Convince Me to Not Give Up Playing AoE Tanks

[Solarverse]

Recently found a little bit of time to comeback to the game. I decided to roll the classic Fire/Fire Tank for that AoE goodness and nostalgia. I'm beginning to think that was a huge mistake. What I am finding is that my AoE honestly doesn't matter much. Even if I try to pull ahead a bit early to try and stack a group on me before releasing burn, players will both knock back and lock down targets which scatters them all over the place and far away from my AoE range.

At this point, I'm thinking to myself, why bother? I can't bring myself to do it anymore. I think at this point in game, the only real viable Tank is a single target focused Tank...and if you are going to focus on just being single target, hell, why play a Tank, might as well just play a Brute, Scrapper or Stalker.

I don't know, people...I think the Knock Back and lock them down where ever they stand players won that battle. The fight between the two play styles has been an ongoing things since the very day this game was released, I think that battle has been lost and we might as well just give up playing with stack and burn. It just makes AoEs pretty useless on a Melee Tank, IMO.

I primarily play PUGs these days, so I know that has something to do with it, but at the end of the day, I just honestly don't see much reason to pick up AoEs on a Tank anymore.

And this isn't a "nerf knock back" thread. I don't have the energy to make that fight, I am just saying that fight has been lost, so why bother using AoE at all when I could just focus on hitting harder with single target abilities instead?

[Spaghetti Betty]

I can't help you on the "teams blowing up my mob" thing. That's an age old gripe. Your best bet there is to learn how fast your team clears mobs, pull ahead early and herd up the next mob for them to blast away.

 

As far as Tanks with strong AoE, try Fire/Ice. Burn + Frost will pancake most mobs and you get them very early. Frozen Aura is icing on the cake. You'll have solid single target as well with Freezing Touch and Greater Ice Sword.

[Six-Six]

I may be overly biased, but I think the problem stems from PUGs. in those kind of teams, everyone is just doing his own thing while trying to get through the TF/mission as fast as possible. Not only do they not coordinate, but I get the feeling they're trying to one-up each other by having the most kills... I dunno. I myself am not fond of PUGs. Maybe it's because i've been on really good teams where the members have coordinated attacks. For example, when I run missions with my friend, he and I --both blasters-- have an unspoken rule that he takes the right half of the mob while I take the left so as not to waste both of our snipes on one bloke. I've also witnessed probably one of the best "tanking" I've seen in years: this was when a tank jumps across the room which was filled with 2 mobs and us to yank aggro off a scrapper with a sliver of health left. Very impressive. And when we go for the pull, the tank of the team does his thing while the rest of us wait the ambush... except the stalker. Nobody minds the stalker. 😃 

[Erratic1]

The best PUG experience I have had is with team of few members. When there are only 2-4 of you everyone thinks about what needs to be done. You could try recruiting smaller teams.

 

 

[Max Firepower]

I was on a Pug yesterday and I faced the same issue.  I just said something like “The control is great!  If possible, try to hold off on the AoE immobilize for 1-2 sec? I can hit more than 1 guy at a time, I am heavy AoE at this level.”  It worked. 

[Astralock]

If you are going to PUG, then lead the PUGs.  When someone joins that does a lot of knockback, calmly explain that knockback is detrimental to the team, and that he or she should slot knockback to knockdown IO enhancements.  Explain how to obtain them.  Then kick the person from the team, and let him or her know that he or she will be more than welcome back once the KB to KD IO enhancements are slotted.

 

Also, grab Fold Space to deal with immobilized or held mobs.  Bring them to you.

[Solarverse]

@Astralock and @Max Firepower

I used to ask the team for such things, but I have been in some insanely heated arguments on these boards with proponents of the Knock Back style of game play. For them, being able to knock back and scatter is just as important as me wishing to keep targets stacked on me as a Tank. Just the simple asking them nicely not to do so tends to enrage them, or cause them to do it even more in spite. So I have learned just to not say anything at all and either deal with it, or excuse myself from the team. When I was younger, I wouldn't have given a damn if they got mad or not and would have kicked them, but, I'm getting older and my tolerance is a hell of a lot more now than it was then, heh. So I just deal with it and try to find other options that won't require anyone else to change how they play, hence my realization that playing an AoE Tank may not fit the current meta of the PUG game.

[High_Beam]

When I am PUGing I try to watch the aggro grabber's indicators and roll from there.  When I am on my Blapper there is a lot of AoE so I hold my water until they have the herd piled up before unleashing the Five Furies (BoS, Scorpion's Tail, Hail of Bullets (Backflip), Empty Clips, Bullet Rain).  I like my aggro grabbers making tight mobs so I let them do their thing and its win win.  Do I always get it right, nope.  I have not had a aggro grabber lose their mind over issues like this but I can imagine it happens.

[ZemX]

16 hours ago, Solarverse said:

I think at this point in game, the only real viable Tank is a single target focused Tank

 

This hasn't been my PuG experience.  KB scatter is rare.  Controllers/Doms immobilizing spread out spawns is more common but still not an every team thing either.  That stuff doesn't just affect AoE tankers but ANY melee AoE and half of ranged AoE powers too.

[Omega-202]

Fold Space is a game changer on Tanks.  Doesn't matter if they scatter, you can just pull them back in.  

 

Also, kill faster.  I don't worry about scatter on my AoE tanks because proccing the right attacks to high heaven means the 4/8 mob is down to bosses after my initial volley.  Then who cares about scatter?

[Bay]

On 8/22/2022 at 5:05 AM, Omega-202 said:

Fold Space is a game changer on Tanks.  Doesn't matter if they scatter, you can just pull them back in.

Scrolled down to comment the same if it hadn't already been stated. I have, currently, only one Tank with Fold Space and every time I play it I tell myself I need to respec some of my other Tanks into the power. Not just because it overrides overeager Controllers/Dominators, but it's also just massive amounts of fun. It, in theory, should be even better with the Page 4 aggro changes for grabbing the aggro of absolutely everything within its range. A Destiny sized pseudo-taunt. 

[ZemX]

15 hours ago, Bay said:

It, in theory, should be even better with the Page 4 aggro changes for grabbing the aggro of absolutely everything within its range.

 

On a team it shouldn't be any different.  Aggro spreads to teammates, so outside of the same 16 targets you've always been able to hit with it, anything you aggro beyond the cap should spill onto teammates like before, not just stand there shooting you.

[Sovera]

This is not a Tanker issue. It's a City of Heroes issue. It's true that ST is more interesting than AoE unless solo heavy. Anything and every thing melts when a full team unleashes AoE and then what? 3 mobs still alive? No point AoEing them down.

 

With mass immobilizes and knockbacks there is not much to be done other than ask not to. If people persist then politely excuse yourself and go do something else. They want to have fun exploding mobs and Controllers want to feel useful and hit their mass immobilizes? That's fine, more power to them. But you don't need to be there.

 

If after asking people continue then I abandon a spawn if I people mass immobilize or, worse, AoE KB back the lot. I just move on to the next one and let them deal with their actions.

 

 

True that people don't like being told not to play. I've had a Controller doorsit in a TF because I requested once too often to go easy on the mass immobilizes. Fine by me though, between dealing with fly trapped mobs or play with one less person I'll take the second option.

 

This is not a popular opinion nor is it welcomed by Controllers who want to feel useful, but unless at max level and fighting hard mobs I find CC just an hindrance. Fears, mass immobilizes, mass stuns, mass whatever, mobs just stop, wander around, whatever, instead of being glued to me. Controllers do have a place but it's on hard content and outside of that being ST focused and buffing/debuffing is just more helpful.

 

But I accept it is not FUN so the last resort (which I never bothered going for) is forming a team and not taking them.

 

On 8/22/2022 at 4:05 PM, Omega-202 said:

Fold Space is a game changer on Tanks.  Doesn't matter if they scatter, you can just pull them back in.  

 

Also, kill faster.  I don't worry about scatter on my AoE tanks because proccing the right attacks to high heaven means the 4/8 mob is down to bosses after my initial volley.  Then who cares about scatter?

 

I felt the same, but it requires taking two extraneous powers to reach it, or to dump our preferred travel power and use Teleport. Also at roughly 30 seconds it is only up every two spawns for most teams. I would give someone's left arm for it to be a one power wonder pick even if I had to redo builds to make room for that fourth pool.

[Yellowjacket]

The role for tanks(and brutes) in the current meta is basically just to abuse the -range debuff on taunt for select encounters and to take the alpha on a pack. You fire off an AoE or two on a mob to soften/gather them, then be the first to jump to the next mob and repeat. Load up on -Res procs in your AoEs if you want to add some utility. 

[Troo]

@Solarverse Convince you? Nope.

 

AoE melee attacks can definitely be wasted on many teams, your assessment is accurate. PUGs by nature can end up pitting Fun against Effectiveness.

 

The more folks on a team the worse it can get. Therefore, smaller teams might appreciate a strong AoE tank more.

 

 

Similar can be said for other ATs on full PUGs. We simply might not get to use all our tools or it might be best not to use all our tools when things get steamrollerish.

 

 

[Nemu]

Fire/fire is not really a high damage AoE tank.

 

It has a good number of AoEs but the Fire melee AoEs are mediocre at best. Combustion and FSC take up about 6 seconds of cast time, and that's a lot of time for a mediocre amount of damage with standard slotting, and it's a lot of time for PuG teammates to mess with mob positioning.

 

I believe the gripe here is rooted partly in the inability of that combo to kill stuff fast. I think there is a psychological "feel bad" of having mobs knocked about before you can kill a few of them, and I wonder if your perspective would change if you played a high AoE damage tank instead.

 

I'd recommend playing an AoE tank with good alpha strike capabilities and compare that experience against your Fire/Fire tank, like a Rad/SS proc build.

[Psyonico]

Wait... Fire/Fire isn't a good AoE tank?

 

What am I doing wrong on mine then?

[Cancrusher]

I have a great Rad/Titan AOE tank.  Would say he's certainly my most survivable character and probably my all-around-best built character.  Yes, like any tank, he tanks better if the mobs can glom onto him and the other team members don't knock them away.  I still enjoy playing him, though, regardless, and I don't expect other players to play in a way that maximizes my own enjoyment of the AT.

 

Did you ever consider how boring that could get for other players?  Just waiting for the mobs to circle around me and then punch/blast them like fish in a barrel?  I'm not surprised everyone doesn't want to do that all the time (or even most of the time, unless the mission/TF is so challenging that that tactic is necessary to succeed, which is, of course, a different story).

 

Now, if the knockback and premature holds REALLY wreck your enjoyment of playing a Tank then, yes, I actually do agree with you that the answer is to find a different AT to enjoy.  I quite like single-target scrappers and brutes, myself.  You should be able to have a great time with one of those.

[FUBARczar]

ST damage it's King 👑

[MoonSheep]

On 9/6/2022 at 11:41 AM, Troo said:

@Solarverse Convince you? Nope.

 

AoE melee attacks can definitely be wasted on many teams, your assessment is accurate. PUGs by nature can end up pitting Fun against Effectiveness.

 

The more folks on a team the worse it can get. Therefore, smaller teams might appreciate a strong AoE tank more.

 

 

Similar can be said for other ATs on full PUGs. We simply might not get to use all our tools or it might be best not to use all our tools when things get steamrollerish.

 

 

 

this has been said a few times in this thread and a few others lately, i think it’s a great idea

 

running teams with around 4 or 5 people encourages a lot more cooperation

[Pazradym]

Just a quick add, but as someone running 2 AoE auras plus some AoE attacks, my favorite pick up in build has been fold space in the teleportation pool.  Knock back can still be a problem is used poorly, but little communication usually fixes that. (Hey, do that big AoE knockback right as we open yeah?  Thanks!  Then just port them all back to you.)  Honestly it usually makes teams happy to boot, as now they can get even more of a group of mobs rooted/held/etc, all nice a centered around me and my taunt aura.  May not be a perfect match for every build, but I definitely love it.  And with a healthy cooldown reduction its up pretty much whenever you want it, or at least dang near.

 

I fully plan on working it into any PBAoE centric build I have in the future.

[dtjunkie]

Have you tried SS? Take Hasten, add some LoTGs in there, and then go to town with a proc'ed out rage fueled footstomp that recharges every few seconds. And you have KO blow for whatever boss is left. 

[Yogi82]

You can always do like my buddy does when he gets disgruntled at impulsive trollers and blasters...He just turns off his aggro aura and lets them have at them...LOL