blasts?  Does it make sense that it's more cold damage to be hit by an ice ball?  Smashing seems to be the real defense type.  While Cold Breath would seem to go to Cold Defense.

Edited July 13, 2022 by BrandX

[Keen]

Just now, Ston said:

I was thinking the lethal component was for shrapnel

Do all grenades have shrapnel? (Honest question)

[Wavicle]

This restores proper difficulty to the 35+ game. Good change.

[Crimsanotic]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Remember folks, it's important to test the changes yourself. Testing in closed beta has shown this to have only a minor effect overall, with only a few exceptions.

I can't imagine it has a minor effect if you enjoy soloing on +4/x8 on literally every character. No shot this doesn't make doing so significantly harder (and without spamming inspirations, potentially impossible on some characters) that could do it before, even if there was some difficulty with it.

 

Alternatively, characters that innately have defense, like Energy Aura, were uneffected (and Energy Aura was also buffed so it's even better lmao).

[Ruin Mage]

This only affects a FEW enemy groups and only a few enemies.