Crysis

Sipping coffee on this gorgeous Labor Day (US holiday) morning, I got to thinking about this thread again. One of the unique things about this game is the amazing variety of play styles that can be supported by pretty much any AT. I’ve played melee-oriented “scrappers” out of Dominators, Controller-y Blasters and Masterminds and a whole host of “you are playing it wrong buddy” kinds of builds. It’s just one reason that I’ve enjoyed this game since Beta and I’m still learning stuff today. There was a time I actually quit playing the game (when IO’s were introduced) because I thought a game I’d ‘mastered’ was forever ruined by the damn crafting system and I -despised- crafting in other games. But I buckled down, learned how it worked (thank god for Mids!) and still enjoying it today. Proc’s were the next big discovery. I -thought- I understood them in Live but really only managed to scratch the surface. Then I started reading stuff from @Bopper and @Sir Myshkin and watched the layers of the onion slowly peeled back. For example….did you know that some procs are coded to be “self applied” to the $Target? Crazy huh? Well once you know this, and know the ‘why’s’ behind it, you begin to understand how game changing Proc’s can be. Early on I discovered the Tankerminding approach to playing a MM, one of my favorite AT’s. I didn’t quite appreciate the value of it the way so many other players did, until I started to compare their builds (posted here or shared with me) to my own. One of the things I’ve always done is take at least 1 or more of the 3 “attacks” a MM is given in their primary. The common wisdom, almost universally, is the attacks suck, the damage sucks for a MM, take the 3 summons, the 2 empowerment’s and the 1 ‘extra’ and skip the attacks. Better stuff can be had from Boxing, or Brawl, blah blah blah. If we are talking straight damage on a comparative level, I totally get that mindset. This game is ultimately about eliminating your targets faster than they can eliminate you, and that’s all about DPS. But that’s where I misinterpreted a MM’s strengths. In a big, big way. If you have no attacks, particularly no ranged attacks, your ability to hold aggro with just your secondary powers is highly unlikely. Your henchmen will be doing far more damage than will you, and the “stand back and support” mindset then kicks in. Gotta keep those critters alive so they can keep fighting for me! Well, yes and no. I mean the HC Dev’s just gave us a massive clue when they reduced the cost of summoning/resummoning our henchmen. It was always a high cost because unlike most other AT’s that don’t use pets, we spend all our END up front for our DPS. Everyone else spends it “as they use it for outputting damage.” Thus we still have these big endurance penalties for our attacks….because our real DPS is from our henchmen. But fundamental to “Tankerminding” is learning to use Bodyguard mode. Effectively, you are pulling all the damage onto yourself to split the incoming damage across you and your henchmen, effectively adding massive +RES to you and your posse. But if you can’t keep pulling aggro, you’ll at best get the most use out of BG mode during the alpha. This is OK for most spawns, but less than favorable for mezzing spawns. Basically, if they mezz, you want your henchmen to take the alpha so you stay fully capable of directing the outcome. If a non-mezzing spawn, then you take the alpha in BG mode. But how are you going to hold aggro without Presence pool? Simple answer, and the one I’ve always known (without really thinking about the WHY of it) is that you have to be attacking so the aggro math see’s you as a threat. And that’s why my “Presence-less” pool MM’s always questioned why I needed the Presence pool when I seemed fully capable of grabbing and holding aggro just fine even with my henchmen set purely on aggressive mode (not in Bodyguard) once the engagement begins. Because I’ve -always- taken my attacks and, almost always, slotted them up with Procs. So the long winded purpose of this post is that you consider WHY you need Presence. It’s because you need to take and hold aggro. But you can do that with many secondaries (/Time is my favorite and Times Juncture is gold for this). But the attacks by themselves are still anemic for outputting damage and once you know how aggro math works you’ll realize the importance of Procc’ing out those attacks. I could go on and on but I’d highly, HIGHLY encourage you to go check out @Redlynne’s post, especially the post in that thread I’ve linked. The whole thread is full of deep learnings for MM’s, why the personal attacks matter, how Proc’s work, the synergy between your attacks and how they can be used not for damage directly, but to indirectly augment the DPS and/or survivability of your henchmen, why the Dev’s likely built MM’s with inherently low native damage and high endurance penalties, etc etc. Just a wealth of information. If you read it, and understand it, the whole question about needing Presence pool will take on a very different perspective for you. Yes, Presence Pool can be very helpful to some MM’s with certain secondaries, even more so if they take none of their primary attacks (or only slot them with damage). Because you gotta pull aggro to hold aggro and you gotta out-aggro your henchmen. But it’s not universally required for all power set combo’s and in many cases, it can totally sub-optimize your performance as a MM. But Redlynne and others have done a much better job than I could here explaining the insights and the “why is that true” so just grab a coffee and start reading. Seriously. It may be absolutely game-changing insights for you. A more recent discussion on Provoke’s usefulness is here also if you got through Redlynne’s stuff and want the simpler version:

While I can understand your POV when high-level teaming on a MM, that's more an issue with the OP nature of T4'd incarnate-fueled top end teams playing against normal PVE content. DA, etc. generally can provide more challenge even for top tier teams, although granted the game gets pretty easy at that level anyways. Even still, I stand by my comment when playing on teams -and- solo both. At 50++ levels and prior as well. It's a buff you can drop on any henchman at pretty much any time and it's fire-and-forget, requiring no maintenance other than re-application as desired. And honestly, I'm usually the one doing the steamrolling at that level anyways, usually the first to next spawn.

I have numerous /Time and /Storm MM’s and on those two sets I’ve found Provoke to be ineffective vs what I can do to pull and hold aggro with Times Juncture and my various Storm powers respectively. I’ve taken Provoke on those builds and then respecced right back out as it’s just a wasted power pool relative to my secondary. I have other secondaries that benefit from it but not those two. And for pulling aggro at range, I’m just not one of those attack-less MM’s so again…..not needed.

I’ll never understand a MM player who skips attacks and/or buffs to the henchmen that improves their damage output. The whole point of this game is taking out your enemy as quickly as possible. Smoke Flash is what Ninja MM’s get instead of gang war (moar damage), hellfire (moar damage) etc. If you ignore it I really have to ask why you are playing a MM.

I’ve played Dark attack characters across the spectrum, and am currently leveling a DM/Shield scrapper. Had a DM/SR scrapper back on live for many years as well, as well as DM/Regen back when those were all the rage. Survivability isn’t an issue at +4/x8 even in your upper 30’s or low 40’s, with a few exceptions for Def Debuffing enemies. But I never feel like my kill speed is fast enough with Dark Melee. The heavy hitters just don’t seem to be there for the set and I always feel like I’m missing a ‘finisher.’ A lot of this is illusion as with high recharge you can Soul Drain frequently but since my kill speed takes a bit, I often find myself “herding” several groups (AAO does this nicely), ducking around a corner and trying to keep a pile on me so I can get the best use of Soul Drain repeatedly. Hoping having Fireball slotted out soon will help alleviate this for me.

Occasionally I’ll make an alt without having a bio/costume first, but that’s very rare. Usually just a placeholder all single color costume and a name that I’ll come back to later. But that’s pretty rare for me to have the character before the bio. In 99% of the cases of rolling an alt, I’ve got a conceptual idea in mind for a character, bio/background included. I need a “reason” for their existence. They have to have an origin story for their powers. Then I’ll try to find a way to tell that story in 1024 characters or less. Then I’ll work thru dozens of names. I’m a history buff and often pull from history that can easily thread its way into their bio to create a name. Then its time to decide powersets to match the bio/origin/reason for existence. Costume often comes last, but there are times I’ll see a great costume posted and it will inspire a story and from there the character creation process. The hard part for me is often the 1024 character limit. How to tell their story in so few words. Not coincidentally, I created PnP RPG characters the same way for many, many years. Used to write full backstories for many of them, which helped to role play them. In AD&D I couldn’t create an alignment without that backstory since it spoke to the why they were the way they were. Old habits in an older gamer I guess.

I’ve done this but never sure if it works better there or in Health for me. Just doesn’t seem to proc much in Beacon.

I have several Thugs/* builds where I almost always take dual wield and cross punch. Duel Wield more for the FF+Rech proc and a few others, but Cross Punch does really good damage and it's a lot of fun to follow the Bruiser and do the beat downs together.

Thank you kind hero!

Hey @Bopper maybe I'm just not following your OP with all the updates, but the last build description listed in the OP is for a "Siren's Blood: Proc-Heavy DPS Fortunata." But I don't see a build posted at the bottom of that description like I do for all the others. Is that build posted elsewhere in this thread because if it is I can't locate it.

Ditto this. COX is also a pretty old game that was already outdated by the time Live shut down in 2012. Thus it likely appeals more to the retro gaming crowd than hardcore MMO players at this point. We are niche players playing a niche game from a niche historical segment of the MMO landscape. I doubt that more than a handful of WoW refugees will be attracted to COX as anything more than an interesting experiment on a rainy weekend. We just don’t have much to offer the hardcore gamer. This has always been a game for casuals and now it’s an old, lower population game of retro casuals.

Can I have a gift receipt at least for….reasons? Im sure it took some effort to come up with these stats the first time, and I’m equally sure the total player pop is significantly less than when these stats were first produced. Even still, a smaller population somehow makes updated stats even more interesting. So count me in as someone who would love an update even if I don’t expect one.

Meant to come back and reply. No, still doesn't work. Slot removed, do Auto-Arrange, that completes. Still can't place the slot. I'm sure Powers/Slots is toggled on and it clearly says I have one slot to place. But only way I can do it is to save the build, exit Mids, come back and instantly....I've got a slot to place somewhere. Very repeatable.

@plainguy is the crazy petless MM. I’ve tried it and ended up respeccing into full MM builds it as I just didn’t like the feel of playing a MM minus pets. But to the Endurance issues, I just stocked up on recovery serum, the Survival Amplifier, refreshed my base recovery empowerment buff frequently and also took a secondary (three different ones for three different builds) like Kin, Time or Cold for the +End. On Cold, Heat Loss slotted up on a high recharge build is dang near as powerful as Destiny Ageless by itself. Endurance was very manageable that way. The Victory Rush power is also useful. Endurance isn’t a huge issue in HC due to all the buffs available from different sources.

I was running several missions with my Arch/Nin last night and the Crits are frequent enough and solid enough that I honestly felt like I was playing a scrapper on a “slow” night. I’d certainly take more frequent crit chances but if too much more it will definitely infringe on Scrappers inherent.

True, but by end game, +DEF buffs from others are so abundant that it’s not game breaking for many. And outside of soloing and/or as use for pulling, the long animation time needed for the heavy hitting snipe just isn’t that useful at endgame anyways…stuff dies way too fast. Or, do what I do….carry a bunch of unslotters and just pull the proc when you need the long range snipe capabilities….and then re-slot it otherwise. Enhancements aren’t permanent.

True, best I could come up with is a Demon/Dark for five pets. I’d need to fiddle with my build a bit because I don’t know if Hecatombs 10% recharge bonus is worded same as that of a four piece SCOMM 10% Recharge bonus. The remainder of the SCOMM bonuses aren’t quite as juicy for the slots required, although stacked 4% damage bonuses for 2-slotting would be interesting.

“Uber” is very situational for a Bots MM in this game. It really depends on what outcomes make you feel “Uber.” If you want to solo AV’s, a Bots/Traps is pretty Uber. If you want to dominate PVE, solo or in teams, hard to beat a Bots/Time. Bots/Elec is a good team build, but I find /Elec in general to be lacking the tools to buff up Bots damage. If you want to -BE- the team, try Bots/Storm. In fact, almost any /Storm MasterMind, properly slotted for +Recharge (inclusive of taking and using a handful of MM attacks that can be procc’d out) is a force to behold. You don’t even bother with Hurricane on that build. You just spawn out 2-3 Tornado’s and Lightning Storms and let all that provide significant cover for your Bots to do their thing. It’s glorious battlefield chaos and carnage, and make sure you slot for KB2KD unless you prefer extra chaos with your carnage. I think it was likely /Storm’s performance in the Pylon tests over in the Scrapper forums that got people to understand how pairing /Storm up with Bots/, Thugs/, Demons/ could make for a 4-figure DPS machine. A bit situational and works best against hard targets, but it’s pretty much the best Pew Pew Pew you can get out of Bots/.

I run a plethora of Storm AT’s, across many AT’s. I have an Ill/Storm controller with water spout that can throw out Tornado x2 and LS x2 every spawn due to high recharge and I also have Spectral Terror. The only time I get AV’s running is if there’s a second stormy on the team.

Not my decision but per Capt Powerhouse a couple years ago the entire sets mechanics is going to be stood on its head, scrapped and redone.

I generally keep a big stash of what I consider all my “key” enhancements. Stuff like LOTG’s, all the PVP uniques, Numina/Miracle +RECOVERY, Perf Shifter +END, etc etc. And I have never sold a purple drop, always craft and stash. I also keep a strong inventory of certain ATO’s and WinterO’s. But after all that, I just generally BIN if price isn’t set at too rich of a premium, or buy nearby within set or an adjacent set and convert/flip into what I need. On the rare occasion like you mention that I’d need something that was fodder for converting into something worth more, well, there’s always something else to convert into that category if you are willing to blow some converters. The RNG gods frown on me so often I end up with that trash more often than I’d like to admit. So ultimately, it’s a gamble of whether or not you can convert into that fodder yourself just by luck or you (gasp) actually grab something more premium and down-convert within category to get what you really want. And, for new players, hopefully realize what you are doing and ask yourself why you really wanted the duller penny of the two in first place.

Wow, and I thought I put a lot of work in just tweaking my costumes and finding a suitable name/bio to match! This is crazy levels of effort. Bravo!

I’ll be happy to come back to this thread if the devs ever up the damage/aggro limits of the set. It should play like a (short) ranged scrapper, minus crits. It plays more like an armored Dominator instead. I really have little issue with Sent secondaries. It’s just been unnecessarily neutered in damage. They address that and the AT will blossom.

Rule of 5 still apply?

I often am using a Survival Amplifier while leveling up and don’t always notice when it needs replenishing until I’m gasping for END again. Make sure that’s not the case for you? Secondarily, the recent change to “stackable” travel powers has me now stacking many whereas I used to not bother because they’d toggle each other off. Having Sprint + Ninja Run + combat jumping + Fly all running at once without any ENDREDUX is quite noticeable on the blue bar.