This game is not as new player friendly as many of us think it is

[Healix]

[Darmian]

27 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Speaking of making a living.  Some of you still havent checked out my only fans site....

Only Fangs, surely?

[HelenCarnate]

How to get lots of views.  Learn the game.  Understand the flaws.  Start a new account and only point out the issues with the game to get more people watch you make easily avoidable mistakes. 

[macskull]

21 hours ago, biostem said:

I'm not sure how things like choosing to skip the tutorial or selecting one of the "epic archetypes" as a new player is a knock against the game.  Consider, for instance, that you used to need at least 1 level 50 in order to unlock the EATs.  The game, AFAIK, does introduce you to the "con system" that talks about targeting and enemy difficulty levels, so not sure how one would confuse an enemy with an NPC.  I've tried showing younger folks how to play, and in general it seems to be a combination of unfamiliarity with WASD controls, impatience, and them wanting the game to explicitly point everything out for them...

The level 50 unlock requirement was changed to level 20 back on live, and is gone entirely now. Historical unlock gates are completely irrelevant now because they don't matter. The game lets you pick any archetype right from the get-go, and save for a cursory description and some not-really-accurate basic stat displays the game does an extremely poor job of telling you much about the archetypes. There's nothing that says "these archetypes are new-player friendly" or "these archetypes are probably not ones you want to try as your first character because they're kinda complicated."

 

If you pick one of the epic ATs (again, there's no way to know these are the epic ATs unless you've played before) the game straight-up skips the tutorial without even asking, and that's where you get introduced to the basic gameplay elements like navigation, missions, contacts, using your powers, and the con system. There are a ton of systems in this game that don't make themselves apparent and aren't intuitive. Hell, some new players aren't even aware there's a help menu (which, while we're on the subject, is still full of outdated information that hasn't been relevant in over 15 years).

 

20 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Seems to me a lot of the wounds are self-inflicted. If you pick a regular AT, go blue, do the tutorial (choosing to skip the tutorial as a new player is pretty dumb), and then see the contacts the game gives you it's all very new player-friendly, especially once you get to Twin Shot, as that arc does a lot of educating and touring. The game is not always going to be easy for new players, especially when you get sent to Perez Park or the Hollows, but that doesn't mean it isn't friendly. Yes, there is a lot you need to figure out on your own, but that's true of all MMOs, and part of the MMO experience.

And I have to say, the community here is awesome, and is ready and willing to help newbies, which is more than I can say for other superhero MMOs that _{*cough*D*cough*} shall _{*cough*C*cough*} remain _{*cough*U*cough*} nameless _{*cough*O*cough*}.

We know what a "regular" AT is because we play the game. A new player with zero experience isn't going to know that, and they're not going to know that picking a Kheldian or a VEAT is going to automatically skip the tutorial. Even as experienced players we still find ourselves going to CoD or the wiki to figure out how things work because the game just isn't good at presenting information to the player.

[Andreah]

Epic AT's should be locked out as the first character on a new account, as should also Going Rogue starts, and they should be required to do one or other of the tutorials.

 

I'm minded to recommend the first character on an account be required to be level 5+ before they are allowed to leave Atlas Park or Mercy Island, but maybe that's too much.

 

[FupDup]

11 minutes ago, Andreah said:

I'm minded to recommend the first character on an account be required to be level 5+ before they are allowed to leave Atlas Park or Mercy Island, but maybe that's too much.

Definitely can't go over level 5 for that limit, because some early missions like Twinshot and Dr. Graves require you to visit other zones as part of their tutorials. 

[Captain Fabulous]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

The level 50 unlock requirement was changed to level 20 back on live, and is gone entirely now. Historical unlock gates are completely irrelevant now because they don't matter. The game lets you pick any archetype right from the get-go, and save for a cursory description and some not-really-accurate basic stat displays the game does an extremely poor job of telling you much about the archetypes. There's nothing that says "these archetypes are new-player friendly" or "these archetypes are probably not ones you want to try as your first character because they're kinda complicated."

 

If you pick one of the epic ATs (again, there's no way to know these are the epic ATs unless you've played before) the game straight-up skips the tutorial without even asking, and that's where you get introduced to the basic gameplay elements like navigation, missions, contacts, using your powers, and the con system. There are a ton of systems in this game that don't make themselves apparent and aren't intuitive. Hell, some new players aren't even aware there's a help menu (which, while we're on the subject, is still full of outdated information that hasn't been relevant in over 15 years).

 

We know what a "regular" AT is because we play the game. A new player with zero experience isn't going to know that, and they're not going to know that picking a Kheldian or a VEAT is going to automatically skip the tutorial. Even as experienced players we still find ourselves going to CoD or the wiki to figure out how things work because the game just isn't good at presenting information to the player.

I will acquiesce and say with the removal of level limits it wouldn't hurt to add something to the (V)EAT descriptions saying how they are advanced classes meant for experienced players, and/or allow entry to the tutorial.

BUT...this video still feels like he went out of his way to purposefully do everything wrong.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Andreah said:

Epic AT's should be locked out as the first character on a new account, as should also Going Rogue starts, and they should be required to do one or other of the tutorials.

 

I'm minded to recommend the first character on an account be required to be level 5+ before they are allowed to leave Atlas Park or Mercy Island, but maybe that's too much.

 

These suggestions are pretty extreme given the lack of evidence that new players need gated in order for them to learn how to play. I learned how to play by watching others and reading the wonderful guide that came with the game. I don't think I've ever even read through the tutorials text. I'd be more supportive of these suggestions if there were more new players asking for this type of gating. 

[macskull]

There's definitely some survivorship bias with the forum population, and the current long-term playerbase at large. Yes, we're seeing peak numbers that are double the highest points we've seen in the last two years, but how many of those players are going to stick around? If combing through the various channels on the Homecoming Discord is any indication, there's a not-insignificant number of people who are put off (i.e., they try out the game and abandon it within a day or two) by various aspects of the game because of how outdated or clumsy they are.

 

New players don't need to be gated, they just things explained for them ingame (without having to go to external resources like the wiki or CoD) in a way that isn't overwhelming. The character creation text descriptions, tutorial, and even the first few story arcs don't do a great job of it, and that's assuming you don't "incorrectly" pick the "wrong" starting AT or elect to start in Praetoria. The pop help stuff is a step in the right direction but I don't even remember if that's enabled by default (and for someone who knows even a little about the game you get the tips so often that it's almost annoying).

[Xalon]

I always tell new players the same things and it usually helps. So for CoH, here we go:

 

1- once you start the game, focus on just one mission at a time

2- read everything and talk to npcs around atlas park's city hall

3- do not try to rush or powerlevel (you can miss out on a lot and end up being lost and confused)

4- remember to pace yourself (it will probably take until you reach level20+ before you start to see the overall game)

5- stick to missions that match your level, are lower level, or +1 above your level, for the first 10 levels

6- spend time on the wiki to learn about all the different aspects and read the comics too!

 

At first it's slower, but as you gain more powers and figure out the best rotation of using them on baddies, you will gain more confidence.

 

I played Champions Online before CoH, bur continued playing CoH because everything about it is amazing, especially if you like the stories. Yes, the graphics are very outdated and the animations are old school, but after a week or two of playing, their importance fades away as you experience all that CoH has to offer.

 

I'm not back playing CoH again and I missed it. So many mmorpgs are being taken over by rushers and altaholics. But with CoH you can adventure with and grow your character and feel you are that character when you play! PVE, PVP, RP, CRAFT, EXPLORE, ETC. .

 

If the graphics really bother you, play no more than an hour each day. After a couple of weeks, you won't care as much and start playing for longer.

 

Good Luck and Welcome Home to Homecoming!

[PancakeGnome]

I'm sure he had a really fun time and really enjoyed it though. Just because you get defeated and go to the hospital doesn't mean you are having a bad time. It's super easy to just get up and keep going and learn.

Compare that with an MMO like everquest....where if you die you de-level, you lose your body somewhere, and respawn naked and have to go figure out where your corpse and stuff is.... lol

[Crysis]

This game, like all the other MMO's of the early 2000's, had a very complex UI with a lot of different required keyboard+mouse commands.  It was never friendly to joypad use, and was always designed as a PC-only game.  Pre-IO's and Recipes it was one of the simpler MMO's out there, as complex as it was, because you really only needed to understand the basics of the enhancement system.  Recharge for speed, Health for heals, etc.  Then they introduced crafting and IO's and recipes and salvage (which coincided with the subscription model to keep players engaged longer and thus support more revenues for the publisher) and the complexity went off the rails...but for the time, still it was no more complex than many other MMO's.

 

But it's 2024.  Game design has changed entirely.  Even top selling games like Baldur's Gate 3, as complex as it can be, is -far simpler- than most MMO's of their day.  

 

This is a 20 year old game, with 20 year old design criteria.  It's not a PS5 game, it's not pick up and play.  It will never have broad appeal, just as it didnt during Live.  It has niche appeal.  If I want web slinging and acrobatics, Spiderman video games are FAR more enjoyable to give me my superhero fix (as long as it's Spiderman obviously).  This game can't and likely won't ever be that friendly to a casual superhero action gamer.

 

Honestly, if I didn't pretty much know how to play this game already, and have so many years invested in so many characters and understanding how to min/max a character to the gills...I likely wouldn't hang out here at all.  It's just a steep learning curve, too steep I'd argue, for most of the gaming generation that grew up playing games from the comfort of their couch.  

[PeregrineFalcon]

So this guy is an experienced MMO player. He makes a video where he pretends to be a noob. Does no research into the game at all. Deliberately does dumb things and dies a lot. And he's drinking while he's doing this. And that's supposed to convince people that "This game is not as new player friendly as many of us think it is"?

 

The only thing it's convinced me of is that the OP doesn't think much of the intelligence of the people on this forum.

 

This game isn't that "new player friendly" to someone who's never played a video game before. Sure, ok. I can agree with that. But we're a quarter of way into the 21st century. How many people in first world nations have never played a video game before, ever?

 

If only we had a wiki that had all of the needed game info as well as pages with tips for new players. Or, what if this game had a chat window with a help channel so that new players could ask other players for help and advice?

[golstat2003]

32 minutes ago, Crysis said:

This game, like all the other MMO's of the early 2000's, had a very complex UI with a lot of different required keyboard+mouse commands.  It was never friendly to joypad use, and was always designed as a PC-only game.  Pre-IO's and Recipes it was one of the simpler MMO's out there, as complex as it was, because you really only needed to understand the basics of the enhancement system.  Recharge for speed, Health for heals, etc.  Then they introduced crafting and IO's and recipes and salvage (which coincided with the subscription model to keep players engaged longer and thus support more revenues for the publisher) and the complexity went off the rails...but for the time, still it was no more complex than many other MMO's.

 

Err that is not true for the bolded. I joined around 2 issues after launch and I was able to use regular old generic six button controller. And I've been using a controller with this game since then. I didn't even have to use any special things like xinput (I don't even think it existd then), just the regular old bindings in the options menu.

[Murcielago]

Back in my day we had to Sprint everywhere for 14 levels. We didn't have newfangled jetpacks and flying boards.

[Clave Dark 5]

14 hours ago, Seed22 said:

This is good information, because this is directly from a new player’s perspective. No matter what you all think of how the player fell into this or that trap or did this or that wrong, even if I agree with you generally, this is the new player experience.

 

It may sting but hey thats reality for ya.

 

A new player experience, not THE new player experience. 

 

This aint even stinging me, I'm not out here defending our beloved game from any and all critiques (ask me how I hate Incarnate stuff and how confusing that was/is, I dare you), I'm just saying this guy dove in headfirst without checking the depth of the pool.

[Falling Stargazer]

Just to throw in something else... setbacks aren't failures of design. They're part of learning something new. Done the right way, setbacks are good.

 

It's okay to be bad at things the literal first time you play. It's a toy, play with it, play with it BADLY, if it's well-made it won't scuff too much from some kicking, get better at playing with it, talk to people about it; we don't need to over-instrumentalize fun.

 

This player is clearly in "streamer mode" which kneecaps paying attention in favor of keeping up momentum for an audience. In some ways, the format actively encourages failure because panicked blindness is often more entertaining. This is FAR from a reasonable example of play. Honestly, I feel like given the severity of his refusal to engage with it, with explanation text, refusing to go back when he was told about the tutorial, and so on; this video demonstrates way more Ws for CoH's accessibility than Ls. That even engaging in willful ignorance you can still do okay just tapping buttons to auto target mooks.

 

Positive design moments I noticed:

• The Help Me prompt at character creation. Clearly this is why it's important that prompt exists and jumps out at you.
• Even without doing the tutorial, he figured out navigating and even activating his fly power within a minute of starting to run around, which is a win in the elegance of the UX. The UI is communicative and not over-stylized or noisy. It wants to help you do things.
• You can see the design of the Police Drones came up in a meaningful way, taught him that he can retreat to safe areas if he realizes he's in over his head
• At 27:42 just by poking the buttons on screen, he surfaces nearly every major interface. Nothing broke or yanked him away into some other imposing screen. This is a win for the UX not doing anything too squirrelly that might make a player feel overwhelmed at the game seeming to "ask them to do something". Think of other games where by clicking a button you might wind up in a totally different UI with a skill tree on it or something. CoH doesn't have that kind of hostile interface right out of the gate and that's actually really smart.
• At 28:58 you see exactly what I mean above, the enhancement screen comes up and he immediately pauses to go "what's this?" and poke around trying to get something out of it. Nothing happens, because again the game is well designed to not seed "starting gear" or something like that which might prompt you to read all of it or accidentally unequip it. There's nothing, so he leaves the screen, so nothing is broken but he knows a certain interface exists.
• At 31:23 he realizes that he can't see his fly power anymore and intuitively drags the fly icon back onto it. That's a win to the UX responding elegantly! Its skew morphism of buttons and slots readily communicates the way you interact with it.
• At 33:27 (Comparing against DC Universe Online and Champions Online) "I like this one because of the customization." HAIL TO THE KING, BABY!
• At 40:22 he removes a costume choice he regretted and because that's free up till level 10, it's no issue! Also it's clearly a good move to have that option available on trainers for just this reason.

Some areas of criticism where CoH could improve accessibility:

• It would be good to flag the EATs with something like "Not recommended for those new to City of Heroes" because they force skipping the tutorial and have odd mechanical quirks. It wouldn't have helped here, because he actively refused to read the class descriptions, but I could see someone who is truly trying also making that mistake.
• The Help Me popup window should perhaps mention the Help chat channel. In the era of wikis, it's probably faster to ask Google, but plenty of people prefer socializing to learn instead. We're playing an MMO after all.
• At 29:37 I do actually think it's iffy design sending players to the hospital of a zone. I feel like if they're under the recommended level for the zone a prompt ought to come up asking if they want to go to the Hospital here or return somewhere safe. Cryptic accidentally created the Sellia Crystal Tunnel from Elden Ring decades in advance.
• He gets lost going to the detective in Steel Canyon while trying to figure out how to get back to a safer zone. I think the fact that the game auto targets detectives in new zones is a little iffy. Maybe it should only do this if you're in the appropriate level band for the zone.

And finally just some salt I can't let slide:

• At 39:03 (In reference to the accuracy system) "Oh so it's like Morrowind then. Oh that's gonna be... that's gonna be annoying." Morrowind slander is a betrayal of all gamerkind. All of his opinions are now completely invalid. 😉

And to be clear, I don't malign the streamer here. Hope he keeps playing, maybe off camera so he can actually process what's going on at his own pace. Welcome to Paragon!

 

Also, good on the member of his audience who hopped in to help. Helping other players we notice struggling is a key component of healthy MMOs. CoH would NOT be the same game if we were only playing with direct acquaintances. MMOs flourished in the era before social media for just that reason.

[Lucritious]

I just installed recently and I havent had much problems but then im not a Youtuber.

[Coyotedancer]

Dude did seem to make pretty much every blunder he could, there... And yet, still seemed to have some good fun with it.  The game having at least a little bit of a learning curve isn't necessarily *DOOM!!*. 

[shatterpoint]

This video is a complete sham.

The only thing I see that needs to be fixed...is that the Peacebringers and Warshades DO need a warning about them being for more advanced players.

With his list of MMO vids....he conveniently adopts total amnesia about how MMOs work.

 

[jprewitt73]

On 1/14/2024 at 7:35 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

The only thing it's convinced me of is that the OP doesn't think much of the intelligence of the people on this forum.

 

 

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, shatterpoint said:

This video is a complete sham.

 

It was entertainment.  Conan O'Brien does the same thing with his "Clueless Gamer" segments.

[UltraAlt]

On 1/13/2024 at 4:00 PM, FFFF said:

This game is a lot less new player friendly than most of us vets thinks it is

 

Are you suggesting that a new player should have more restrictions and guidance in the game while making a first character?

 

After letting them know that they have the option of getting some guidance for a first character or not, if they want guidance ...

 

"Homecoming has developed even past the large amount of development that was done with the game was still commercially active before the Sunset.

The amount of content and choices may be overwhelming to a new player. For this reason, we would like to know if you would like some guidance in creating our first character. This will give some limitations to the kind of character you can create and help streamline the character creation process as well as directing you to explore the the game as it was originally intended upon release.

Would you like guidance or are you ready to take a deep dive into the world of Homecoming?"

 

Perhaps allow them only to be a Hero?

Limit them to the 5 original hero archetypes?

Only allow them to pick from the original power sets?

Take them directly to a default superhero costume once they get to the costume creator?

Skip over power customization?

Make them play through the original Hero-side tutorial?

Automatically, giving them the "help me" tag?

Give the player's character's their origin contact as their first contact and don't give them another contact (that isn't given by the origin contact) until at least level 5?

 

Let them know to use the /help channel as it is generally friendly and helpful in THE CITY?

[Seed22]

On 1/14/2024 at 12:02 PM, Luminara said:

No-one bothered to check the video maker's Youtube channel?  None of you noticed that this guy's played just about every MMO that exists and can't be as incompetent as he acts in that video?  That the whole thing is deliberately skewed to portray Co* in a bad light because that's how this guy makes his living?

To be fair after reading all of the posts over the years I feel like my IQ has dropped when it comes to this game. I blame the forums!

Edited January 16 by Seed22

[ForeverLaxx]

It's a tad bit facetious to point to a manufactured-for-entertainment video as an example of how "unfriendly" the game is to new players. That said, automatically skipping the tutorial when you choose an Epic AT where there's no indication there's even a distinction on character creation probably needs to be handled somehow.

 

This did remind me of a time I tried to get a friend of mine into this game before it shut down. He picked War Mace and I watched in confusion as he ran around using Brawl on everything, never touching his War Mace attacks. When I asked him why, he said that he hadn't gotten a Mace to drop yet and was convinced he couldn't use his Mace attacks until he found one. He almost refused to believe me when I said to just use the Power and you'll manifest a mace out of nowhere as "gear" in CoH really doesn't exist.

 

He didn't play the game for long after that.