How would you buff Sentinels?

[Cooltastic]

7 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I'm going to side a bit with Nihilii here: if an equal amount of people liked the AT as is, in fact, if a plurality, not even an even split, loved the AT as is, then it's best not to mess with it. I dont think that's where the AT stands. My impression at the time, though, is that only a small minority of the players actually enjoy the nature or dependency the AT has on it's inherent.

 

The Feast or Famine concept could be done better, but I don't think it would even fit this AT's name. Honestly, i feel it would had fit much better a no-longer possible Dominator concept. That AT also was originally designed with a Feast or Famine design, still has some of it, but there was no upside to the Famine side.

 

I am thinking, maybe at some point in the future, an AT that allows a well implemented Feast or Famine model, where both sides had their upsides. Maybe i can make that Melee Support AT everyone keeps asking for work with such an inherent... Call it the Reaper... Famine mode makes all support abilities stronger and drastically weakens your offensive, Feast mode makes all offensive abilities stronger but drastically weakens your support abilities, and you need to build up the red meter bar to swap modes... anyways, now I'm rambling... shelving that for a so-not-soon-more-potentially-never bucket.

If it comes with a giant Scythe melee weapon sign me the hell up!

[TheAdjustor]

9 minutes ago, Cooltastic said:

If it comes with a giant Scythe melee weapon sign me the hell up!

Man If TW can get a proper giant scythe instead of that axe thing it has, I don't care how hard it gets nerfed.

[MirrorDarkly]

On 9/19/2019 at 8:00 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Blasters, as glass-cannons, tend to have a lot more AoE and burst potential via snipes and nukes. On top of nukes (that other ranged ATs get) Blasters also tend to get double-damage boosters at very high modifier levels (Aim + Build Up or some equivalent) that allows heavy aoe burst potential. Sentinels by design should never step in that territory.

 

This is why the sentinel don't have snipes and their nukes are heavily toned down, to work be more in line with melee "nukes" like Lightning Rod.

 

As for the vision for the lookout, it's still not finalized, but a form of inherent Tactics is a close call, things that would buff tohit and perception, and enemy -stealth (that might not be useful a lot in PvE, but there are enemies like Arachnos that can make heavy use of stealth and -perception.) ToHit buffing can also make most other ranged ATs better by buffing their snipes via tohit. In PvP, a sentinel might work as a bit of anti-stalker, but that will need to be tweaked carefully.

 

I have to be honest that seems like a very bad ability. As soon as everyone is hit capped it will essentially be meaningless unless you happened to be teamed with another ranged character that both has a Snipe and does not have enough extra accuracy to get the full insta-snipe damage bonus.

 

Upping the damage scale to compensate just makes them blaster clones that trade some damage for survival.

 

Now if you could tie extra accuracy into something that would be useful to them and the whole team that would be awesome. Like maybe an aura that ups accuracy and gives single target attacks a %chance to do an extra tick of damage that scales by how much over the accuracy cap you are.

 

Edit: And to keep the damage from getting crazy in large teams the Sental could have a different % chance or base damage value or even both then everyone else. So they could get an extra tick of (X * hit chance) damage 30% of the time and everyone else within range gets (Y * hit chance) damage 10% of the time and pets might only have a 5% chance or whatever.

Edited September 21, 2019 by MirrorDarkly

[Pharce]

On 9/20/2019 at 3:00 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Blasters, as glass-cannons, tend to have a lot more AoE and burst potential via snipes and nukes. On top of nukes (that other ranged ATs get) Blasters also tend to get double-damage boosters at very high modifier levels (Aim + Build Up or some equivalent) that allows heavy aoe burst potential. Sentinels by design should never step in that territory.

 

This is why the sentinel don't have snipes and their nukes are heavily toned down, to work be more in line with melee "nukes" like Lightning Rod.

 

As for the vision for the lookout, it's still not finalized, but a form of inherent Tactics is a close call, things that would buff tohit and perception, and enemy -stealth (that might not be useful a lot in PvE, but there are enemies like Arachnos that can make heavy use of stealth and -perception.) ToHit buffing can also make most other ranged ATs better by buffing their snipes via tohit. In PvP, a sentinel might work as a bit of anti-stalker, but that will need to be tweaked carefully.

I would venture to say that thematically we could take this a step farther. A sentinel could not only see something(to-hit) but also identify it’s weakness (-res, -def or -dam). Thematically a sentinel could have a personal slight perception bonus. But then a team weakness defbuff sort of like opportunity is. 

I have a lvl 50 sentinel fire/rad/psi he is loads of fun. I even like opportunity somewhat basically just the - resist part. If you took away the damage buff and end redux part and instead gave a minor +tohit and perception maybe +range while i was building up my bar i would be happy. When i fire off the opportunity i loose those bonuses(+tohit, percep, range) because i’m too busy smacking one target.

But if you don’t get around to it till 2021 i’ll still be playing my sent.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Pharce
Gramar

[Nurvus]

How about this for an Inherent: Keep the bar building the same, but change its activation to clicking Opportunity like Dom's Domination. Completely revamp Opportunity to a single target debuff that builds up -res and -def as it persists on the target. When the debuff ends, the Sentinel (and maybe allies neaby?) gain some health and endurance. If the debuff ends prematurely from mob death, the Sentinel (and allies? might be too much) gains some health, endurance, and refunds a portion of the Opportunity bar. This turns the inherent into something that can be used on weak mobs for sustain, or on tough mobs for a good debuff. 

 

As for an anti-Stalker mechanic, I have no idea how PvP in this game even plays out. Maybe Opportunity can buff the Sent's perception when the bar is full. My mind also went to WoW's Hunter's Mark which allowed Hunters and their party members to see a marked target even if it was stealthed. But again, I don't know what PvP is like in this game. That might alter things too much, unless Stalkers are an OP scourge atm or something. 

Edited September 21, 2019 by Nurvus

[Menelruin]

Hmm, a Sentinel is meant to stand watch over one area....what if we take a cue from Bastion in Overwatch?  Take one of the powers from their secondary (like Stalkers do) and change it to become "guardian mode," where movement speed is drastically reduced, but ranged and damage are increased?  Or even better than increasing damage straight up, is to have their attacks all apply a small -res, thus giving teams a reason to want them. 

 

EDIT:  You know what?  You could also VASTLY increase their range in this mode, beyond that of Blasters.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Menelruin

[ZeeHero]

For starters give em the same aoe cap as every other AT.

[Rathulfr]

1 hour ago, ZeeHero said:

For starters give em the same aoe cap as every other AT.

@Captain Powerhouse has previously indicated that this is a non-starter. He wants the AoE features of Sentinels to be more similar to those of Scrappers, not Blasters.

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by Rathulfr

[Rathulfr]

4 hours ago, Menelruin said:

Hmm, a Sentinel is meant to stand watch over one area....what if we take a cue from Bastion in Overwatch?  Take one of the powers from their secondary (like Stalkers do) and change it to become "guardian mode," where movement speed is drastically reduced, but ranged and damage are increased?  Or even better than increasing damage straight up, is to have their attacks all apply a small -res, thus giving teams a reason to want them. 

 

EDIT:  You know what?  You could also VASTLY increase their range in this mode, beyond that of Blasters.

All Sentinel attacks already include a small -Res (5%), and their inherent (when triggered) is a much larger -Res (20%).

Edited September 22, 2019 by Rathulfr

[aethereal]

So, as someone whose first 50 on HC was an archery/ninjutsu sentinel, I think it's broadly fun to have the opportunities, it's neat to be able to trade off offense vs defense, and it's nice to have a single-tough-target killing niche.  I agree that feast-or-famine is kinda a weird theme, that the AT is slightly under-tuned, and it's frustrating to have the whole first-two-attacks thing when you are so likely to want to otherwise skip one of those attacks.

 

This is probably crazy, but:

 

What if the two opportunities became two mutually-exclusive toggles available at L1, not slottable.  Offensive mode and defensive mode.  Offensive adds a damage proc to all attacks, defensive adds a heal and endurance heal to all attacks.  They might cost endurance or might not, might have a cooldown like Hybrid abilities or might not, but the point is that they're available for extended times (not 15 seconds), on demand, with no attack reliance.  They give you some more durability and longevity when you need it, or offensive punch when you need it.

 

Then, replace the current -5% resists and -20% resist on opportunity hits with a -X% resist-all on all sentinel attacks, where X is the animation time, in seconds, stacking, with a loooong duration, like 30 seconds?  Even 40 seconds?

 

No damage scale change, no target caps change.

 

So what's the upshot?  Sentinels do what they do today, but a little better.  They don't get much -resist on fast-dying foes (but that was never that big a deal), but in AV or GM fights, they eventually get you to -30%+ resist-all for the entire rest of the duration of the fight, making them really powerful hard-target killers -- eventually.  It's synergistic with their set (you need to survive long enough to build up your damage bonus, hence the armor set) and the rest of their inherent (defensive toggle gets you where you need to go).

 

They'd also continue their role as "an easily recommendable newbie AT."  You tell people to keep their defensive toggle on as much as possible and then just go shoot shit.  Done.

 

This I think runs the risk of overtuning them, but they would remain outright bad farmers, I think, and less effective at clearing normal spawns that scrappers even with their offensive toggle.

[ZeeHero]

1 hour ago, Rathulfr said:

@Captain Powerhouse has previously indicated that this is a non-starter. He wants the AoE features of Sentinels to be more similar to those of Scrappers, not Blasters.

 

Then they need damage comparable to scrappers.

[Hyperstrike]

"How would you buff Sentinels."

With a Force Fielder, a Sonic, two Kins, a Rad and an Emp, leaving one spot for Vengeance-bait.

[Rathulfr]

57 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Then they need damage comparable to scrappers.

I believe that's part of the plan, somehow.

[Zepp]

The plan, as stated earlier, is to rework the inherent, increase the damage to just below scrapper levels, and somehow give them a meaningful perception and/or ToHit buff. This would make them good as anti-stalkers in PVP and also good against some Arachnos. The information is incomplete, and I may have read into it a little, but it seems like this is where it is headed.

I think the most likely resolution of the opportunity mechanic is that they will merge the effects and make it triggerable by either the T₁ or T₂.

[summers]

One of the first things I notice is that the secondary feels very demanding but doesn't really return a lot of value. The numbers are relatively low and there's not a lot of interaction happening there with the environment. It feels like a drag to buy so many powers and toggles to get moderate levels of survivability, while a Blaster can for instance have a much more interactive and interesting secondary and do a roughly similar job of defence with IOs. Of course, these develop late and at a high cost, but it feels uninspiring when I'm picking powers, like I'm not being rewarded when it should be a much more positive experience.

[Megajoule]

That's what armor sets (for Scrappers and Tankers) look like.  *shrug*  Those who've played such sets are used to them.

The "added flexibility" of Blaster secondaries came at the cost of spending a lot more time face down ... at least until the advent of IOs.

I don't spend my time deep in theorycraft or chasing set bonuses, so I'll have to take your word for it that IOs make armor sets redundant or irrelevant.  If so, that's unfortunate for the game in a lot of ways.

[Steampunkette]

Captain Powerhouse stated that the Inherent, Opportunity, is going out the window whole-cloth.

 

There will be no Opportunity power in any way, shape, or form.

 

There will be a baseline damage increase. There will not be a target-cap change. And the inherent will have something to do with being a Spotter/Lookout.

 

Ways to be a spotter/lookout include things like increasing ToHit and Perception. But also things like inherent debuffs akin to Surveillance from the Bane Spider EAT, where you point out weaknesses in enemy defenses to increase your group's damage. Or Stealth-Based mechanics which allow you to get into position to garner information you can then communicate.

 

 

[oldskool]

I'm OK with the how the core mechanics of the inherent work.  What I mean is that using a T1 activates X and T2 activates Y.  If the function were ability agnostic that'd be great too.  In real gameplay, the effects (bonus damage, resource restore) are so minor that these things do not influence what powers I take.  I choose the T1 or T2 (or both) depending on my build goals and/or the DPA of the powers.  The choice of which Opportunity to trigger isn't even a factor.  That alone is pretty good reason to scrap it or buff.  When the inherent has such a minimal impact to the play of the AT that you can ignore it entirely, then something is wrong.  

Anyway, since the AoE thing was addressed and explained that Sentinels are ranged Scrappers (as suspected) that's not worth discussing by me.  The inherent may be on the chopping block too, and I really don't know what else I'd do to fix it.  I will participate in whatever test version comes up since I'm pretty invested into the AT these days.   

So, that leaves a few other things that I would like to see done to "buff" the AT.  

1) Revisit the AT defense scale modifier.  Yes, players can cap resistance or softcap defense with some sets and influence spent.  However, the AT defense scale modifier effects more than just defense or resistance in the Secondary.  Things like crowd control protection are also linked to the defense modifier making the mez resistance weaker.  Its a minor quibble for me, but it is something that bugs me.  Also, sets like Super Reflexes that depend on defense debuff resistance have 70% the value of a Tanker set vs 75% the value in Scrapper/Stalker sets.  So it feels a lot like Sentinels pay a LOT in their Secondaries just to have the ability to largely ignore CC effects AND play at range.  In practice Sentinels are durable but is there a good reason for them to be the only AT in the game with less value in defensive powers across the board (both secondaries and pool powers)?  If the AT did more damage and played more glass cannon, then I'd agree but that just isn't the case in real play.  My suggestion is to raise their modifiers to 75% like Scrappers/Stalkers to whom they share more in common than they do Blasters/Defenders/Corruptors.  

2) The ATOs need a serious review.  The core set bonuses are OK.  The uniques largely suck.  This is a problem with a few ATs, but in Sentinels they are pretty terrible.  Sentinel's Ward has granted me a whopping +19 absorb shield against level 54 enemies.  WOW!  Opportunity Strikes has the potential to be very powerful, but it is has a PPM value of 2 combined with a 50+% recharge bonus.  You need powers on the extreme end of animation and recharge in order to make the proc trigger consistently.  Combined with the current state of the inherent granting "meh" levels of performance, the Strikes ATO is not as useful as it sounds.  I've gotten great results in very specific use cases but that is going to be well outside the majority of play.  People shouldn't feel a need to do the amount of research necessary in order to get a moderate amount of output from their AT.  Seeing as how the entire inherent may be changed, that would be a great opportunity (see what I did there?) to make the ATO uniques better.  Ideally they would get the Stalker treatment where they can potentially shift your gameplay but I'd settle for useful in at least 70-80% of build cases.  Currently their level of usefulness is in niche set ups.  

3) Revisit some power changes.  This was touched on already by a few people, but it is a big one.  Some sets like Assault Rifle were hurt far more than it was helped by the port to Sentinel.  Disorienting Shot is a T2 power and it is one of the best DPA powers in the set.  Slug was moved up in selection tier but it takes a back seat to Disorienting Shot.  The appeal of AR is how many targets it can hit with its cones.  However, Sentinels have a lower cap which hurts the AoE flavor of the set and its single target potential wasn't improved to compensate.  Sonic Blast is only cones but isn't so limited in targets.  AR could benefit from a similar treatment.  Dark Blast's Life Drain needs some tweaks.  Honestly, I'd be happy with just increasing the heal to match the 10% value in Blaster/Defender/Corruptor versions.  Psychic Blast's Psionic Strike (the snipe replacement) isn't worth the power pick for most players.  Its DPA is pretty poor.  Generally I don't think people like long animation powers.  Psionic Strike could use a cutting down on its casting while evaluating the damage it deals.  Same goes for Scramble Thoughts.  I like Scramble Thoughts (hell, I like Psychic Blast!) but I feel like I am in a minority of players that thinks this set is even remotely OK.  

 

4) If the old inherent stays or a new inherent runs on a build/spend mechanic, then please make sure powers are somewhat uniform.  The amount of Opportunity generated by various power categories is currently not uniform.  The PBAoE category seems to generate very little Opportunity meter vs others like Targeted AoE, Melee/Range, etc.  For example, Hail of Bullets in Dual Pistols generates literally 1 point of Opportunity per activation.  One.  Just 1 point.  That's not a flaw with Tier 9's.  Geyser (Water Blaster) generates double digits in Opportunity meter.  That too is a T9 that builds meter but it is not a PBAoE power.  So no matter how the chips fall on the inherent, I'd love to see consistency in how it is handled.  

 

5) Damage scalar.  Sounds like this is on the radar regardless what happens to the inherent.  Just chiming in that, I'll take it. 😉 I feel the Sentinel is far too penalized in the current Defense values for the current state of its damage output.  

 

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by oldskool

[Replacement]

So, obviously I wasn't there, but I think it makes sense why the SCORE devs seem so unhappy with Sentinel: it's in the midst of an identity crisis.

 

The whole idea of changing modes reeks of a "jack-of-all-trades" character type. It's a mechanism for an AT getting to be great at nothing, normally, and it's supposed to use these mode changes to choose a specialty in the moment.  It's actually a really neat idea... Except that's not what a Sentinel is.

 

So the Opportunity effects we got were basically separate definitions of Sentinel: the Lookout, calling out weaknesses and openings (debuffs); the Sniper (that doesn't have any snipes), getting extra damage due to their keen eyes and aim; and the Bodyguard, jumping in the way of attacks, pushing their own survival tricks up a notch while they protect others.

 

Cool, but isn't a sentinel all of these things? So they had a jack of all trades skeleton, but they put the skin of a Scout on it, and it's not a comfortable fit.

 

Tl;dr: Opportunity is a mechanic for a generalist, and reading CP's posts, I don't think that's what a Sentinel is supposed to be.

[aethereal]

I'm not sure that there's any realistic way to make an AT a "scout" within the framework of recognizably CoH.  It's just fundamentally not the case that 99% of all enemy groups need to scouted.  Stealth isn't prevalent.  Perception isn't that useful except against specifically Arachnos at certain level ranges.  People already max their chance to hit, and giving a damage bonus to specifically allied snipes sounds pretty damn niche.  Having an inherent to-hit bonus yourself would probably make some differences in how very high-end builds slot things, but most players won't have the sophistication to bother with it, and it still won't feel like scouting.  (I mean, it seems like about 80% of the player-base is ignorant of the res debuffs that Sentinels currently get and that their opportunities apply -- are they going to notice to hit buffs, which are probably less important?)

 

An interesting role that probably is too "tanky" would be a non-tank initiator.  Like maybe at the start of each combat (ie, when you are attacked or attack after 8 seconds of not being attacked), you get a substantial absorb shield that let you handle alpha (but no way to make it come back without going 8 seconds without being attacked).  That might loosely fit into the idea of scouting or being the vanguard ahead of the group (or the rear-guard, dealing with ambushes), though in practice, again, I don't think any inherent will feel all that "scouty."

[Myrmidon]

20 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Captain Powerhouse stated that the Inherent, Opportunity, is going out the window whole-cloth.

 

There will be no Opportunity power in any way, shape, or form.

 

There will be a baseline damage increase. There will not be a target-cap change. And the inherent will have something to do with being a Spotter/Lookout.

 

Ways to be a spotter/lookout include things like increasing ToHit and Perception. But also things like inherent debuffs akin to Surveillance from the Bane Spider EAT, where you point out weaknesses in enemy defenses to increase your group's damage. Or Stealth-Based mechanics which allow you to get into position to garner information you can then communicate.

 

 

 

Yes, please. 

[Zepp]

Would increasing the range to blaster levels (longer with the ATOs), be reasonable as it would allow for more of a scout-feel sans snipes...

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, Zepp said:

Would increasing the range to blaster levels (longer with the ATOs), be reasonable as it would allow for more of a scout-feel sans snipes...

 Honestly, range isn’t an issue when you can dance among the mêlée happily blasting away with abandoned.😁

[EmpireForgotten]

I'd change the inherent for sentinels to work something like this:

 

Give sentinels a non-damaging, non-aggroable aura that surrounds them. Have it pulse once a second. 

IF the pulse hits an enemy, give the sentinel a buff to regen, recovery, resistance, defense, and recharge (any or all of these would be fine). This buff lasts for 5 seconds and is refreshed every time the pulse hits an enemy. It does not stack with multiple enemies

If the pulse hits 0 enemies, give the sentinel a +Damage +To Hit, +Range (Any or all of these would work)

 

Secondly allow X% of damage to pierce resistance Y% of the time. 

[Weylin]

Here's my take on it...

Two mutually exclusive toggles - Offensive Stance & Defensive Stance

Only one can be active at a time.

Shooting at an enemy with any weapon procs a stacking debuff that either makes the target increasingly vulnerable, or whatever defensive actually does, +lifesteal? -tohit? -damage?

The effect reaches full strength at 10 procs or something, so having two Sentinels will get it there a lot faster, or they can apply both at once if they split.

Each stack of the effect decays over time, so a sentinel can't cap both at once.

 

I'm not sure how to make it clearly visible in-game how much it has built up on a given enemy, but overall it should be far more consistent, and it should be designed to easily reach maximum strength against EBs and AVs well before they go down in a team fight.