CoH must have sucked

[oxmox]

16 hours ago, drdread said:

 

Actually, I meant was well before you got the Vahzilok wasting disease storyline. If you chose a mutant origin, your contact for missions 1-5 gave you a Vahzilok quest line. Zombies do toxic damage, Reapers and Mortificators do negative damage. Most tanks didn't get resistance or defenses to that until about level 8.

Oh no no, toxic damage is the newfangled easy mode vahz. A bunch of defensive sets give some toxic resist pretty early on. Back in the early days toxic damage didn't exist; vahz just did pure, unresistable damage. Neg energy from the morts and eidolons may as well have been pure too since most sets don't have any resist vs that early on.

[Haijinx]

On 12/7/2019 at 4:47 PM, Abraxus said:

It didn't suck, because we didn't have the comparison that we have today.  It just was, what it was.  

This is true.

 

We used to think 8 tracks were awesome!

 

 

[Apparition]

53 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

This is true.

 

We used to think 8 tracks were awesome!

 

 

 

Used to? 

[EmmySky]

53 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

This is true.

 

We used to think 8 tracks were awesome!

 

 

Ok.  I have two satchel of 8 tracks that are awesome!  I just need a way to convert them to digital now.  ☺

[Chelsea Rorec]

I miss fearing for my life in the hollows with no travel power until level 14.

 

[Charistoph]

11 hours ago, srmalloy said:

It was a Science origin that got you sent out after Vahzilok -- Jonathan St. John Smythe in the S.E.R.A.P.H. office in City Hall, your first mission being 'Talk to Iris Parker about the zombie attacks', and he would forward you to Henry Peter Wong. The Mutation contact would send you up against Council/5th Column. I gave up playing Science origin characters after getting bitten by that a couple times.

Science always sent you after Vahz.  It varied for Mutants depending on your starting contact and what seemed to be a random dice roll (story arcs weren't really a thing in Atlas Park or Galaxy City for a while).  The only real "mutant" groups are the Lost (technically would be Science, but they are attributed to mutant) and the Outcasts, and you don't hit those guys for a while.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Id retitle this, most players sucked and not feel unkind saying such about this threads OP considering his title choice.

 

Many of those that jumped ship for champions when it launched expressed the kind of attitude the OP displays here. Using snide insults like city of sidekicks, and city of cool downs as ways to attack the game as inherently flawed.

 

My first character was a elec/fire blaster and imo those who hated cool downs should of started as blasters, you usually had more attacks then you could chain together by the time you could get a proper travel power. hasten was very popular for so many then because it let them feel more active in fights. It also made them burn blue so fast they then complained about needing to take a knee after every fight.

 

From what I saw when i played both champions now and then when taking a breather from coh, the anti coh group there basically couldnt stand not having buttons to hit, and hence why they loved that game more because virtually everything there is spammable. My toons there rarely took more then 3 attack powers because that was about all you needed to be powerful in a fight, and left plenty for sustaining and mitigation.

 

Now I love me temp powers, more for how they let us expand and fill out rp concepts then anything else here. My batman types collect all the grenade powers and throwing devices etc.

 

But no at launch, during year one, even during the dark days after ED before the coming of IO sets the game had no real competition in the MMO scene because it was the best comic hero mmo, and one of the better comic hero games in general on the market.

 

I dont really know why people expect to feel like gods at lvl 1 in any mmo. Yes we started out as sidekick street soldier types, but if you felt like a sidekick by lvl 40 that was a you issue not a game issue.

[Marine X]

7 hours ago, oxmox said:

vahz just did pure, unresistable damage

Yes, and this led to a lot of Teams being formed so Players could clear the missions and a lot of Team wipes that really weren't entirely the Teams fault. They were about the Most Difficult thing, in relation to level you had to Face them, that CoH ever offered. ( Except maybe Rularu Overseers ). I learned a lot about Tanking and Survival Mode on those Teams, and even though it was unpleasant at times, I wouldn't trade it for anything. Vahzilok were the toughest Villains I had ever faced and it was very exciting when we finally finished those missions.

[Xeres]

Well like others said this game released in 2003.  The MMO landscape was very, very different and this game was challenging to level but not so much more than other games I had played up to that point.  I still remember one of the the first KR missions was to kill 10 COT.  I'd say you'd get this mission about level 6 or so.  They were on rooftops at night and you didn't have a travel power yet to up the fire escape you went.  Then when you reached the top they were orange (if you were lucky) red or purple.

[Coyote]

Heh, who didn't enjoy the "kill CoT" missions in Perez Park? The tense excitement of trying to pick off outside straggles from large forest meadow groups while backing up in narrow forest pathways? Trying not to back up into a +3 spawn of the Lost or Vahz?

[Arc-Mage]

On 12/6/2019 at 6:06 PM, DougGraves said:

I have been soloing a bit lately and noticed how I use my bonus powers like black wand into my 20's.  I cannot remember what it was like playing with just brawl and your powerset attacks but it must have been painfully slow.

 

I am generally opposed to making things easier, but I would not go back to playing without those extra attacks at lower levels.

It was a slog at times. It was made even more interesting when they introduced debt to the mix. However, it was all new and fun so getting killed a lot didn't mean much. It was part of the game.

[Abraxus]

6 minutes ago, Arc-Mage said:

It was a slog at times. It was made even more interesting when they introduced debt to the mix. However, it was all new and fun so getting killed a lot didn't mean much. It was part of the game.

Yup!  Now, as it was then, when I am playing a Blaster, if I'm not dying, I'm not doing my job!  If I can't do enough damage to gain the notice of baddies who want to end my existence (even those at +4), then I gotta rethink my build plan! 😎

[biostem]

8 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

From what I saw when i played both champions now and then when taking a breather from coh, the anti coh group there basically couldnt stand not having buttons to hit, and hence why they loved that game more because virtually everything there is spammable. My toons there rarely took more then 3 attack powers because that was about all you needed to be powerful in a fight, and left plenty for sustaining and mitigation.

It's both a blessing and a curse that you could basically gain a few levels in CO, then respec and almost completely ditch the lower-tier attacks for better ones, (just incorporate a bit of energy management, and you could spam gigabolts all day, for instance).  It actually took me a little to get back into the mentality of having to create an attack chain and take into consideration whether I should "waste" excess DPS in order to finish off an enemy with only a sliver of health left, upon finding Homecoming.

Edited December 12, 2019 by biostem

[Outrider_01]

2 hours ago, Abraxus said:

Yup!  Now, as it was then, when I am playing a Blaster, if I'm not dying, I'm not doing my job!  If I can't do enough damage to gain the notice of baddies who want to end my existence (even those at +4), then I gotta rethink my build plan! 😎

Exactly what a blaster is.  Kick ass, take names, get smacked around, and taste the floor.  When the tank is lifting weights, the defender diagnosing based on "vague opinions" on the internet, the controller is posing for social media with the locked down baddies until they click "like" and the scrapper is posing for a selfie with those flashy crits....they are all congratulating each other on a job well done on. 

 

Meanwhile the blaster is waking up to their favorite nurse, getting up and putting on their best battle uniform of tighty whities or string bikinis, strapping the gas tank to their back and wearing a claymore mine for a necklace, while giving a smirk to the bad guy with a finger on the detonator.  Someone is going down, them or a blaster, hopefully them so the blaster can take out all his friends then face plant at the end of the battle in exhaustion.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Outrider_01

[Christopher Robin]

On 12/7/2019 at 2:47 AM, parabola said:

It's funny really. I look back fondly at the old low level hollows and perez park experiences. It gave the hazard zones a real sense of danger, living up to their name. That sense of achievement at having simply managed to arrive at a mission was great. My hatred of igneous burns undimmed to this day!

Oook Ook!

"Oh no... RUN!!!!"

 

smash SMASH SMASH nuuuuuuoooo SMASH BANG POW SMASH

"OWWWwwww Whyyyyy!"

 

SMASH SMASH B-B-B-BASH BASH CRASH!!!!

"So!

Many!

Boulders!

waaaaahhhh

aaaaand team wipe!"

...

...

SMASH!

 

FU Igneous!

 

...hey guys I think I'm out of range, Imma use a wakie...

NO WAIT one of them is coming back!

Oook!

waaaaaaaaaaaah!

---------------------------

Something like that?

I do concur though that just making it to a mission in Eastgate Heights in one piece was cause for celebration.

A good gulch runner was a real asset for any team. Put that in your outgoing LFT note and you were sure to get an invite.

Plus it made us appreciate the Taxibots.

 

 

 

 

 

[THEDarkTyger]

On 12/10/2019 at 10:26 PM, biostem said:

As a blaster, for instance, you'll have at least 3 "active" powers to use by level 2.  Now, if you spam something like your immob over and over, you'll quickly run out of end and you'll be sucking wind for  awhile.  If you pace yourself, and make sure to detoggle powers like sprint, you'd fair much better, even that early on...

Yes, but only 3 active powers has you waiting for recharges. Just not as long as, say, a scrapper with only 1.

[Call Me Awesome]

How about the level 1 races?  Roll a new level 1 (pre vet awards) and run from Atlas to the courtyard in Portal Corporation Perigrine Island.  Your only travel power was Sprint and the typical route was AP-Steel-Talos-PI Ferry.  If ANYTHING spotted you then you were off to the Hospital and disqualified.  If you could do that then avoiding aggro in the Hollows was cake.

[siolfir]

7 minutes ago, Call Me Awesome said:

How about the level 1 races?  Roll a new level 1 (pre vet awards) and run from Atlas to the courtyard in Portal Corporation Perigrine Island.  Your only travel power was Sprint and the typical route was AP-Steel-Talos-PI Ferry.  If ANYTHING spotted you then you were off to the Hospital and disqualified.  If you could do that then avoiding aggro in the Hollows was cake.

Those are much easier now with Stalkers available at level 1 blueside and no level minimum on the Rikti War Zone.

[Call Me Awesome]

25 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Those are much easier now with Stalkers available at level 1 blueside and no level minimum on the Rikti War Zone.

That's the point, they were extremely difficult back then.  No Kelds were allowed either.

[siolfir]

1 minute ago, Call Me Awesome said:

That's the point, they were extremely difficult back then.  No Kelds were allowed either.

They were slower, but I still wouldn't say extremely difficult. The few I was in set the rules as level 1 without using travel powers (Khelds were allowed but couldn't use them without being disqualified) and had spotters to make sure people weren't being teleported with Recall Friend.

[VanCorp]

On 12/6/2019 at 7:06 PM, DougGraves said:

I have been soloing a bit lately and noticed how I use my bonus powers like black wand into my 20's.  I cannot remember what it was like playing with just brawl and your powerset attacks but it must have been painfully slow.

 

I am generally opposed to making things easier, but I would not go back to playing without those extra attacks at lower levels.

City of Heroes was actually a little faster than leveling in a lot of other MMOs during that era.

But keep in mind, that was 7-15 years ago. The gaming industry has changed in that time, and gamers' tastes and expectations have changed in that time. There's a reason the P2W Vendor in Homecoming sells free XP-boosters, nowadays.

[Charistoph]

15 hours ago, VanCorp said:

City of Heroes was actually a little faster than leveling in a lot of other MMOs during that era.

But keep in mind, that was 7-15 years ago. The gaming industry has changed in that time, and gamers' tastes and expectations have changed in that time. There's a reason the P2W Vendor in Homecoming sells free XP-boosters, nowadays.

It's not that gamers' expectations changed, new gamers came in to the scene and they were loud and noisy (or maybe just the old ones were fatigued).  The Souls genre is a demonstration that not all the perceptions of those expectations are completely real.  Heck, Pantheon is banking on a group of people that appreciated the challenging aspects of Everquest.

Still, all in all, it's interesting that CoX went with mostly just providing more powers and changing access time rather than going the Legion route of being able to slaughter hordes solo in seconds.  But CoX didn't last to that same amount of time, did it?

[Sovera]

On 12/11/2019 at 4:05 AM, Mr. Wallet said:

I played from launch and I cancelled my subscription and stopped playing around issue 20. The only reason was because they kept spoon-feeding an easier and easier game and it was getting harder and harder to really appreciate the content.

 

Endurance reduction TOs go completely out the window if you get Stamina at level 2. I took Fitness on maybe 20% of my characters before level 30 because I either used my attacks judiciously or I actually slotted endurance reduction where I needed it. I felt smart when I could have more tools (powers) at my disposal and use them well, rather than just take Hasten to spam things and then complain that Fitness was "required" because of the problem that Hasten created.

 

Giving everyone Fitness broke a few things, mostly by not making Rest a penalty for playing badly but also by eliminating some of the early-game jump height puzzles that made you want to work for that travel power. Stamina made -recovery attacks and debuffs stop working as effectively as they're supposed to; they should have reduced endurance costs and buffs across the board instead (even save players 2 extra enhancement slots), but I guess that would have been too much work.

 

I'm so so so so so so x100 glad you're not in charge of things. Because if you want to play without travel powers and not taking attacks you can. It is a choice you can exert. But, like WoW players who hate flying and lobby for flying not to be included in the game because it makes everything too easy, I bet you don't, like they immediately pick flight when it's available and don't go around in ground mounts to exert their beliefs.

 

I started in issue 6 as well and City of Cooldowns was a well deserved named. Endurance running out every two fights added... what? Complexity? Surely not. Boredom and slowness? Yes. Having to reserve five powers pre level 20 to take Stamina and a travel power added.. what? Complexity? Surely not. Boredom, slowness. Oh look, we had two attacks who recharge super slow and a third or fourth one would be great, but no, can't, because otherwise I'm pushing Stamina or my travel power past 14/20.

 

Eventually people figured out (or at least I did) about using the dual build system for a pre level 20 build where we ignored taking the pre-requisites for Stamina and then at 20 change build because we only had a few respecs and had to earn them since they weren't given for free.

 

This love for grind and boredom and slowness is 100% nostalgia with the gloss bad memories get. We can all laugh it up now of being sent to the Hollows pre-level 14 and travel on frigging foot to the other side of the map while dodging purple mobs, but lets not pretend we were having fun at the time. I can laugh about it now, but I'm not going to say it was a good experience at the time. Playing without Stamina was just about impossible and no amount of endurance reduction slotting made it bearable. Who thinks that chipping at mobs with brawl was good fun? Because that's how so many so many fights ended up being when we ran out of blue and pressed the button and watched it go red and we waited, and waited, and waited, and brawl would recharge and we'd stop queuing the attack and use brawl again, while STILL waiting for endurance to return.

 

Good god, yes, it makes for some good shit talking now 15 years later, but was it FUN at the time? It sure wasn't.

[Tahliah]

On 12/11/2019 at 3:15 PM, biostem said:

It actually took me a little to get back into the mentality of having to create an attack chain and take into consideration whether I should "waste" excess DPS in order to finish off an enemy with only a sliver of health left, upon finding Homecoming.

OMG, I thought I was the only one! When soloing, I will literally just stand there for the few seconds it takes Ice Bolt to recharge rather than "waste" Ice Blast (or God forbid, Bitter Ice Blast) on a nearly dead foe.  I'll even silently berate myself for using a high dps power "accidentally" (i.e. my autopilot click the attack chain mode is on).  On teams, I'll go ahead and "waste" the unneeded DPS for efficiency's sake, but when I'm alone, it just seems . . . wasteful.  I don't recall thinking about that back on live, but who knows, I may have.  I seem to have forgotten so much while simultaneously remembering more than I thought I had. 

[Mr. Wallet]

13 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

I'm so so so so so so x100 glad you're not in charge of things. Because if you want to play without travel powers and not taking attacks you can. It is a choice you can exert. But, like WoW players who hate flying and lobby for flying not to be included in the game because it makes everything too easy, I bet you don't, like they immediately pick flight when it's available and don't go around in ground mounts to exert their beliefs.

 

...

 

This love for grind and boredom and slowness is 100% nostalgia with the gloss bad memories get.

 

No, again, you can't just go play your own game the old way, unless you never want to team with anybody until 14, or just grind Death From Below to 14 absolutely every time you roll a character. I mostly played controllers, tankers, and defenders, so soloing was boring as hell at those levels. I already tried to pre-empt this point about the "you don't have to do it personally" sentiment in my first post. In a lot of cases you absolutely do have to do it personally, because this is a multiplayer game. When everybody had to do it the old way, you could find pick-up groups in King's Row or the Hollows or wherever. But when you are the only asshole who didn't even take Ninja Run by level 11, and you can't find any groups in south Steel Canyon using Broadcast or the searching for team feature because most people are not looking at those for teams on Homecoming, it is entirely reasonable for the team leader to kick you because you used the LFG channel to get picked up from 2 zones away and it's going to take you over 3 minutes just to get to the mission. That dynamic is broken. If you want to play with other people and not be disruptive, you must have Ninja Run or better when you want to stop running Death From Below. Please don't pretend that the old game is still around for me to enjoy and everyone gets it exactly how they want.

 

And to the 2nd point: you can't properly accuse someone of seeing things through a lens of nostalgia if they already literally told you that their reason for quitting, at the time, was because the game stopped being that way. Unless you're saying I played with inherent fitness for a month or two and then in November was blinded by my nostalgia for September?

 

Dodging purples made me feel special when I had a hero in the 20s with invisibility and recall friend. A lot of those now-useless powers like Team Teleport were utility pick-ups that were rarely used, but felt really good when they were. That was gameplay, in a very literal sense, because like all other gameplay, they were problems that could be dealt with to varying degrees of success and expediency. Maybe it's not the gameplay most people wanted, but it's gameplay I wanted, and gameplay that we had, and I loved it. It was fun as hell.

 

You're totally entitled to your opinion, and I've already made it clear that I know that lots of people thought Stamina was mandatory. I thought I also made it clear that I didn't feel that way because, like I said, I rarely took it. The offensive ATs that I didn't play as often, particularly blasters, did struggle with endurance, and I certainly took it on a few characters when it was clear I was going to have to slot End Reduction on a large number of powers to keep up. But it's not like the designers never tried to play their own game, and never saw how much endurance there was. They knew what game they were making, and I "got" it, even if most people didn't. If you're running out of endurance, just... don't use the less-efficient powers, as decided by the situation, until you recover some? Maybe I'm expecting too-hardcore gameplay out of an MMO. Or maybe I'm the only one who actually expects the game to have been designed for people to fight white minions more often than purple ones.

 

It's wonderful, and I mean truly moving, that I get to play any City of Heroes at all. But Issues 8 through 13 were absolutely the pinnacle for me, and that's not nostalgia; I was bitching my unpopular opinions about this on the forums all the way back in the day.