Stone Tankers are utterly ridiculous now

[nihilii]

I know, I'm late to the party. I finally got done digesting the new changes of the last couple updates: optional tier1 secondary, stone buffs.

Went ahead and respecced my stone/energy into something I thought would be suitable. Instead of Musculature/Ageless and perma-Granite, aiming for a Cardiac/Barrier setup running with normal armors most of the time and popping Granite as needed.

The stats looked impressive enough in Mids. Even in normal armors. Then I started playing the actual thing.

Mobility is so nice now I question if I even need Combat Teleport. Could use Combat Jumping instead, for that air mobility. But then, TP is still nice to have while in Granite.

Absolutely no need for Granite in normal content. This makes sense. We're looking at a softcapped character sitting at the Tanker HP cap, about ~50% res to most elements and 500% regen. That is sturdy as hell in itself.

Aeon SF is the weekly. What the hell, let's try soloing it. In 1 star Hard Mode! Let's have a challenge, and gimme those badges.

I still bring a second character on another account, designed as a doorsitter. Just in case I'm obviously coming up short.

Boy. I did not come up short. Devs buffed these Tankers GOOD.

This stone/nrj basically plowed through the whole TF like it was nothing. I don't even have the incarnate materials for Cardiac and Barrier yet. So I ran with the old Musc+Ageless setup, even though the build isn't designed for it anymore.

Most AVs? No problem.

Rippersurge? Got that end drain covered with Rooted, and now we can run and jump with it. Still a bit of a bother to chase the summons, that's where I wished I had Combat Jumping; but not that big of a deal.

King Midas? I'll take one "Can't Touch This", thank you very much (did have to log out the doorsitter for that one, else it would get teleported and blueblasted).

The biggest problem I faced was my ~150% average tohit chance against +3s came out short of real 95% at times, with all the defense buffs flying around in Hard Mode, even at 1 star. It would have been nice to be /SS rather than /EM for permaRage here.

But, still. Wow. I wasn't expecting this much power? Seemingly for "free". I mean, what's the catch. We have a primary here that's basically as good as any other primary, without the T9. Then you add the T9 and that gives you a panic button that's more flexible than every other panic button because it covers everything save psi and you can put it on and off at will. It's crazy good.

And the minimal GFX options are great, too. Much more concept-friendly than it used to be.

Only one annoyance remains. That annoying permanent humming from Crystal Armor. To a lesser extent, Minerals has one too. Perhaps I should get into sound mods.

Ridiculous power all around. Makes me wonder. Is Stone/SS the ultimate character now?

 

So that's my blog post. How about you? How's life lately with your Stone tanker?

Edited June 8, 2023 by nihilii

[twozerofoxtrot]

I never played stone before the buffs.

 

I have a stone/fire I've been very slowly leveling over the last few months. I'm sitting at 43 now. Has just been rock solid the entire way through. 👌 

 

For my final build I'm planning on Musc Radial for the Endmod and Runspeed boosts as well as damage. Probably Ageless Radial as a Debuff-Begone panic button. No Granite Armor, period. Shouldn't need it.

 

Whatever it was before, it's a top teir set now, along with Fire Melee.

Edited June 8, 2023 by twozerofoxtrot

[nihilii]

11 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

No Granite Armor, period. Shouldn't need it.

Huh. That seemed like heresy on a first read. But then the realisation settles in. Scrappers and Stalkers and Sentinels run the set without Granite, essentially, and they're OK. And Tanker values bring the values of normal armors to more impressive numbers anyway. Which are more than enough for anything but extreme content. So your approach makes sense. It feels crazy that it makes sense, with years of habit of "Stone is basically worthless without Granite", but it does make sense now.

Edited June 8, 2023 by nihilii

[Parabola]

I've played a load of stone since the upgrades and I love it. It's such a versatile set doing a bit of everything and it builds really well with great variety. I agree with the 'no granite' stance - I have it on some builds as a mule but never use it.

 

I am currently levelling:

 

Tanks:

Stone/Dark

Stone/Fire

Stone/Nrg

Stone/Psi

Stone/Rad (planned)

 

Brutes:

Savage/Stone

Stone/Stone

 

I may have a bit of a problem...

[honoroit]

earth related powersets allround seem to be decent!  most interested in stone on stalker with the sorta buffed fire updates (dunno if they flowed to stalker much), and of course, stone melee.

 

ive never done it as i remember live having a need for speed boost when in granite or tp. combat tp is a 1 power solve on hc tho.

 

but its extraordinarily slow without, it seems.

 

just wish you could turn down the rock overlay.  you have to dive into that in character look, and things like a chunk coming from the chest are hard to feal with.

 

bio's minimal effects supress that carapace (similar) well, but things like 'crystal minimal' do not.

 

ice is slightly better for this, but still suffers the same.

 

(i better not add a picture of a moogle or thor+iron-guy or people will report my posts like yesterday)

[Gobbledigook]

Stone armor is in a good place now but no better than say Invuln or SD. I have 2 now a Stone/MA and a Stone/SS. Granite is nice enough but mostly unnecessary with the debuffage it does and the rest of the set being so good now.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[Psyonico]

I build my some tanks to have capped defense and resistances in granite and to remove the penalty.  You can do it pretty easily for everything but jump height.  You still end up with a solid tanker outside of granite, but now it has extra damage, recharge, and movement speed, making yourself essentially a scrapper with extra mitigation.

[SwitchFade]

You have convinced me.

 

Time to buff invuln.

[PLVRIZR]

13 hours ago, nihilii said:

Ridiculous power all around. Makes me wonder. Is Stone/SS the ultimate character now?

 

 

I'd like to think so.  I'm sure it's not 100% maxxed, but my titular toon does it all for me, sans Granite, 99% of the time:

 

View This Build In MRB

[Yomo Kimyata]

Just wait until I27:7 when tankers get Trick Arrow as an epic pool.

 

[InvaderStych]

15 hours ago, nihilii said:

Only one annoyance remains. That annoying permanent humming from Crystal Armor. To a lesser extent, Minerals has one too. Perhaps I should get into sound mods.

 

Crystal and Minerals have sound effects?

 

Guess my background music drowns that out. 🤣

[tidge]

15 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Crystal and Minerals have sound effects?

 

Guess my background music drowns that out. 🤣

 

 

[BuiltDifferent5]

17 hours ago, nihilii said:

Ridiculous power all around. Makes me wonder. Is Stone/SS the ultimate character now?

Sounds like it’d be amazing… but what about SS makes it pair so amazing with Stone over some other secondaries?

[Bopper]

35 minutes ago, BuiltDifferent5 said:

Sounds like it’d be amazing… but what about SS makes it pair so amazing with Stone over some other secondaries?

Rage countering damage debuff from granite.

 

And Granite offers so much defense and resistance, the Rage crash is unnoticeable. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Bopper

[BuiltDifferent5]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Rage countering damage debuff from granite.

 

And Granite offers so much defense and resistance, the Rage crash is unnoticeable. 

Gotcha. So basically you could run SS, when Rage crash is gonna hit switch to granite and switch back out after if you want? Lol

[ZemX]

9 hours ago, BuiltDifferent5 said:

Gotcha. So basically you could run SS, when Rage crash is gonna hit switch to granite and switch back out after if you want? Lol

 

@Bopper is talking about running Granite all the time.  That would be the only way of "Rage countering damage debuff from Granite".  Granite is -30% dmg.  Double Rage is +160% dmg.  But only when you're NOT crashing.  Any way you slice it, Granite is hurting your damage, but when it's +130% vs +160%, it's a lot less noticeable.

 

That said... I see no reason to be in Granite 100% of the time.  I think the changes have made Granite potentially situational in the same way many other T9 click "ultimate" armor powers with long recharge times always were.   Break glass in case of emergency.

 

Don't know if I'd want to be going in and out of Granite every Rage crash though.  If you're double-stacking Rage, and you should be, that's 10 seconds out of every minute.  But it's definitely something you can consider using if you happen to crash at a particularly bad moment and you've suddenly started taking a lot of damage.

[BuiltDifferent5]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

 

@Bopper is talking about running Granite all the time.  That would be the only way of "Rage countering damage debuff from Granite".  Granite is -30% dmg.  Double Rage is +160% dmg.  But only when you're NOT crashing.  Any way you slice it, Granite is hurting your damage, but when it's +130% vs +160%, it's a lot less noticeable.

 

That said... I see no reason to be in Granite 100% of the time.  I think the changes have made Granite potentially situational in the same way many other T9 click "ultimate" armor powers with long recharge times always were.   Break glass in case of emergency.

 

Don't know if I'd want to be going in and out of Granite every Rage crash though.  If you're double-stacking Rage, and you should be, that's 10 seconds out of every minute.  But it's definitely something you can consider using if you happen to crash at a particularly bad moment and you've suddenly started taking a lot of damage.

Yeah I agree with that (at least on paper since I haven’t played Stone on a Tanker). I have on a Stalker and it seems plenty sturdy, so I can only imagine on a Tanker.

 

I’m just saying, there is no crash or giant cooldown on Granite, other than the movement and damage penalties, correct? So can pop it, if need be, and it’s no sweat off your back. Seems like an “oh crap” button that can be used whenever.

[Gobbledigook]

5 hours ago, BuiltDifferent5 said:

Yeah I agree with that (at least on paper since I haven’t played Stone on a Tanker). I have on a Stalker and it seems plenty sturdy, so I can only imagine on a Tanker.

 

I’m just saying, there is no crash or giant cooldown on Granite, other than the movement and damage penalties, correct? So can pop it, if need be, and it’s no sweat off your back. Seems like an “oh crap” button that can be used whenever.

It also kills +recharge substantially (-65%), but you can build that in and Granite is certainly not for dps anyway. It won't help with Rage stacking though.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[Thraxen]

I haven't respec'd or made a second build on my stoner yet.  It is stone/ma.  Eagle's Claw in granite is just too much fun anyway.  It is build for soft cap def to all but psi, and hard cap resist for all including psi (think 1-2% below but close enough).  I may look into it.  Setting them on fire with kicks might be fun.  

[Sir Myshkin]

Let’s be realistic, ya’ll would be busting into Granite in a heartbeat if it weren’t for the forced overlay rock look 😛 

 

On a serious note though, building for Granite specifically can be an incredibly prosperous turn out. I have my Stone/EM pumped for Hard Mode with the debuffs compensated in IO bonuses, fully Res capped, packed Defense. Do i need to constantly run that way? Not at all, but when I drop out of Granite I’m still soft capped to defense and sporting good midline resistances, and now pumped by 30% damage due to my compensation. I don’t even have any of those other toggles slotted for more than fillers like the LotG 7.5’s.

 

Stone can do a lot defensively now, but its money is in being able to grab both Res and Def in Granite. Don’t forget it has a hole in its DDR, rely too much on just the defense and it can haunt you.

[ZemX]

17 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Let’s be realistic, ya’ll would be busting into Granite in a heartbeat if it weren’t for the forced overlay rock look

 

Fair.  The reality of survival is you only need "enough" of it and more is wasted.  Using Granite only as an on-demand survival tool makes the most sense because when you don't need it you can dump both its unneeded benefits AND its unwelcome penalties.  Then you can have them all back the instant you DO need them.

 

If I ever do play this set though, I like the idea that deciding how much survival I put into my non-Granite build determines how often (or how rarely) I need to use the ugly rock suit.  But I'd still take it as an emergency measure.

[Sovera]

There is no such thing as 'compensating for Granite's debuffs'. Either Rage or IO bonuses the full strength would be exerted without Granite and with Granite we have less. Even if IO +damage could be stacked to 30% we're not compensating for Granite. If we don't have Granite toggled on we do 30% more damage.

 

The last time I built for Stone I remember that there was no great points in using Granite. If I recall correctly the resistances went up, including defense debuff, but losing all toggles dropped defense as a whole so it was a wash or slightly worse in defense even if resistances went up. With all the other debuffs attached to the form I could not see the point.

[Sir Myshkin]

On 6/12/2023 at 2:10 PM, Sovera said:

There is no such thing as 'compensating for Granite's debuffs'. Either Rage or IO bonuses the full strength would be exerted without Granite and with Granite we have less. Even if IO +damage could be stacked to 30% we're not compensating for Granite. If we don't have Granite toggled on we do 30% more damage.

 

The last time I built for Stone I remember that there was no great points in using Granite. If I recall correctly the resistances went up, including defense debuff, but losing all toggles dropped defense as a whole so it was a wash or slightly worse in defense even if resistances went up. With all the other debuffs attached to the form I could not see the point.

 

Compensation by definition is to counterbalance an unwanted effect, so yes it is literally the act of.

 

It would seem to me that you may not be fully aware of just how Stone Armor functions at this point. The stone toggles don't drop when going into Granite, they just go inactive/stasis. Granite has superior DDR by a small measure, which is a rather relevant need as well. Yes the movement debuff sucks and kind of pigeon holes a need for some kind of combat teleportation, but eh.

 

Taking a snapshot from my Tank:

 

That's in Granite with nothing else active but set bonuses. The build has Maneuvers to add in another 4% on top, if someone wanted to go the route of Weave that too would be possible (but realistically ends up with far too many excess power choices I felt).

 

If I turn off granite and just have the core toggles active w/ Maneuvers (which I have/can/do):

 

And that's with NO slotting beyond a LotG 7.5%, and Brimstone is just Psi IO's. Essentially an empty toggle with set bonus support.

[I-Dirty]

sorry late to the game...is granite not slower than hell anymore?

[smnolimits43]

I have a Stone/Spines Tank, sitting at lvl 32