Suggestion: Reduction in complexity for the Invention system.

[ZaranBlack]

So one of the coolest things about City of Heroes is that It is not equipment based.  Or at least it was not until the invention system.  But now we have this incredibly complex system of salvage and recipes and frankly it is incredibly bloated and complex.

 

What I suggest is pretty simple:  Instead of recipes requiring specific salvage to complete, why not change it so for common recipes just make it require a certain number of common salvage.  For Uncommon recipes, they require uncommon salvage.  And of course for Rare Recipes, they require rare salvage.   But please lets get rid of this need to collect certain salvage!   Its a dinosaur of game design.  

 

While I would suggest that it be one for one with our current system.  Like  a rare recipe would require 1 rare, 1 uncommon, and 2 common salvage of any kind, this can be tweaked for game balance or simplicity.  Like a rare recipe might need 3 rare salvage.  Or if it's a purple 5 rare salvage.  I dont know the intention of how rare certain recipes are meant to be so I would leave that up to devs who have access to that sort of thing.  It could require a few updates or testing to see how it effects the game economy as a whole.  But I know that for the most part salvage is salvage on /ah and they are pretty much worth the same influence in given categories.

 

The reasons why I want to change this system are that trying to organize a salvage system in my super group base is a freaking nightmare and how incredibly difficult it is to show new players how to use this system.  It should NOT require youtube videos and googling or constant diving into /ah to be able to use this otherwise fun and rewarding invention system.  

[JasperStone]

Interesting ...

How would this impact the market?

[ZaranBlack]

I really have no idea.  I do know that salvage in the market is priced about the same. whether this new system will make those prices change?  Who knows?  But I am also not sure that in the grand scheme if it really matters as market buyers will adjust to it and move on.   

[lemming]

It's an interesting idea.  Shouldn't have a huge impact on the market since everything of the same rarity is pooled.

Put a Rare Black Blood of the Earth up for sale and it may be bought as a Hamidon Goo.

So crafting would really just be subject to the same pooling under your proposal.

 

Some impact since people wouldn't have to be selective.

 

Does get rid of a lot of flavor, but is it needed flavor?

 

This would also be needed to be done for the Empowerment stations then.  (Should be the same area since they act as recipes, but may just look like it)

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, ZaranBlack said:

So one of the coolest things about City of Heroes is that It is not equipment based.  Or at least it was not until the invention system.  But now we have this incredibly complex system of salvage and recipes and frankly it is incredibly bloated and complex.

 

... complex?

 

It's as complex as a simple recipe. There's no guesswork. Get this recipe, get these pieces, pay this much, and it's all spelled out in the recipe itself. There's no element of chance in what'll come out, if you have X pieces, you'll get Y result. 

 

As far as explaining crafting to a newbie? That's what the tutorial in the university is for. Walks them through it, even gives them the salvage, and they end up with a common IO at the end, too.

 

Frankly, I'd hate to see the various salvage go away for generic "Common, uncommon, rare." How utterly bland. The salvage often has some flavor to it, as well as progression of what it is. It'd be like going from story arcs to mission collections, where instead of investigating this, then that leads to a rescue, you just get nondescript "Defeat everyone. Rescue generic hostage," with no flavor at all.

[Astralock]

9 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

... complex?

 

It's as complex as a simple recipe. There's no guesswork. Get this recipe, get these pieces, pay this much, and it's all spelled out in the recipe itself. There's no element of chance in what'll come out, if you have X pieces, you'll get Y result. 

 

As far as explaining crafting to a newbie? That's what the tutorial in the university is for. Walks them through it, even gives them the salvage, and they end up with a common IO at the end, too.

 

Frankly, I'd hate to see the various salvage go away for generic "Common, uncommon, rare." How utterly bland. The salvage often has some flavor to it, as well as progression of what it is. It'd be like going from story arcs to mission collections, where instead of investigating this, then that leads to a rescue, you just get nondescript "Defeat everyone. Rescue generic hostage," with no flavor at all.

 

One issue though is that, unlike live, new characters aren't introduced to the tutorial in Steel Canyon, Cap au Diable, or Imperial City.  You have to be aware that it exists and go look for it.  Considering how many characters I see running around at level 50 without a single IO enhancement set, I think that removing the tutorial introduction was a mistake.

[Rudra]

Say what? The contact is auto-loaded to them with a big pop-up telling them they have the contact when they reach level 6. If you want the univerisity tutorial for the crafting system to be auto-loaded or flagged to players, that's fine. Your claim that players aren't introduced to the tutorials though, is laughable. (Edit: And players are already referred to the universities as part of the Hearts of Darkness and Shining Stars tutorial arcs.)

Edited December 11, 2022 by Rudra

[thunderforce]

Common salvage could just be eliminated. It's cheap as dirt, there's always enough to go around, no-one's getting rich off selling it...

 

(... and this is part of why OP is right that the system is overly complex; getting the right common salvage is just a speedbump of irritation, it serves no real purpose.)

Edited December 11, 2022 by thunderforce

[Six-Six]

I don't think the crafting system can be any simpler--I've played other games with more complex and a less forgiving RNG system. You get a recipe, you get salvage, click the craft button and bob's your auntie. The game even gives you three choices on how to do this:

1) buy recipes from AH. check salvage requirements. buy required salvage. craft
2) wait for recipe and salvage drops. check your recipe inventory which recipes are highlighted. click and craft.
3) sell recipes. sell salvage. buy crafted IOs.
 

[Camel]

2 hours ago, ZaranBlack said:

So one of the coolest things about City of Heroes is that It is not equipment based.  Or at least it was not until the invention system.  But now we have this incredibly complex system of salvage and recipes and frankly it is incredibly bloated and complex.

 

What I suggest is pretty simple:  Instead of recipes requiring specific salvage to complete, why not change it so for common recipes just make it require a certain number of common salvage.  For Uncommon recipes, they require uncommon salvage.  And of course for Rare Recipes, they require rare salvage.   But please lets get rid of this need to collect certain salvage!   Its a dinosaur of game design.  

 

While I would suggest that it be one for one with our current system.  Like  a rare recipe would require 1 rare, 1 uncommon, and 2 common salvage of any kind, this can be tweaked for game balance or simplicity.  Like a rare recipe might need 3 rare salvage.  Or if it's a purple 5 rare salvage.  I dont know the intention of how rare certain recipes are meant to be so I would leave that up to devs who have access to that sort of thing.  It could require a few updates or testing to see how it effects the game economy as a whole.  But I know that for the most part salvage is salvage on /ah and they are pretty much worth the same influence in given categories.

 

The reasons why I want to change this system are that trying to organize a salvage system in my super group base is a freaking nightmare and how incredibly difficult it is to show new players how to use this system.  It should NOT require youtube videos and googling or constant diving into /ah to be able to use this otherwise fun and rewarding invention system.  

Another idea that would keep the current system in place but require far less effort... Maybe a "search all" option for specific recipes? You could either search the recipe in Wentworths or drag the recipe into the search bar and it would just pull up all the salvage? I agree with it being a bit outdated. I love making new characters and testing out new builds but slotting them takes... quite a bit of time and mental effort. I don't even want to begin to quantify the amount of time I've spent typing in "Platinum" or "
Magical Conspiracy" to craft my rare and very rare recipes.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Camel

[MTeague]

Given how the market works already pools inventory levels together by rarity, this is kind of already in place. 

Yes, it does require people to KNOW that in order to leverage it. But it wasn't exactly hard to learn, either. 

 

I would personally prefer no change be made, as I like the flavor on each of the pieces. 

Especially nice to have some Black Blood of the Earth lying around in storage. 

 

But I would also not be deeply sad if a change were made.

[lemming]

45 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Given how the market works already pools inventory levels together by rarity, this is kind of already in place. 

Yes, it does require people to KNOW that in order to leverage it. But it wasn't exactly hard to learn, either. 

 

I would personally prefer no change be made, as I like the flavor on each of the pieces. 

Especially nice to have some Black Blood of the Earth lying around in storage. 

 

But I would also not be deeply sad if a change were made.

Yea, I'm not too keen on it because of this as well.   Maybe a crafting table for converting salvage.   Maybe costs what you would get for selling one at the vendor plus maybe two of the salvage?

[Zect]

I love your transparent attempt to spin a self-serving change that would primarily benefit you as "but won't someone think of the newbies?"

 

Newbies are inexperienced, not stupid or illiterate. I know; after all, I was once a newbie too. They are perfectly able to figure out what salvage is needed to craft what recipe - it's written on the recipe itself. There is even a handy link they can click on in the AH to automatically search for the required salvage. They do not need your presumed attempt to help them.

 

16 hours ago, ZaranBlack said:

It should NOT require youtube videos and googling or constant diving into /ah to be able to use this otherwise fun and rewarding invention system.  

 

It doesn't. See above. Even if it did, that is not a bad thing, either; why do you hate learning, knowledge and curiosity?

[Gerswin]

Just start inviting players that have completed kindergarten to your SG.  My first grade son understands it just fine.

[Luminara]

15 hours ago, Camel said:

Maybe a "search all" option for specific recipes? You could either search the recipe in Wentworths or drag the recipe into the search bar and it would just pull up all the salvage?

[Yomo Kimyata]

19 hours ago, ZaranBlack said:

But I know that for the most part salvage is salvage on /ah and they are pretty much worth the same influence in given categories.

 

 

18 hours ago, ZaranBlack said:

I really have no idea.  I do know that salvage in the market is priced about the same. whether this new system will make those prices change?  Who knows?  

 

To OP, I just want to make sure that you understand that salvage in each category is exactly the same in terms of price and volume.  I apologize if I am repeating something you already know, but when salvage (common, uncommon, rare) is put into the /AH system, it is fungible, or bucketed.

 

If I sell an inanimate carbon rod, it goes into the pool of "common".  If you bid for a spiritual essence and buy one, it comes out of that pool of "common".

[UltraAlt]

19 hours ago, ZaranBlack said:

What I suggest is pretty simple:  Instead of recipes requiring specific salvage to complete, why not change it so for common recipes just make it require a certain number of common salvage.  For Uncommon recipes, they require uncommon salvage.  And of course for Rare Recipes, they require rare salvage.   But please lets get rid of this need to collect certain salvage!   Its a dinosaur of game design.  

 

Get it all through the auction house and sell what you don't need.

I don't even bother with salvage racks; they just slow me down.

 

 

19 hours ago, ZaranBlack said:

trying to organize a salvage system in my super group base is a freaking nightmare and how incredibly difficult it is to show new players how to use this system.

 

The tutorial on the IO system in the Universities pretty neatly shows the functionality of the invention system.

The IO sets aren't much more complicated than that.

 

19 hours ago, ZaranBlack said:

It should NOT require youtube videos and googling or constant diving into /ah to be able to use this otherwise fun and rewarding invention system.  

 

I haven't watched any videos or googled on the Invention System. I'm no Yomo, but I do okay.

Honestly, the AH is the easiest way to invent stuff or just simply by it off the rack. For many people, it is cheaper just to buy attuned enhancements than it is to build them.

 

I like the invention market the way that it is.

It saved my characters on-live when it came out.

It doesn't need to be made easier.

If you don't want to take the time to figure it out and do what is necessary, then buy my goods.

[Player2]

On 12/11/2022 at 2:28 PM, Rudra said:

Say what? The contact is auto-loaded to them with a big pop-up telling them they have the contact when they reach level 6. If you want the univerisity tutorial for the crafting system to be auto-loaded or flagged to players, that's fine. Your claim that players aren't introduced to the tutorials though, is laughable. (Edit: And players are already referred to the universities as part of the Hearts of Darkness and Shining Stars tutorial arcs.)

What?  They're referred by tutorial arcs that might be skipped as too boring or because it's so much easier to get farmed up in level?

Madness...  madness, I say.  How can newbies be expected to know everything if someone doesn't take them through it all step by step, including following up on these auto-loaded contacts and very easy to find tutorials?  Just terribly inconsiderate of you, my friend.

 

[biostem]

It's really not that complex - you need a recipe, and a few pieces of salvage.  That salvage comes in 3 rarities, then there's some influence/infamy/information involved.

[yukkuri]

I like it as is and would be disappointed if it was gutted.

[Akisan]

No thank you.

 

Compared to the legacy base salvage system (which I really miss because of the lost lore), the IO system is already very generic.  Plus, it has no intermediate crafting steps or chances to fail, so that alone is a huge step in simplicity over many other games.

 

I'm not sure about how "incredibly difficult it is to show new players". CoH is one of the few games where *anyone* can be (and is expected to be) a Crafter.  In many MMOs with any sort of detailed crafting tree, there tends to be dedicated Crafters in any Guild/Clan/etc., those few people that dedicate themselves to making equipment instead of fighting.  Whether it's build dependent, or player knowledge (or patience!) dependent, it comes out the same:  Many of the characters in a guild will not participate in the crafting system (very basic stuff aside).

 

Also, CoH is still not "equipment based".  In an equipment based game, our appearances *and* enhancements are tied to the equipment we're wearing.  In those games, everyone at a certain content level is going to look more or less the same, as they'll pretty much all be wearing the (same) appropriate armor for that content.  As an aside, I'm actually glad that this is less true these days, with many games offering vanity armors & effects, but for a long time there...

[plainguy]

Why not just get rid of salvage all together and incorporate those cost into the price of the IO or crafting the IO.
It would be less data to store all around.. 

Then rework the system around IO set crafting and combinations.

Example off the top of my head.
3 yellow con IOs from a specific IO Type can be crafted into an Orange Con IO of that same IO Type. So you would need 3 yellow IOs from Defense to make an Orange Defense IO. Then add Merits or other IOs to get a specific IO you might want or take a chance at a random Orange IO from that Type. 

The average player will not give a Sh*t enough to play the market game.. I don't and wouldn't.. 
No one is making money on salvage.
Different conned IOs would be of more value and I am sure those working the market would figure out the market angle on that..

 

 

[Rudra]

30 minutes ago, plainguy said:

Why not just get rid of salvage all together and incorporate those cost into the price of the IO or crafting the IO.
It would be less data to store all around.. 

Then rework the system around IO set crafting and combinations.

Example off the top of my head.
3 yellow con IOs from a specific IO Type can be crafted into an Orange Con IO of that same IO Type. So you would need 3 yellow IOs from Defense to make an Orange Defense IO. Then add Merits or other IOs to get a specific IO you might want or take a chance at a random Orange IO from that Type. 

The average player will not give a Sh*t enough to play the market game.. I don't and wouldn't.. 
No one is making money on salvage.
Different conned IOs would be of more value and I am sure those working the market would figure out the market angle on that..

 

 

I'm rather against this. One of the things I hated about crafting in games like FFXI and CO was the need to make lower tier items/gear in order to make higher tier items/gear. CoX lets you go straight to whatever enhancement you want with recipes for every generic IO and set IO. And those recipes include listed salvage that is easily procured either by playing, farming, or the market. Using a progression system, even if you start at yellow instead of white, means you need 9 enhancements to get a purple (3 yellows to make an orange and then 3 oranges to make a purple) as opposed to just getting the purple.

[plainguy]

23 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm rather against this. One of the things I hated about crafting in games like FFXI and CO was the need to make lower tier items/gear in order to make higher tier items/gear. CoX lets you go straight to whatever enhancement you want with recipes for every generic IO and set IO. And those recipes include listed salvage that is easily procured either by playing, farming, or the market. Using a progression system, even if you start at yellow instead of white, means you need 9 enhancements to get a purple (3 yellows to make an orange and then 3 oranges to make a purple) as opposed to just getting the purple.

Option.. 

No one said requirement.. 

Similar to how  you use converters now to some degree. 

Would require some new user interfaces. 

As further example in my fantasy of this.

You put 3 yellow defense IOs to make an orange Defense IO.  
No converter gives you a random orange defense IO. 
1 converter gives you the choice of getting an orange from the current yellow sets you are using to convert. 
2 converters gives you the choice of which orange IO you want. 

Again this 2 converter just an example.. It could be 10.. Whatever sort of balance is required I leave to the Devs and overall beta testers to decide. 

I am looking at this from a player that does NOT play the market.. For the players that play the market resources is not an issue. 
I have limited resources. I save my stuff over time.. I do TF to get merits.. 
If you put a gun to my head I would zero clue what the trick is to get anything from the market.. 
I am that buy it now creeper guy.. I don't place bids and wait a week to see what happens.. 

[biostem]

I dunno... I prefer being able to zero-in on exactly what I want, then simply get the recipe & mats to craft it.  I don't want to play a hierarchy game of needing X commons for 1 uncommon, Y of those for a rare, and so on.  It's one, (among many reasons), why I never bothered with Champion's crafting system, (especially since there's a fail chance there as well)...