Rage (yup again)

[Vanden]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

They aren't doing it for the to hit, they are doing it for damage.  Double Rage changes SS from a mid range set to one of the best sets. 

 

The to hit is a bonus. 

 

That's how this line of discussion started.  You didn't want the to hit touched when the damage is looked at.

 

And are we really going to play both sides of the "too hit" is/isn't an advantage again?

 

It obviously is or you wouldn't want to keep it.  Its enough of an advantage to argue for keeping it even though its an outlier.   

The damage has been discussed to death. We're talking about the ToHit here. It is an advantage, yes, but it's not an unbalancing one. Even double-stacked.

[Bopper]

21 minutes ago, Thezanman said:

No, Aim, it's in Blaster Primary sets.

Then why are we talking about it? That's not snark, I really dont know why Rage is being compared to a Blaster power.

 

But if you're looking for OP ToHit tricks, dont worry about 400% recharge Rage. My Clarion+Power Boost+Farsight does +44% for a whole team permanently (w/ only 200% recharge)...and I dont slot Farsight with ToHit enhancements. That's just the base.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

The damage has been discussed to death. We're talking about the ToHit here. It is an advantage, yes, but it's not an unbalancing one. Even double-stacked.

I brought up the damage since that's the reason people push for the high recharge double rage builds.  That and the 5 second Foot Stomps.   

 

Since as you pointed out correctly no one is building for +40 to hit.  Its just a side effect.

 

Right now the trade off for all this to hit (and damage) are the crashes.

 

In a presumed Base Damage adjusted world with a crashless stacking rage with less +dmg,  what will be the +to hit trade off? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vanden]

11 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

In a presumed Base Damage adjusted world with a crashless stacking rage with less +dmg,  what will be the +to hit trade off?

There doesn't need to be a +ToHit tradeoff, that's what I've been saying.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Heh, do the last mission in the dream doctors arc and say that.

Again, "most" content 😉

[Hyperstrike]

7 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I agree single rage to hit is at least a sane amount. 

 

It doesn't take away from the fact that the goal for SS builds is to get double rage up for as long as possible. 

 

So the +40 is an issue.

 

Why?  As mentioned, you have to make a very SPECIFIC investment in your build to get it.  And it can become build-breaking the longer you try to push the doubled uptime.

Here's my main.

 

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

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Sure, with Hasten up, it reads 71 seconds out of 120.
What you miss in there is the fact that HASTEN ITSELF isn't perma.
Out of Hasten, 89 seconds.
Too much math, assume about 82 seconds.

So it's quite definitively NOT 40% "all the time".

THIS compromised build would be "all the time".

 

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

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[Bopper]

11 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Sure, with Hasten up, it reads 71 seconds out of 120.
What you miss in there is the fact that HASTEN ITSELF isn't perma.
Out of Hasten, 89 seconds.
Too much math, assume about 82 seconds.

I can help you with your math. 

Your Hasten will recharge in 135.4 seconds (not including the math here, but you can trust me), so you will have Hasten up 88.6% of the time, and be without it for 11.4% of the time (120/135.4, 1-120/135.4).

Now the problem we have is asynchronous. If you cast Rage and Hasten at the same time, you will have Rage recharge in 70.52 seconds (best case scenario). If you cast Rage the moment Hasten crashes (thus having 15.4 seconds of no Hasten), you will recharge in 73.69 seconds (worst case scenario). And the numbers can slide between those depending on how much dead-Hasten time is present during your Rage's 120 second duration. 

On average, you can expect a recharge time of 72.21 seconds. That's simply taking the 88.6% Hasten up and 11.4% Hasten down and applying it to your build.

 

Now, the numbers I gave are specific to the first build you posted. It has no relevance to anyone else. I just thought you might find it interesting since it is your main.

Now, if I'm wrong with any of my math, please feel free to let me know and show me how I'm wrong. I admit I rushed this as I'm trying to take care of 2 sick children, so I did not proof all my work.

[Haijinx]

The fact your build isn't perma hasten and not pushing double rage as much as possible doesn't really mean its not a common build goal. 

 

 

[Hyperstrike]

6 hours ago, Bopper said:

I can help you with your math. 

Your Hasten will recharge in 135.4 seconds (not including the math here, but you can trust me), so you will have Hasten up 88.6% of the time, and be without it for 11.4% of the time (120/135.4, 1-120/135.4).

Now the problem we have is asynchronous. If you cast Rage and Hasten at the same time, you will have Rage recharge in 70.52 seconds (best case scenario). If you cast Rage the moment Hasten crashes (thus having 15.4 seconds of no Hasten), you will recharge in 73.69 seconds (worst case scenario). And the numbers can slide between those depending on how much dead-Hasten time is present during your Rage's 120 second duration. 

On average, you can expect a recharge time of 72.21 seconds. That's simply taking the 88.6% Hasten up and 11.4% Hasten down and applying it to your build.

 

Now, the numbers I gave are specific to the first build you posted. It has no relevance to anyone else. I just thought you might find it interesting since it is your main.

Now, if I'm wrong with any of my math, please feel free to let me know and show me how I'm wrong. I admit I rushed this as I'm trying to take care of 2 sick children, so I did not proof all my work.

Yeah.  I know most of this.  It's why I didn't dig into the math (the asynchronous nature of the Hasten/Rage recharge).
But thanks for at least caring enough to do some legwork over it.

 

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

The fact your build isn't perma hasten and not pushing double rage as much as possible doesn't really mean its not a common build goal. 

 

 

And one sin for moving the goalposts of the discussion.

*DING!*

[Megajoule]

This SS player wants Rage to go away be fixed specifically so we don't keep having this discussion.

[golstat2003]

9 hours ago, Megajoule said:

This SS player wants Rage to go away be fixed specifically so we don't keep having this discussion.

Pretty much this.

[Haijinx]

On 11/17/2019 at 11:42 PM, Megajoule said:

This SS player wants Rage to go away be fixed specifically so we don't keep having this discussion.

It will never be fixed.

 

We've been arguing about rage for too long to give it up now.

[Vorlonagent]

On 11/17/2019 at 8:42 PM, Megajoule said:

This SS player wants Rage to go away be fixed specifically so we don't keep having this discussion.

I'm not here enough to agree but...yes.

My 2 cents is the current system is the worst of all worlds.  It's frustrating to have my damage flatline every time Rage quits.  Why have Rage stack if stacking it means increasing amounts of time where the character is offensively useless?   Either give me a consequence for Rage going down that I can fight under, or simply disable Rage stacking. 

 

I would miss the power fantasy of stacked Rage, but non-stacked is better in the sense of less-frustrating than what we have.  Rage is insanely good just perma without being stackable.  

But if you're going to allow Rage to stack, let me damn well stack it.  I'd like to be able to fight, even if sub-par, through the crash.  

Edited November 28, 2019 by Vorlonagent

[boggo2300]

Hey GM folks,  maybe you should start charging for people to make rage threads, and post in them,  you could probably do away with the monthly fundraising if you did...

[Vindicator]

2 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

Hey GM folks,  maybe you should start charging for people to make rage threads, and post in them,  you could probably do away with the monthly fundraising if you did...

Did you miss your dose of Superadine today?

[boggo2300]

50 minutes ago, Vindicator said:

Did you miss your dose of Superadine today?

Superdine is for Troll wannabe's

 

My SS/INV is entirely natural!!  well actually science experiment but that weakens my case 😄

[KelvinKole]

Why not just make Rage work like Reach The Limit for Blasters, numbers adjusted for a melee class? The mechanic already exists, it nullifies any issues with stacking and/or crashing, mechanically accomplishes a very similar thing, and thematically fits; attack more, build rage more, do more damage and hit more frequently. 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

cause reach for the limit sucks lol

[DeepRootz]

On 11/15/2019 at 4:41 PM, Haijinx said:

They aren't doing it for the to hit, they are doing it for damage.  Double Rage changes SS from a mid range set to one of the best sets. 

 

The to hit is a bonus. 

 

That's how this line of discussion started.  You didn't want the to hit touched when the damage is looked at.

 

And are we really going to play both sides of the "too hit" is/isn't an advantage again?

 

It obviously is or you wouldn't want to keep it.  Its enough of an advantage to argue for keeping it even though its an outlier.   

Yes it was for the damage buff.  The extra tohit was gravy.  Surprised no one mentioned that sooner.  Im not really sure why you are even complaining about the to hit mechanic of double stacking rage, when it was pretty much a non issue to begin with.  Also there is nothing wrong with one set having an advantage over another in niche areas, since that's what makes each set fun. 

Edited December 1, 2019 by DeepRootz

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, DeepRootz said:

 Also there is nothing wrong with one set having an advantage over another in niche areas, since that's what makes each set fun. 

Not over another, Over all the others. 

[FDR's Think Tank]

On ‎11‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 9:36 PM, Haijinx said:

It will never be fixed.

 

We've been arguing about rage for too long to give it up now.

It's also a source of endless inspiration for new power sets. Fixing it requires them to essentially explore every possible solution to the issue before ultimately settling on the LAST solution to be tackled/fleshed out well enough to address the concern.

 

It's a painful topic because there is what was intended with the mechanic and what the company allowed to become expected... Without a pain wheel, there is no way to satisfy anyone. It's very hard to balance a game with only two choices. You either do a build that was probably not supposed to be allowed, but became accepted... or you try to make something competitive that doesn't rely on well established cheese. Some people resent how aspects of the game were nerfed, possibly inappropriately, in response to the flawed mechanic... where other people, in invested years into this style of build see no reason to have it taken away now... preferring to find a different solution to balance what they basically want to KEEP. If PvP was more viable in this game the pain wheel would solve all the bickering outside of the forum and on the battlefield. Since this is more of a cooperative game, people are more prone to argue about the rules and whether or not they are being implemented correctly.

 

For a Pain Wheel, I would almost consider building in weaknesses to Pool Powers for specific Archetypes. That might be an alternative angle to increase meta viabilities. However, this would only really affect PvP and wouldn't change the rest of the game.

 

Of course, I can't get enough of the Irony of all the Rage arguments, still blazing hot all these years later. It really shows how much City of Heroes meant to so many...

 

Why haven't they made "Rage" inspirations? They could be Superdine themed, even.

Edited December 1, 2019 by FDR's Think Tank

[Saiyajinzoningen]

16 hours ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

It's also a source of endless inspiration for new power sets. Fixing it requires them to essentially explore every possible solution to the issue before ultimately settling on the LAST solution to be tackled/fleshed out well enough to address the concern.

 

It's a painful topic because there is what was intended with the mechanic and what the company allowed to become expected... Without a pain wheel, there is no way to satisfy anyone. It's very hard to balance a game with only two choices. You either do a build that was probably not supposed to be allowed, but became accepted... or you try to make something competitive that doesn't rely on well established cheese. Some people resent how aspects of the game were nerfed, possibly inappropriately, in response to the flawed mechanic... where other people, in invested years into this style of build see no reason to have it taken away now... preferring to find a different solution to balance what they basically want to KEEP. If PvP was more viable in this game the pain wheel would solve all the bickering outside of the forum and on the battlefield. Since this is more of a cooperative game, people are more prone to argue about the rules and whether or not they are being implemented correctly.

 

For a Pain Wheel, I would almost consider building in weaknesses to Pool Powers for specific Archetypes. That might be an alternative angle to increase meta viabilities. However, this would only really affect PvP and wouldn't change the rest of the game.

 

Of course, I can't get enough of the Irony of all the Rage arguments, still blazing hot all these years later. It really shows how much City of Heroes meant to so many...

 

Why haven't they made "Rage" inspirations? They could be Superdine themed, even.

please tell me that's sarcasm?

[Lazarillo]

On 11/17/2019 at 10:42 PM, Megajoule said:

This SS player wants Rage to go away be fixed specifically so we don't keep having this discussion.

This non-SS player who wanted to to be an SS player had been looking forward so much to having crashless Rage that I'm just utterly bummed that it feels a flat buff was pulled because people were ticked it wasn't OP enough. 😞

Edited December 3, 2019 by Lazarillo

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

This non-SS player who wanted to to be an SS player had been looking forward so much to having crashless Rage that I'm just utterly bummed that it feels a flat buff was pulled because people were ticked it wasn't OP enough. 😞

I spent eight years dealing with all of the Rage changes, I just didn’t feel like changing sets. This time around, I haven’t touched that set because I’m sick of bothering with everything associated with that power as it currently is implemented. Give me a yell when an actual Super Strength rebalance comes along; I’ll be over at the Street Justice condominium until then.

 

 

Funny thing is, Captain Powerhouse has it right the first time with his very first non-stacking iteration that never made it to test. Too bad, because that might have given me enough Stack Junkie tears to finally create my Immortality Elixer.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Myrmidon