Focused Feedback: New Player Experience (NPE) Improvements

[Sovera]

We all went through NCSoft start when they decided players did not need numbers and we didn't have the detailed info tab. Every power was 'moderate damage,' 'minor damage', etc. then by 6 or 7 or whatever they added real numbers in after realizing players did not like having two powers saying they did moderate numbers but who did different amounts of it.

 

That was the birth of Mids, btw, in an age where there were no complicated invention system and dozens and dozens of small bonuses we would need to add by hand to know what amount of X we have. Players hating that claptrap just had them test thing by hand then coalesce their findings and birthed Mids.

 

New players might not need to have a link to Mids, but they should know about ED, they should be introduced to the idea each attack power needs at least one accuracy, three damage, one endurance modication, etc. Even now I'm helping new players with builds where they socket their attacks powers for stuns, and I'm not saying they would not manage to eventually reach 50 (and that we all have stories of such, on hindsight, blunders) but first impressions matter and instead of throwing them in blind the first SO drop could trigger a pop menu with basic slotting as mentioned above.

[Reiska]

Yeah, immediately directing newcomers to Mids would be information overload.  But I think you could do a lot better than the current disclosure without overwhelming players.  Simply disclosing the damage scales and base cooldowns of powers in game in place of the "Damage: Moderate" etc. tags would go a long way.  (Never mind that some sets are missing even those; Battle Axe, for example.)

 

Something like, taking Broadsword/Hack as an example:

 

Before:

You Hack your opponent for a high amount of damage.  This attack can reduce a target's Defense, making him easier to hit.

 

Damage: Moderate.

Recharge: Moderate.

 

After:

You Hack your opponent with your Broad Sword.  This attack can reduce a target's Defense, making them easier to hit.

 

Damage Scale: 1.64.

Base Recharge: 8 seconds.

 

You'd need to edit the tutorial a little bit somewhere to explain what a damage scale actually *means*; most current MMOs express the power of special abilities as a comparison to auto-attack damage, but we don't have autoattacks here to use.  Still, the basic idea of "higher damage scale = stronger" is intuitive.  FFXIV actually uses a similar concept as Damage Scale in how it presents ability information to players; they call it potency there, and at least for physical abilities, potency 100 is equal to 3 seconds' worth of autoattack damage.

 

Note that you don't necessarily have to present the numbers in the same decimal form as they're used internally; if you think it'd be easier for players to digest, you could just as easily say "Damage Scale: 164" instead of 1.64 - at the end of the day it's an arbitrary number that lets you compare powers across sets.  You could just as easily revive the old player measure of Brawl Index and use it as the basis, but given that the current devs typically use Damage Scale in patch notes, it's probably best to just present that.

[Lockely]

33 minutes ago, Reiska said:

FFXIV actually uses a similar concept as Damage Scale in how it presents ability information to players; they call it potency there, and at least for physical abilities, potency 100 is equal to 3 seconds' worth of autoattack damage.

 

As an avid FFXIV player, I'd argue that if you asked 30 people who all raid what 100 potency actually meant, only one of them could tell you that it was 3 auto attacks worth of DPS. 

 

Numbers are good, but most people just go "Bigger Number = Better Skill" unless they're hardcore theory crafters. Recharge time is something that should absolutely be visible on power selection, as "Slow, Fast, Faster, Very Fast, Very Very Fast, ect" are all only minimally useful. I think the problem back in the day is that people might be turned off from the game in general if they knew their first two attacks had 4 and 8 second recharge rates off the bat.

 

I can understand that. People still complain about FFXIV's GCD being 2.5 seconds and saying combat is as slow as molasses due to it. But once you're in and really getting a feel for things, I don't think it's a problem. 

 

So, what about a toggle solution? Initially start with text, and then have a menu toggle to swap to numbers once you know what the game loop actually is and you're bought in enough to understand it.

Edited February 4 by Lockely

[Lunar Ronin]

5 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

I completely disagree. 100%. This is, of course, my opinion. However, do you feel giving vague descriptors to new players is going to ok? For some, maybe. For others, like me when I was new, it's a hell no. I'm making a super. I want to be able to kick some ass and not be taken out because I wasn't sure of numbers or planning my build and so on. One can build a very good toon or a mediocre toon with the exact same amount of money - planning and knowing the numbers is the difference.

 

If you don't like it, fine. But please give me a break when you carte blanche exclaim giving new players numbers and MIDS is the worst thing. Shockingly, some people may thing differently than you...I know...it must floor you!

 

I love Mids' Reborn and its developers.  They've done an immense job for Homecoming and its players.  But you should not rely on it for numbers.  I remember a couple of years ago when someone thought they were helping, and updated the powers on the Homecoming Wiki to reflect what was in Mids' Reborn... which was wrong quite a bit, including adding Bruising back to Tankers when that had been removed for over a year in-game but was still shown in Mids' Reborn.  If you want numbers to rely on, use City of Data.

[Cyclone Jack]

Mids is great, I use it all the time, but I feel that the Power Description page for the powers is fine.  Why?  Because the numbers are already available in a nice, clean Power Details window, available for every power.  There is no need to dump all of that into a basic description of a power.

 

I would suggest allowing the player the ability to view the Power Details of powers they have not yet unlocked.  If I'm L10, let me right-click on a L12 or L20 power and view the details.

 

5 hours ago, Reiska said:

After:

You Hack your opponent with your Broad Sword.  This attack can reduce a target's Defense, making them easier to hit.

 

Damage Scale: 1.64.

Base Recharge: 8 seconds.

Good idea overall but, even with a tutorial message that'll be forgotten in a few minutes, Damage Scale doesn't really mean anything; I've been playing since 2004 and I've never used Damage Scale in any conversation.  If you're going to show numbers, just show the base damage of the power at that level.

 

But, the problem with showing 1 or 2 numbers, is that then people will then want all of the numbers, which will absolutely clutter the Power Description.  That's why we have a Power Details screen.

[Jimmy]

Perhaps for damage we could use a visual representation instead, eg: ⬤⬤◐OO, ⬤OOOO, ⬤⬤⬤⬤⬤

[Laucianna]

So two things I noticed when making a Kheldian:

If Kheldians are getting their roles defined in the diversity bonus, would it not make sense to add PeaceBringer to Melee Damage and WarShade to Crowd Control sections? Because at the moment both are just tanks and range damage.

Also the numbers used make PeaceBringers just seem worse the Arachnos Solider in 4/6 ways and the same in survivability and ranged damage.

 

 - Lauci x

[Doc_Scorpion]

10 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

I completely disagree. 100%. This is, of course, my opinion. However, do you feel giving vague descriptors to new players is going to ok? For some, maybe. For others, like me when I was new, it's a hell no. I'm making a super. I want to be able to kick some ass and not be taken out because I wasn't sure of numbers or planning my build and so on. One can build a very good toon or a mediocre toon with the exact same amount of money - planning and knowing the numbers is the difference.

You aren't a new player.  If you don't like something, fine.  But please give me a break when you carte blanche exclaim that something is wrong.

Or, to make it plain, I absolutely agree with the other posters.  We absolutely do not want to flood new players with information they lack the necessary background and experience to properly interpret.  And we absolutely do not want to give the impression that min maxing and/or build planning is a prerequisite for being able to play (or enjoy) the game.  The kinds of folks who enjoy that kind of stuff will almost invariably either encounter it through osmosis or deliberately seek it out.  We don't need to force it on everyone else.

[Troo]

11 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

However, do you feel giving vague descriptors to new players is going to ok? For some, maybe. For others, like me when I was new, it's a hell no.

 

Good vague descriptions are better at avoiding the nuances a player would need to understand to have a complete picture.

Raw numbers can be misleading.

 

I'm not against values being available under the detailed info, but even with that information, a player has only parts of a more complicated formula.

 

I am certainly missing some damage considerations.

• PVE vs PVP.
• How defense and resistance effect damage.
• Lethal vs Toxic damage. Damage types.
• How the Area Factor works.
• Chain powers.
• Procs.
• Pseudopets.
• Enhancement diversification.
• Damage caps.
• Damage modifiers.
• Damage boosts.
• ToHit
• debuffs

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4 by Troo

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

Perhaps for damage we could use a visual representation instead, eg: ⬤⬤◐OO, ⬤OOOO, ⬤⬤⬤⬤⬤

Lieutenant Commander, Ensign, and Fleet Admiral?

[BurtHutt]

29 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Good vague descriptions are better at avoiding the nuances a player would need to understand to have a complete picture.

Raw numbers can be misleading.

 

I'm not against values being available under the detailed info, but even with that information, a player has only parts of a more complicated formula.

 

I am certainly missing some damage considerations.

• PVE vs PVP.
• How defense and resistance effect damage.
• Lethal vs Toxic damage. Damage types.
• How the Area Factor works.
• Chain powers.
• Procs.
• Pseudopets.
• Enhancement diversification.
• Damage caps.
• Damage modifiers.
• Damage boosts.
• ToHit
• debuffs

 

 

 

 

Yes the damage and environment and nuances can get very detailed and maybe even a little complex. I think a lot of players find this interesting and wouldn't mind learning it - as many of the experienced players have. I actually think it's kinda cool how complex you can make it. Adding procs and factoring those is kinda wild too.

 

I know I am not like all players but I'm like some. I'd like this info at the start so I can start learning it. I don't want to get into these details on every game out there, just the ones I like. I still like CoX a lot and it's my fave game. I'll admit I don't play a ton of games so I can get into some details etc. 

 

I think assuming all new players wouldn't be able to comprehend the complexities or want to is somewhat insulting to the intelligence of new players. Sure, many won't want to or don't care to spend the time. Let them choose. 🙂 

Edited February 4 by BurtHutt

[Troo]

@BurtHutt Sure make details available, just not front and center.

[BurtHutt]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

@BurtHutt Sure make details available, just not front and center.

Either or. It's a bit of a moot point as I use MIDS and won't make a toon without doing a proper build/a build I like. It's just the way I am. I guess the main point is to let the players pick. 🙂

[Bionic_Flea]

It occurs to me that the NPE^TM should probably teach the game like you would teach chess to someone that's completely new to the game. 

 

This is the board, these are the pieces, this is how they move, this is how they attack. 

 

And then let them play with that a bit before you teach them castling, en passant, and gambits.

[Lockely]

13 minutes ago, Troo said:

@BurtHutt Sure make details available, just not front and center.

 

That's why I suggested a toggle up above. Default is the vague pips-like system @Jimmy proposed. I like that idea. It gets the information across a little better than "Strong". But a toggle for an at a glance look at the base numbers on the power itself for more veteran players (similar to how you can toggle on recharge timers) would satisfy those who want to dig deeper without having to pull the power details window up for each and every power.

[megaericzero]

I could see displaying recharge in seconds. It's a real-world metric everyone knows and has a feel for.

 

Damage, though, not so much. A power can do 1,234 damage but a new player has no idea if enemies usually have 12 health or 12 billion health. The actual damage number increases as you level too.

Damage scale is similarly problematic; you avoid the number changing with level but new players don't have a frame of reference for what that scale relates to.

 

 

(Don't get me wrong. An option to display numbers like Lockely said, sure, but default it to "off" at the start.)

 

Personally, I like the [Minor, Moderate, High, Extreme] scale because it gives an at-a-glance idea of what to expect from a power.

(Dunno if Jimmy is being silly but, assuming they're serious, I'd prefer the words over visualizations; counting x-out-of-y was always slower for my brain than just recognizing text.)

 

[Fade]

3 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Or, to make it plain, I absolutely agree with the other posters.  We absolutely do not want to flood new players with information they lack the necessary background and experience to properly interpret.  And we absolutely do not want to give the impression that min maxing and/or build planning is a prerequisite for being able to play (or enjoy) the game.  The kinds of folks who enjoy that kind of stuff will almost invariably either encounter it through osmosis or deliberately seek it out.  We don't need to force it on everyone else.

 

Presenting too much information at once can definitely be a problem. But I don't think the "descriptive language" system of describing powers is any less overwhelming than directly presenting the damage scale, and it's less useful to boot. Any player, new or old, can see that 1.4 is higher than 1.2 and decide whether they care about that or not. But to this day I can never remember whether "Light" damage is supposed to be more than "Minor", or whether "Superior" is more than "Extreme". And in some sets, like Archery for Blasters*, you're presented with two options that are both labeled as "Light" (although the description of the power says one does more than another).

 

Personally, for power information, I'd like to see animation time be a described in that same block of text. Using Hack as an example again, I'd format it like this:

Damage: 1.64

Attack speed: 1.33 seconds

Recharge: 8 seconds

Giving players an idea of "this attack hits harder, but this one is faster" gives them the information to make a meaningful choice right off the bat, or they'll continue to ignore that description and pick based on the power icon like I often do.

 

*side note: Looking at the first two powers for Archery across multiple archetypes shows inconsistencies. For Blasters, both Snap Shot and Aimed Shot are labeled "Light". For Corruptors, they are "Moderate" and "High", and for Defenders, they are "Minor" and "Light". An objective, numbers-based system would help alleviate this confusion.

[Wispur]

4 hours ago, Laucianna said:

If Kheldians are getting their roles defined in the diversity bonus, would it not make sense to add PeaceBringer to Melee Damage and WarShade to Crowd Control sections? Because at the moment both are just tanks and range damage.

I was thinking something similar.
I'd like to see the playstyle choices at character creation reflect the assigned roles in the diversity bonus.
Mainly so that there are no surprises for new players, and everything stays consistent.

[Doc_Scorpion]

26 minutes ago, Fade said:

Any player, new or old, can see that 1.4 is higher than 1.2 and decide whether they care about that or not. But to this day I can never remember whether "Light" damage is supposed to be more than "Minor", or whether "Superior" is more than "Extreme".

Nor does the difference between "Light" or "Minor" matter all that much, for normal gameplay it's a non issue.  If you, for whatever reason, really care between 1.2 or 1.4, that information is available on the "Detailed Info" tab.
 

 

16 minutes ago, Fade said:

Giving players an idea of "this attack hits harder, but this one is faster" gives them the information to make a meaningful choice right off the bat, or they'll continue to ignore that description and pick based on the power icon like I often do.

Discerning which power hits harder or hits faster is already trivially done using the already available "Detailed Info" tab.  If you choose based on the icon rather than using the information the game already provides you...  Well, that's not on the game.

It's entirely possible to build a playable and effective toon using nothing but the information available in game.  That's the entire point of this subthread, that we don't need to push players towards MIDS.

[Lockely]

23 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Nor does the difference between "Light" or "Minor" matter all that much, for normal gameplay it's a non issue.  If you, for whatever reason, really care between 1.2 or 1.4, that information is available on the "Detailed Info" tab.
 

 

Discerning which power hits harder or hits faster is already trivially done using the already available "Detailed Info" tab.  If you choose based on the icon rather than using the information the game already provides you...  Well, that's not on the game.

It's entirely possible to build a playable and effective toon using nothing but the information available in game.  That's the entire point of this subthread, that we don't need to push players towards MIDS.

 

There's room for compromise is there not? The standard display right now is incredibly basic, while the detailed info pane is the polar opposite, being somewhat daunting to parse. 

 

What Fade is proposing here is a good middle ground in-between, allowing players to choose their level of more granulated complexity.

 

Having a Basic, Intermediate, and Expert power display option is only going to help people in the long run.

[Fade]

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

It's entirely possible to build a playable and effective toon using nothing but the information available in game.  That's the entire point of this subthread, that we don't need to push players towards MIDS.

 

I totally agree with you there. MIDS is a nice program to use, I enjoy it, but it isn't (and shouldn't be) a necessity. And providing the most accurate information in an easy-to-understand manner is why that's the case.

 

---

 

Something I completely forgot to mention in my first post there is that providing numbers in the power descriptions doesn't have to be at the expense of descriptive language (or dots, if that's something people like better). A block that looks like this:

Damage: High (1.64)

Attack speed: Medium (1.33 seconds)

Recharge: Medium (8 seconds)

would be helpful and flavorful in equal measure. But if they're going to stay, the "Light"s, "Medium"s, "High"s, etc. should at least be re-evaluated to be consistent across copies of the powersets, and IMO across powersets in general, to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Lockely said:

Having a Basic, Intermediate, and Expert power display option is only going to help people in the long run.

 

I agree all the information should be (and is) available for players who want to check out.

 

What CoH did with the power descriptions is add flavor and some context to basic information.

(for a detailed example: see Hack at https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=brute_melee.broad_sword.hack&at=brute)

 

Spoiler

Again, the information is of how much use without context? Is damage 8.4 massive, or simply a tickle?

...and absolute numbers can be misleading:.

Cast Time is tricky -vs- Arcanatime -vs- Rooted Time -vs- Animation Time Before Effect

 

Other variables between powers which folks might care about could include Accuracy, Ranges, Damage Types, Hold Time, Hold magnitude, Sleep, Fear, Slow, -ToHit, etc...

 

2 hours ago, Fade said:

Personally, for power information, I'd like to see animation time be a described in that same block of text. Using Hack as an example again, I'd format it like this:

Damage: 1.64

Attack speed: 1.33 seconds

Recharge: 8 seconds

Giving players an idea of "this attack hits harder, but this one is faster" gives them the information to make a meaningful choice right off the bat, or they'll continue to ignore that description and pick based on the power icon like I often do.

 

Hopefully, you are selecting based on the power description rather than the power 'icon'.. I've never heard of selecting by icon. Icons do all have meaning behind them..

'Animation time' / 'attack speed' is shown in the same block as activation time, isn't it? Click on the  

Spoiler

Detailed Power Information at character creation:

 

You are showing your preference, I get it.

However, what's important across archetypes can vary. (melee damage, ranged damage, controls, support)

 

Note: City of Data is great for detailed numbers. Here one link for Hack: https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=brute_melee.broad_sword.hack&at=stalker

Edited February 5 by Troo

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, Lockely said:

Having a Basic, Intermediate, and Expert power display option is only going to help people in the long run.

 

We basically already have that, with the power descriptions, Detailed Info, and City of Data.

[Luminara]

Looking back to when I started, what I remember is learning that there were players using "Brawl Index", a measurement of the strength of attacks relative to Brawl.  That was a direct result of both the lack of detailed information and the Minor/Light/Moderate/Yadayada nomenclature.  Detailed Info was a significant step toward removing some of that confusion... but it's not always reliable.  Some attacks display the wrong information (corruptor and controller powers run into this problem frequently), others just don't display damage info at all, even though they deal damage (pseudo-pets mucking up the works).

 

And then there are the secondary effects, which tend to be unnecessarily vague.  "Some enemies may be Stunned by this attack."  That doesn't actually tell the player that Stuns use the mag scale, that it only works on minions or below, or even that it's not restricted to working on specific enemies in a specific group.  It doesn't tell the player that it's only a XX% chance, or that slotting enhancements for that doesn't improve the chance... or the magnitude.  That's detrimental to the new player experience.

 

Point being, a lot of the nomenclature for descriptors is too vague.  It works against the game, not for it, by confusing and misleading the player and creating the potential for a negative experience.  Someone looking at one archetype's "Light Damage" attack, then seeing another's dealing almost twice as much damage, isn't developing an appreciation for scalars or modifiers, he/she is disgruntled at having selected the "wrong" archetype.  Someone slotting for those low chance secondary effects and never seeing them do anything useful isn't going to open the info window and look for the problem, he/she is going to feel "cheated" because he/she could've used those slots for something better.

 

And all of the hard info provided by the game is nerd food, not newb food.  Descriptors are noob food, and it needs to be more nourishing.  Descriptors need to be better.  Normalize the references to damage across the whole game, so players aren't left wondering why this attack that deals "Moderate" damage only deals as much damage as that attack which is "Light".  It can still be relatively vague, but informatively vague, so players always know what a descriptor means, can always look at that "Light" descriptor and know it means the attack deals between XX and YY damage.  The same needs to be done for secondary effects, and in the same way.  If an attack has a 10% chance to Stun minions, let the player know by adding that information.  A slight chance to Stun minions or lower rank.

 

Descriptors are one of the first things players see when they're looking at powers.  They should be clear, informative and intuitive, not obfuscatory and confusing.  The addition of detailed info windows and Real Numbers and combat attribs only brought the game halfway out of the dark.  It needs to come the rest of the way into the light.

 

I'd also recommend looking into alleviating the over-reliance on the mouse.  There's a lot of repetitive clicking and dragging, and it's not just annoying to new players, it's a problem for long-time players as well.  Having to drag and drop 70+ enhancements during a respec, having to drag-click-click-click for conversions... repetitious actions need to be streamlined in some way.  Crafting, working in the market, respecing...  Keyboard actions in the respec window, for example, to highlight an enhancement, navigate to a slot and deposit the enhancement.  The same could be done with conversions.  The "Hey, look, these computer thangs has mices, people LOVE CLACKING AND DROGGING!" era died before this game launched, but 20 years later, we're still Windows 95ing our way through the UI.  It's off-putting for experienced players, to the point of numerous threads in the Suggestions forum asking for respec overhauls and conversion overhauls and AH overhauls, imagine how it feels to a new player, especially in the smartphone era.

 

Of course, UI design is a challenge and a lot of old hands would be up in arms if the Co* UI were ripped out and replaced, but just allowing the keyboard to be used for some of the clicking and dragging would go a very long way toward making it a better experience and easier for new players to become comfortable with the more complex aspects of the game.  A key to select something, keys to move it, a key to drop it, boom, easier, faster and smoother interaction.

 

And a dedicated key to dismiss pop-up windows would be fucking brilliant.  Pop-ups have been discussed already, and moving them out of the center of the screen would be good, but why the fuck don't they just go away when we hit Escape?  That's been an industry standard since the 90's and we still can't do it without navigating binds or macros.  Come on.

[noogens2]

For a suggestion, what about another default chat tab that only has the "Looking for Group" filter enabled?  This actually helps anyone who likes to PUG a lot and lets players easily see all the teaming requests without all the extra stuff shown in the global channel.   I actually do this for every character I create.