Self-ish vs Self-less builds...

[Sovera]

5 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

Nope. Can't make me. Rarely take Hasten, either, despite the apparent (at least in some quarters) "It's NEEEDED in EVERY build!" Nope.

 

And I rarely take Leadership in any form, unless I'm a MM. Maybe if I have an extra pick or two, or I'm working on a solidly team-centric build. I build my characters to be who they are, not what numbers are where on someone's spreadsheet.

 

Ok?

 

👍

[Snarky]

7 hours ago, Six-Six said:

The wifi gods wouldn't let me play through the lag, so I was stuck in character creation. 

I present to you, oh Great Snark Man, End Game. Rad/Dark Brute.
I tried to work in your penchant for vampires and such. And he's awfully gaunt because... well, he's got a problem recovering.

I'd be very happy to send you the costume file. Haven't checked if the name was available or not.
That's it. Don't mind me. Back to your regular banter boys. 😃

 

Beautiful work!  Thank you.  Right now I am still grinding "the wal mart mmorpg" project I started a couple months ago.  Making fast progress right now, finally.  sheesh.  

 

But this is inspiring.  Makes me want to jump in and write a backstory lol.  I am pretty familiar with the creator, i can see what parts you used.  Idea firmly tucked up my sleeve.  I wonder how that monster would play lol

[Yomo Kimyata]

Is there any reason that anyone who is running hard mode content shouldn’t have a Build 2 (or 3) devoted to Leadership?

 

*checks inventory for sale in /AH*
 

Nope, no reason at all!  In fact, you would be a MONSTER if you didn’t!

[Bastille Boy]

Except for two emps (one Green Machine, one built for PVP), all my toons are built to be able to solo. I team with all my toons at least some of the time. The PVP emp is the only toon with dual builds.

 

I almost always take both Maneuvers and Weave. If I only have room in my build for two power pool defense toggles, I take Maneuvers over Combat Jumping or Hover because of the team benefit.

 

Whether I take the other Leadership toggles depends on what I have room for. I think my Rad/Sonic defender and the Green Machine emp are the only toons I have that take all three toggles. For Green Machine, Assault and Tactics are both required. There's room in the Rad/Sonic for all three toggles because both powersets have so many skippable powers. (I take five powers in Rad and six in Sonic.) For most other powerset combinations, taking all the Leadership toggles requires sacrificing something I think would benefit me and my teams more. I'd say I take either Tactics or Assault about 40% of the time, more often Tactics.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Altruism doesn't exist. If you take a power that benefits you, either directly or because it makes those around you better and since you're on a team you're better for it, it's selfish. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with being selfish when it benefits everyone.

[Bill Z Bubba]

19 hours ago, RobotLove said:

Tanker:

• Ranged damage modifier increased from 0.5 to 0.8, Melee damage modifier increased from 0.8 to 0.95,
  • Bruise has been removed in favour of a flat damage scale increase.
• Buff modifiers increased to match Controller values.
• Damage buff cap increased from 400% to 500%.

 

...

[Spectral]

So... selfish means not taking Leadership pool... that is a very one-sided view of the equation, imho.

 

First off, you can only have 4 pools total...

many will argue about certain pools being mandatory (haste, tough+weave, ...) - though this is really a preference...

some will say combatjump+acrobatic is a must for support ATs.

 

Personally I would not enjoy running a dominator without perma-haste ( = perma-dom) as well as tough+weave.

In the same vein, having tough+weave on a Blaster is pretty much the only way, if you don't want to make rise of the phoenix part of your attack rotation (I hate face-planting over and over... not fun for me).

 

I love playing Defenders/Corrupters/Controllers... so I usually bring quite a bit to the team... however, unless I need Maneuvers for LotG, I will usually favor Sorcery for the Spirit Ward... which I just looooove, imho vastly underrated skill (absorb is a huge survivability boost on whomever you buff with this... put it on your tank in 4star-ITF, love it).

 

I do have Increase Density on my Kinetics but you can be sure I will not cast the status-protection on each team member every minute, over and over and over on 2-3 hour TFs... not going to happen: my brain would melt after 30-45 minutes... now we could argue about clearmind/increasedensity/xxx becoming a group status protection to compensate for Faraday Cage from Electric Support... but that is a discussion you will have to take up with the devs (I am pessimistic about whether this will happen).

And people saying "zzzz" to be given that status-protection buff on demand: as a Kin or any Support AT, I'm usually one of the first to get CCed by mob AOE mezz... so we're back to Sorcery for Rune of Protection... so I get my toggles back and can buff/debuff/heal/...

 

Making yet another pool "mandatory" through team pressure (and make people feel bad for not being "teamfriendly") will push the FOTM/cookie-cutter even more... you can have a max of 4 pools... making 3 pools (sometimes 4) mandatory means you take away variety.

 

Are there statistics about what pools never get taken in level 50 builds...? could be interesting to check out and maybe fix that by making other pools more attractive?

If... if... in an imaginary world where I can take more pools... I'd be very interested in taking Experimental Injection from the Experimentation Pool ... on my toons with their own status protection toggles (tanks/stalkers/VEAT/...) and then on-demand (say "zzz") buff the squishies that get mezzed by mobs... yes, the MAG depends on the AT using the power, but it lasts for 60 sec much like all the other status protection buffs... but as an AT that is hard to mezz, you can actually de-mezz your fellow teammates when mobs throw around aoe mezzes like crazy (Crey, Longbow, Carnies, ...)

[PLVRIZR]

On 9/18/2022 at 12:12 AM, Six-Six said:

 

 

 

I'd name him "Polarizing Gloom"

[MistressOhm]

As I see it, it depends on the powerset and the playstyle. 

 

As stated, some archetypes get more out of Leadership than others, so it makes sense for them to devote power picks to the pool.   As I often run Defenders, I find Leadership works decently well as a solo player, but really shines as a team player.  Not only are you actively buffing/debuffing/healing, you're passively buffing just by being there.   

 

Not sure how it works with VEAT's (they all get variants of the Leadership pool in their secondaries as either passives or toggles) but that's because I rarely team on my VEAT characters. I suspect (?) it'd be significant, otherwise why put these things into the actual powersets right? 

 

As a Kinetic, I'm used to being in the dust cloud, along with all of the melee'ers.  That's where I'm effective, that's where I can rejuice and repair easily.  So Leadership's effective range is not an issue (until some sap of a scrapper goes charging off to another room because SCRAPPERLOCK! sorry bub, you get out of range, you're on your own.)

 

Is running Maneuvers as an on-demand toggle just as effective as everyone slotting for Defense and/or packing a box full of Luck candy?  Cool.  Glad I could help.  If not, then yeah, perhaps it's not as crucial a build element.  

[Doomguide2005]

 

2 hours ago, MistressOhm said:

 

Is running Maneuvers as an on-demand toggle just as effective as everyone slotting for Defense and/or packing a box full of Luck candy?  Cool.  Glad I could help.  If not, then yeah, perhaps it's not as crucial a build element.  

*Grabs gasoline*

You know those formally really expensive PvP Gladiator +3% defense IOs, yeah the ones that went for 2 billion inf or more on Live.

 

It's the equivalent (or better) of giving yourself and all your allies within 60ft the equivalent at the low low rate of .39 end/sec or less.   But then someone went and made them relatively cheap and blew Yomo's the market. 🙄

Edited September 21, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[Bill Z Bubba]

21 hours ago, MistressOhm said:

(until some sap of a scrapper goes charging off to another room because SCRAPPERLOCK! sorry bub, you get out of range, you're on your own.)

 

As a scrapper, pretty sure this is the way.

[Wavicle]

I take Maneuvers and/or Assault and Tactics on a ton of toons.

 

Most Ranged toons I get Tactics to help keep their Fast Snipes at high damage. On tanks and dps I usually just take Maneuvers or Maneuvers and Tactics, especially those who lack +Perception. Most Controllers and Dominators, all Masterminds. Assault I'll take on support toons to help the whole team, sometimes Maneuvers as well.

[Ukase]

For me, I tend to take them on most characters - and I solo a lot. It's not about self-ish vs self-less. It's about the set bonuses. 

When you're a defender, Corruptor or controller - the buffs are a LOT better than when you're on a blaster or scrapper or brute. It's almost a no-brainer to get them, if you have the endurance to manage them. And, candidly, without clever slotting, not every build will. 

I've got a fire/time controller that struggles to run these constantly, and I have a build to respec into it for better endurance management, but respecs on a level 50 character I've leveled up cause me to hesitate, because 1) I hate to find out my new build is worse than the one before and 2) I hate respecs in general, having to clear the tray, replace powers in the tray, do something with enhancements the new build won't use, get new enhancements to replace those...it's quite tedious. 

 

The leadership pool is not all it's cracked up to be when you're running a brute, tank, scrapper or stalker. The value of these buffs are not very good at all. Better off grabbing weave than maneuvers. IF you can grab both, that's all well and good - but it's going to cost you access to another power pool. And that's not so easily managed, particularly if you love Combat Jumping and the control it gives you, Super Speed, and then of course, there's fold space. A lot of folks really, really like Fold Space. And who can blame them? I can do without it on some characters, but others almost need to have it. And then there's the fight pool that almost without exception, every melee character will take. 
Often, there's just no room in the build for the meager 2.X % that maneuvers gives. It's a great set mule, but it also drains endurance - and lets be open, many of us will zip through so many missions when teamed up, unless it's hard mode, nobody needs that buff. Useful? sure. Necessary? Certainly not. That's what inspirations and defensive amplifiers are for. Not to mention other teammates may have cold shields and such to provide. Stacking leadership is really only useful in difficult content like HM ITF & Aeon. Beyond that, it's kind of useless, other than as set mules for non-squish characters. 

And, really, that's what I use them for, set mules. I like Assault - nice damage buff I don't have to think about. Maneuvers has a nice set mule opportunity. Same with Vengeance. Tactics - meh. Useful for the challenging stuff, but beyond that, the kismet 6% is a better option for most of my builds. If I can fit it - and can handle the end drain, great. But if not, nobody is going to miss it. After all - they should all have the kismet 6% right? I mean, who wouldn't? You'd have to be really selfish to rely on teammates for your accuracy, right? 

 

See what I did there? 

In all seriousness, it's all about your build and what you can get away with. There are thousands (if not more) of ways to make any given character that are going to be quite good, depending on your playstyle. They don't all need to use leadership. 



 

[Ironblade]

11 hours ago, Ukase said:

It's almost a no-brainer to get them, if you have the endurance to manage them. And, candidly, without clever slotting, not every build will. 

I've got a fire/time controller that struggles to run these constantly, and I have a build to respec into it for better endurance management,

Toggle Man laughs at your feeble endurance management.  Toggle Man runs 16 toggles in combat.

 

 

11 hours ago, Ukase said:

The leadership pool is not all it's cracked up to be when you're running a brute, tank, scrapper or stalker. The value of these buffs are not very good at all.

Please note that the tanker numbers were changed a few months back to match the controller numbers.  Several of us checked personally and updated the Wiki accordingly.

 

[Doomguide2005]

     Whose selfish?

The player wanting everyone else to carry Leadership so his Leadership stacks to Awesome or the player who chooses another power instead?

     This entire game isn't necessary.  At best arguments can be made that humans need entertainment outlets for health of which this game is but a very small slice of the pie.  We play ultimately because it's fun, it stirs our creativity, something that brings us happiness. 

     I tend to have Leadership on many characters including my main a Claws/SR scrapper (Maneuvers and Tactics) which I toggle on or off based on the situation if solo.  If teamed I almost always have them running.  My Empaths always carry them ... it was an SG requirement for the build (Assault and Tactics) by a certain level.  They rarely take Maneuvers because of Fortitude and the way Green Machine works.  I have used Maneuvers as a mule for LotG in some GM builds as recharge is paramount to the team builds in general.

     Ultimately I have Leadership on any given build for both 'selfish and unselfish' reasons.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Doomguide2005
Typos

[roleki]

On 9/17/2022 at 4:17 PM, Krimson said:

Players should build for themselves. Make yourself as self sufficient as possible and THEN worry about everyone else. 

 

Pretty much this.  I only take Leadership on characters that are in the rear with the gear.  Otherwise, I build with the goal of not needing attention from the people in the rear with the gear.  

 

That's not being selfish, that's being a good teammate - it frees up the support types to concentrate their efforts on patching up the teammates with selfish builds, or, god forbid, bringing their debuffs and attacks to bear on the mob we're trying to mow through.

 

It's not that I don't appreciate support types, in fact, that's mainly what I run.  I just don't like the dynamic of a glass cannon that needs (expects?) dedicated support staff to remain upright. 

 

While that is a 'thing' in comic books (like, Cloak & Dagger) it's not THE thing in comic books, and it would suck if it was THE thing in CoH.  Luckily, it's not.

[Sir Myshkin]

On 9/21/2022 at 4:40 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

On 9/20/2022 at 7:06 PM, MistressOhm said:

(until some sap of a scrapper goes charging off to another room because SCRAPPERLOCK! sorry bub, you get out of range, you're on your own.)

 

As a scrapper, pretty sure this is the way.

 

This is the way.

[Doomguide2005]

19 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

This is the way.

Fine, fine you get this hall.  *zooms* off the other way (Maneuvers and Tactics running 😜).  

[Neiska]

8 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

This is the way.

 

[Darkaiser]

After reading 2 of the 4 pages of this thread I feel that I have the gist of the conversation enough to comment.

 

1) I'm not sure about any of the rest of you, but I play this game to have fun. We remember fun, right? I'm trying to live out my (way too) numerous superhero fantasies and interact with people socially even if it's from a distance. I build and play my characters to have fun, not to adhere to the build restrictions of another player.

 

2) Unless you run with a regular group, you'd better get used to the idea that MOST people won't have Leadership powers. That's because many players are more casual about their builds (there's that Fun thing again) and aren't building to fill some perceived gap in the team.

 

3) Many of the reasons cited for having Leadership powers won't apply to many PUGs. The bonus to hitting even-con mobs was mentioned but when was the last time you saw a team fighting even-con mobs? I've been on teams where the levels were all over the place and so many of the powers were totally unslotted and we STILL smoked +1 and +2 without thinking about it. Blind? Most of the PI teams simply avoid Arachnos and Malta (or anything other than Council, really). The benefits being cited for half the team or more having Leadership powers only come into their own at higher levels of play (which many players never reach), against specific enemies (which many players avoid), or in niche situations.

 

4) Not every player has a dedicated Farmer or plays the Market for Inf. Personally, I would LOVE to have the half a billion Inf that some players say that they spent on ONE build. Asking everyone to 'mitigate the End issues' that come from taking Leadership powers is pompous and arrogant IMHO. The OP sounds like he wants everyone to build their toons to help HIM or HER to play which is the height of selfishness. So what if the team is having trouble hitting at +3? They either move slower or turn the Diff down. If that's too slow for you, find another team instead of asking everyone to build so they can keep up to the pace YOU want.

 

5) I'll take Leadership on all of my toons if you promise to shadow me with your End buffs to pay for the cost or buy me the Procs to keep me from sucking wind because I'm running powers that YOU wanted me to bring.