Focused Feedback: Pets & Henchmen Updates for December 6, 2019

[M3z]

2 hours ago, barrier said:

You try consistently getting more than 1 pet on a target during a spike window without SB if you think procing out pets works.

 

You literally get four viable PVP attacks that can be properly proc'd out on a mastermind (with solid proc rates, I mean). They are in two patron sets. Mu and Leviathan. That's not ok.

THIS 

 

All of your reliable damage come from thunderstrike (if you elect to go mu mastery), spirit shark jaws, and KO blow, none of which are from your primary (your pets) which SHOULD be where your damage primarily comes from (but does not because of the issues discussed earlier in the thread).

[Lazarillo]

3 hours ago, M3z said:

All of your reliable damage come from thunderstrike (if you elect to go mu mastery), spirit shark jaws, and KO blow, none of which are from your primary (your pets) which SHOULD be where your damage primarily comes from (but does not because of the issues discussed earlier in the thread).

I mean, I doubt Tankers are getting the majority of their damage from their primary either.

[barrier]

3 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

I mean, I doubt Tankers are getting the majority of their damage from their primary either.

Have you ever gotten hit with a KO Blow from a fully incarnd tank? Please dude.

 

Rage, Impale, GPB, Eagle's Claw, etc. Your comparison is so off. I'm not even going into what the fiteclub dudes do.

 

Your snark would be cool if you knew what you were talking about.

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, barrier said:

Have you ever gotten hit with a KO Blow from a fully incarnd tank? Please dude.

 

Rage, Impale, GPB, Eagle's Claw, etc. Your comparison is so off. I'm not even going into what the fiteclub dudes do.

 

Your snark would be cool if you knew what you were talking about.

That's the joke - those are all Tanker secondary powers. Tanker primaries would give you Shield Charge, damage auras, and Burn.

[ScarySai]

For a thread that's supposed to be about focused feedback regarding these specific pet & AI changes, we're sure derailing it with a lot of completely unrelated PVP garbage.

 

So make another thread for the PVP mastermind suggestions, this isn't the place for it.

 

My praise for the changes still stand. Have yet to encounter much issue with bots or thugs.

Edited December 18, 2019 by ScarySai

[Sovera]

... we need another FOTM thread but showing the percentage of people who spend at least an hour a week in PvP. Not only are we derailing but we are going to suffer from the Tanker update issues where all this back and forth will kill the availability of the changes while the devs listen to the rambling.

 

 

Can we all agree THESE changes are good and can go live as is, thanks, then have the 2.5% of the population who PvPs in a MMO ask for balance after the changes are in?

[dangeraaron10]

I agree.  These are positive quality of life changes for MM for all game modes and should go live as soon as possible (assuming they work as intended on the test server).  Number shifting can be done later.  These have been AI improvements MM players have been asking for since forever back on live and again here on HC, often being told in broadcast it'd be too difficult or impossible because of the game's spaghetti code.  

 

That and I really want Mercs to be usable T_T

[Clave Dark 5]

Mercs are usable, I've done it myself!  But not if you're a min/maxer or something I guess.

[siolfir]

7 hours ago, ScarySai said:

For a thread that's supposed to be about focused feedback regarding these specific pet & AI changes, we're sure derailing it with a lot of completely unrelated PVP garbage.

 

So make another thread for the PVP mastermind suggestions, this isn't the place for it.

There is one, it got moved to Suggestions and Feedback.

 

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

Can we all agree THESE changes are good and can go live as is, thanks, then have the 2.5% of the population who PvPs in a MMO ask for balance after the changes are in?

I agree with the highlighted part, which is why I posted that there should be a separate thread for the PvP changes pages a while back. For what it's worth, there's also a PvE thread that was also moved to Suggestions and Feedback which had less traffic in it than the PvP thread.

[GM Miss]

Hey guys! 

 

Let;s make sure to stay on topic in regards to the original post. That will be the most helpful way to provide feedback about these future changes.

[ScarySai]

All I want for Christmas, are these changes~

 

Small thing I've noticed lately, though - after a bit more testing. Thug's T1 minions have a habit of stutter-stepping towards their target instead of staying put, enforcers are pretty well behaved, but the melee centric brute tends to run off way too far at times, still.

 

Bots are VERY well behaved, it's astonishing how much of a difference it is.

 

Demons also appear to be behave, though I fear the demonlings aren't living up to their potential since they don't run into melee as often. Ember's AI should be more aggressive, so he hangs with your pets for the AOE heal and resist aura, as well as his breath weapon.

 

No comment on ninjas, beasts or undead, I don't really play them. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by ScarySai

[Haijinx]

12 hours ago, Sovera said:

... we need another FOTM thread but showing the percentage of people who spend at least an hour a week in PvP. Not only are we derailing but we are going to suffer from the Tanker update issues where all this back and forth will kill the availability of the changes while the devs listen to the rambling.

 

 

Can we all agree THESE changes are good and can go live as is, thanks, then have the 2.5% of the population who PvPs in a MMO ask for balance after the changes are in?

If its even that many

[gameboy1234]

18 hours ago, Sovera said:

Can we all agree THESE changes are good and can go live as is,

Sorry got to be that guy...

 

PVE only: I played a Bots/FF mastermind to 50+ on live.  At low levels, running up to a dude and giving him a smack is a fairly significant part of your damage.  While the changes are pretty good at around 26+, I wonder if we could get the battle drones at levels 30 (or so) and below marked as "normal" rather than "ranged only."  Keeping the assault bot and esp. the protector bots out of melee I think is probably fine.  The same idea might apply to other lowest tier pets.

 

These changes can go to the main servers as-is, but if we could get that little tweak for the lowest level pets in a future patch I think everyone would be happy.  (Don't forget if you don't want your pets rushing in, that Stay and Go To are still available to you.  Just takes a bit more pet management.)

[ScarySai]

8 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

Sorry got to be that guy...

 

PVE only: I played a Bots/FF mastermind to 50+ on live.  At low levels, running up to a dude and giving him a smack is a fairly significant part of your damage.  While the changes are pretty good at around 26+, I wonder if we could get the battle drones at levels 30 (or so) and below marked as "normal" rather than "ranged only."  Keeping the assault bot and esp. the protector bots out of melee I think is probably fine.  The same idea might apply to other lowest tier pets.

 

These changes can go to the main servers as-is, but if we could get that little tweak for the lowest level pets in a future patch I think everyone would be happy.  (Don't forget if you don't want your pets rushing in, that Stay and Go To are still available to you.  Just takes a bit more pet management.)

Only before your first protector, really. Having your bot run ahead will more often than not lead to it's untimely dismantling. 

 

More offensively capable secondaries will manage without the melee attacks, defensive sets like FF will notice a very marginal damage difference, but a much higher chance of survival with a lower chance of your pet running off and overpulling.

 

Overcomplicating things with a pre-32 melee behavior on predominantly ranged pets would be a bad way to handle it. 

 

The pros outweigh any con.

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by ScarySai

[Myrmidon]

16 hours ago, ScarySai said:

All I want for Christmas, are these changes~

 

Small thing I've noticed lately, though - after a bit more testing. Thug's T1 minions have a habit of stutter-stepping towards their target instead of staying put, enforcers are pretty well behaved, but the melee centric brute tends to run off way too far at times, still.

There went your Christmas chance. Perhaps for New Years then.

[ScarySai]

44 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

There went your Christmas chance. Perhaps for New Years then.

Assuming it can be addressed, at least it ends up better in the end.

[gameboy1234]

2 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Only before your first protector, really. Having your bot run ahead will more often than not lead to it's untimely dismantling. 

But losing minions isn't that big of a deal.  The recharge time to resummon them is pretty quick (I think it's been reduced at least twice; originally it was pretty long).  Lose pets, summon more.  You shouldn't (imo) be trying to hang onto your minions no matter what.  Let them fall, you can make more.

 

I might be biased here because as /FF my minions were tougher than average, but I always found the prospect of letting a bot soak *all* the damage, then resummoning them at full health to be the best prospect overall. 

 

(To be clear, you also have to manage your pets, and direct their fire so that they're killing specific targets.  Put those targets down, then the enemy is doing less damage.  After resummoning your pets will now last longer.  If you're not commanding your pets and just letting them do damage willy-nilly then you might lose the second set of minions just as fast as the first.)

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by gameboy1234

[Galaxy Brain]

If AI cannot change based on level, then I am fine with the tradeoff. Have your pet GoTo melee if you wanna use the robopunch

[ScarySai]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

If AI cannot change based on level, then I am fine with the tradeoff. Have your pet GoTo melee if you wanna use the robopunch

That's another thing I forgot to mention. They still have the punch, but if you want them to melee you gotta move them to melee. It's better than having a good formation ruined by your assault bot deciding he's going to melee the war wolf across the map instead of blasting it.

 

Besides, most enemies - especially low level ones - will come to you, anyway.

Edited December 19, 2019 by ScarySai

[Smello]

Tested for a bit with bots/ff. Loving these changes, cannot wait until they make it to live.

 

One thing I noticed, and there's probably nothing that can be done about it, is that while my bots would follow me if I moved away even during a firefight (which is awesome!!), they wouldn't move if I broke LOS with an obstacle or by turning a corner. They keep within the range, but they don't try to keep within sight.
 

I don't know if that could be changed because presumably pathing around obstacles is more complex than just closing distance, but thought I'd bring it up just in case that was doable.

[THEDarkTyger]

On 12/6/2019 at 2:37 PM, The Curator said:

• A number of pets have been classified as "Ranged Only" pets. The AI for these pets will no longer change position in order to use melee powers such as Brawl. They still possess these powers and will use them opportunistically if a target is in range, but will not move in order to do so.
• The pets that no longer move in to use melee attacks are:
  • Demons > Demonlings
  • Demons > Ember Demon
  • Mercenaries > Soldiers
  • Mercenaries > Medic
  • Mercenaries > Spec Ops
  • Mercenaries > Commando
  • Necromancy > Lich
  • Robotics > Battle Drones
  • Robotics > Protector Bots
  • Robotics > Assault Bot
  • Thugs > Thugs
  • Thugs > Arsonist
  • Thugs > Enforcers

Oh thank freaking god!

[plainguy]

What will this mean to actually have 3 battle drones  most of the time ?  Instead of the one crazy one running off all the time ?

What's next cat sleeping with dogs ?

Peace on earth ?

 

I will jump on an check this out.

 

Psst reduce the endurance on Mastermind attacks please.

 

 

[DR_Mechano]

Yup I say go ahead with these changes they've been called for by PvE Masterminds for a bloody long time, not only that other servers have implemented them like several months ago.

 

Sorry PvPers but I really don't want a change that's wanted by quite a large chunk of the largely PvE focused playerbase to end up being like the Tanker Changes where the small minority that PvPs slows them down. Get these changes live and then balance for PvP. If there's anything I can't stand it's PvP focused changes slowing down or affecting PvE changes.

Edited December 22, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[golstat2003]

Yeah we have a volunteer dev team. If we keep trying to let the perfect be the enemy of the good and try to stick every suggested change in every patch, nothing will ever go out. The changes are for PVE , get them out. And then FInALLY get out the Tanker changes that have been held up forever. You can then work on pvp-focused changes for masterminds next or later.

[THEDarkTyger]

2 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

Yup I say go ahead with these changes they've been called for by PvE Masterminds for a bloody long time

Understatement of the year. Like, since day 1 of CoV.