General Feedback: Page 5 Build 5

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

The nerfs will continue until morale improves.

I look forward to your reaction when the Super Strength changes once again arrive.🤣

[ROBOKiTTY]

Well, if you're going to adjust sleet, just keep in mind that cold domination began as a corruptor exclusive before being ported over to defenders, so corr numbers are currently being used.

[Tater Todd]

We have yet to see the "bigger picture" so unsurprisingly a lot of us are reacting because changes are being made to procs, psuedopets and powersets that have been around since the game began.  Being emotionally reactive is all we can do because from our perspective these changes seem random.  Personally, I'm still torn on how I feel about these proposed changes.

Procs builds are my thing so I understand the Ire about the proc and powerset adjustments but I also understand that Corrs, Controllers and MMs have been using the Defender version of certain powers since...forever.  (Sometimes, I feel like why should one even run a Corruptor with most sets.  It feels like the game is ever in the favor of a Defender over a Corr but that's an off topic discussion for another time.)

I imagine there's a lot on HC's plate and I understand you guys are volunteers that are probably dealing with life's many pitfalls & hurdles case and point; this area is on lock down due to multiple reported disease cases.  You've gained a lot of my trust with the Snipe and Dominator changes but other unresolved changes like the issues with Burn make me hesitant. 

 

I'd rather Procs, Dark Miasma and Tactical Arrow stay as is but I'm fine with changes if they are fair and balanced in the long run (plus fixing Trick Arrow is an added bonus.).

Edited March 15, 2020 by Tater Todd

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, ROBOKiTTY said:

Well, if you're going to adjust sleet, just keep in mind that cold domination began as a corruptor exclusive before being ported over to defenders, so corr numbers are currently being used.

The detailed info for Sleet is showing -30% res for Corruptors, unlike the 22.5% non-pseudopet -res powers have. It looks like the pet is using Defender numbers for everyone.

[siolfir]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

The detailed info for Sleet is showing -30% res for Corruptors, unlike the 22.5% non-pseudopet -res powers have. It looks like the pet is using Defender numbers for everyone.

No, it is not using Defender numbers. As I said before, and repeated by @ROBOKiTTY above: Sleet was created as a Corruptor only set. The Defender version is using Corruptor numbers and needs to be adjusted upwards for Defenders - to match Freezing Rain in Storm Summoning, if you're going to look for comparisons.

Edited March 15, 2020 by siolfir

[Darkneblade]

Tbh I don't care what happens to tar patch since I was only using it for slows anyway. Sure I'm gonna spend even more time defeating enemies but thats it. It will be painful in pvp though that's for sure. As for twilight grasp not sure how to feel about this one, if heals going downwards can we atleast get increase in accuracy ? like 1.20x ? same as Transfusion?

[Super Homer]

3 hours ago, siolfir said:

No, it is not using Defender numbers. As I said before, and repeated by @ROBOKiTTY above: Sleet was created as a Corruptor only set. The Defender version is using Corruptor numbers and needs to be adjusted upwards for Defenders - to match Freezing Rain in Storm Summoning, if you're going to look for comparisons.

I always thought it was damned obvious that Sleet was a quick copy and paste from Tar Patch. There was a LOT of rushed copy and paste when CoV came out. I dont know others, though, but I feel tar patch is still extremely powerful at its reduced level, and it was always weird that it was as strong on a mastermind as it was on a defender.

 

 

2 hours ago, Darkneblade said:

if heals going downwards can we atleast get increase in accuracy ? like 1.20x ? same as Transfusion?

As much as I agree with the reduction in healing, I also think the accuracy should go up! Hell I would take a further healing reduction in exchange for more accuracy! Make it auto-hit and reduce it to Emp levels, I just hate missing when its a live-or-die moment!

[Troo]

15 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Is there a general "level" you are aiming at balancing sets to @Captain Powerhouse? A good deal of confusion may be cleared up with that in mind instead of vague "this will be touched" messages. 

Slipping power changes in as bug fixes with little to no explanation is a bit lame.

 

-Regen, -DMG, -To-Hit, Team Heal, -SPD, -Jump, -Fly, -Res(All) = "okay what is changing? is it easy to understand?"

 

[Kanil]

15 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Is there a general "level" you are aiming at balancing sets to @Captain Powerhouse? A good deal of confusion may be cleared up with that in mind instead of vague "this will be touched" messages. 

 

yeah, i'm wondering this as well because it directly contributes to this feeling here:

 

15 hours ago, Internaut said:

I feel like you justify a lot of unpopular and arguably unnecessary changes that you make by saying "it was supposed to be fixed a long time ago/before shut down, but never was" and they frequently end up over/under-tuned, buggy, or outright broken. Like the burn change for example. It often feels arbitrary (or for some reason geared against farming) and I can't help but find myself frequently wondering why you're not focusing on more impactful and desired changes. 

 

I'm sure there's more to it, including my own confirmation bias, but after almost a year thats the impression that myself and many of the people I talk to in-game have.

 

it'd be good to know what the baseline is considered as to be able to maybe clear that up a bit. it'll probably come up much more in the next page if TW is gonna get slapped down real hard but at the moment the speculative nature of knowing that Significant Negative Changes Are Coming (to whatever) combined with that general vague feeling end up reinforcing that type of response to these kinda changes. the explanation of 'it's standardizing AT stuff/it's fixing bugs' ends up feeling more like an excuse to rally behind because of how vague it is, even if that's where the thought process begins and ends from the dev's side.

 

i guess in the end i ultimately don't understand the purpose of bringing stuff down in the context of the game being so casual to play in already and that being a really large part of what the appeal of the game is at a mechanical level. i totally grasp the power creep thing in the fear of buffing powersets in the scope of producing something like tac arrow again but the other direction is really baffling. what's the appeal to the, uh, "Pro Nerf Rhetoric" for folks? what part about it makes the game more fun?

 

anyways to sum it up: give battle axe hurl

[csr]

Actual feedback...

 

I tried the MM Dark changes on a level 31 Ninja/Dark build I transferred over.  No Dark Servant and running on mostly L25 Common IOs.  I started the Chaos Unbound arc from Vivacious Verandi.  I ran one mission at base difficulty then bumped to +1x3.  Family, Freaks and Devoured Earth at the beginning of the arc.  I didn't run into any new problems due to the changes.  My Twilight's Grasp was slotted with 2 Heals and was doing about 60% of the Genin's health, 40% of the Jounin's and mine.  So it didn't seem to make much difference.  Missing or getting mezzed remained the primary issue with healing, not the strength of the heal.  I lost one Genin and one Jounin in all that time and the latter may have been saved by a stronger heal, but probably not.  Logs suggest about a 5% drop in DPS due to the Tar Patch change (Ninja DPS is always disappointing to me, so this just exacerbated it a bit).

 

Next I switched to another transferred toon.  This one a L38 Dark/Dark Controller running a few sets, partial sets and special IOs with Common IOs for the rest.  I ran Gordon Stacy's Revenant Hero Project arc at 0x1 with bosses.  The damage output of this toon isn't great, so I didn't up the difficulty.  She rarely needed her heal, nor the Dark Servant's.  The logs say about a 6% DPS loss to the Tar Patch - right about what you'd expect with 100% up time, which with her DPS vs recharge is pretty much what I expect.  The DS had no heal slotting and was healing for about 15% of my health.  TG was doing about 35% of my health (close to 40% of my Umbral Beast's) at 95.6% enhancement.  With all the control and -ToHit I'd have to push the difficulty way beyond what her DPS makes playable to get her in trouble enough to worry about the heal decrease.  So... she's not a very useful test toon and I cut the session short.

Edited March 15, 2020 by csr

[ROBOKiTTY]

7 hours ago, Vanden said:

The detailed info for Sleet is showing -30% res for Corruptors, unlike the 22.5% non-pseudopet -res powers have. It looks like the pet is using Defender numbers for everyone.

 

1 hour ago, Super Homer said:

I always thought it was damned obvious that Sleet was a quick copy and paste from Tar Patch. There was a LOT of rushed copy and paste when CoV came out. I dont know others, though, but I feel tar patch is still extremely powerful at its reduced level, and it was always weird that it was as strong on a mastermind as it was on a defender.

No, sleet was a copy of freezing rain, which does -35% res on defenders and -30% on the rest. The non-defender version was used for corruptor sleet, but when cold was ported to defenders, the number was left untouched. They did however adjust heat loss (a pseudopet), so it does -24% on secondary ATs and -30% res on defenders.

 

Freezing rain and heat loss are examples of tailor-made versions of the same powers that do not slavishly follow AT mods. Not every power has to be a clone of each other.

 

Poison started out as a mastermind exclusive. Envenom does -30% res on ATs with it as a secondary and -40% res on defenders. This does follow AT mods.

 

What cold, storm, and poison have in common is a relative lack of personal protection, e.g. a self-heal or sonic's mez-protection bubble (although sonic severely underperforms right now). It seems like a clear enough trade-off.

Edited March 15, 2020 by ROBOKiTTY

[macskull]

5 hours ago, Darkneblade said:

Tbh I don't care what happens to tar patch since I was only using it for slows anyway. Sure I'm gonna spend even more time defeating enemies but thats it. It will be painful in pvp though that's for sure. As for twilight grasp not sure how to feel about this one, if heals going downwards can we atleast get increase in accuracy ? like 1.20x ? same as Transfusion?

Tar Patch was already worthless in PvP so this nerf won't change anything.

[ScarySai]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

Slipping power changes in as bug fixes with little to no explanation is a bit lame.

This is probably my #1 complaint with how they've been handling nerfs. Seems kinda sneaky, I don't like it.

 

If you're going to nerf it, just say how and why, don't try to justify it as a bug fix when it's clearly not what you're doing.

 

Insight on what is considered the baseline is sorely needed, so far rationalizations for 'fixes' have been inconsistent (Dark Consumption) to borderline nonsensical (Taunt on gun drone, Rage, Procs on MM pets being named "Unintentional" when Castle flat out said it was WAI.)

Edited March 15, 2020 by ScarySai

[Not Horus]

5 hours ago, Darkneblade said:

Tbh I don't care what happens to tar patch since I was only using it for slows anyway. Sure I'm gonna spend even more time defeating enemies but thats it. 

This is the most bizarre take

[GM Tock]

Okay, I've bifurcated most posts discussing Titan Weapons off this thread.  (Don't worry, they're intact for continued discussion.)

 While this is a General Feedback post, please keep discussion focused on the release itself.

[warlyx]

Quote

A behind-the-scenes change to the way Knockback works has been implemented

• Assuming all is well, there should be no perceivable change to any existing Knockback powers - please let us know if anything seems off!

oh pleaseeeee let me convert all the KB to KD with a p2w power or something 🙂

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, warlyx said:

oh pleaseeeee let me convert all the KB to KD with a p2w power or something 🙂

My guess is there will be extra damage from extra KB. Maybe implementing something similar to damage you get from falling, the harder you're knocked back to the earth, the harder damage you take.

 

But that's just a Hail Mary guess

[ABlueThingy]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

My guess is there will be extra damage from extra KB. Maybe implementing something similar to damage you get from falling, the harder you're knocked back to the earth, the harder damage you take.

 

But that's just a Hail Mary guess

I remember a rumor of "Vectored Knockback"

 

No idea what that means.  But I hope it means the Devs have more control over the arc/direction.  Knock "in" powers and what not.

[warlyx]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

My guess is there will be extra damage from extra KB. Maybe implementing something similar to damage you get from falling, the harder you're knocked back to the earth, the harder damage you take.

 

But that's just a Hail Mary guess

yeah probably , still think something needs to change , p2w power , or 1 global slot , because being forced to waste 1 slot on KB/KD not getting 6th set bonuses , still feels unfair 😞

Edited March 15, 2020 by warlyx

[Coyote]

20 hours ago, Not Horus said:

Unless that's the historical behavior of the nerfs that have happen. Which it is.

 

Hm. Dark Miasma/Affinity is being nerfed into the ground because a couple of powers now use the appropriate AT modifiers?
I recall Fear powers being useless because mobs RAN AWAY when you used them. Toggle powers didn't remain on the body when the anchor died. Twilight Grasp's heal didn't work if the mob died during the animation of the power. And I think it had a longer animation time, too.

Dark Servant had its own problems.

 

Oh, and Regen was nerfed ENOUGH TIMES that it has its own nerf meme, because it regenerated from the first few nerfs :p. So clearly the devs, now or in the past, don't automatically nerf things into the ground.

 

Seriously, let the Devs balance the game. Now, if you wish to argue that a nerf to a powerset makes that powerset underperforming, that is a very reasonable argument to make. It's helped by numbers, discussions of what the set can do, and so on. But blanket comments about how nerfs are always used to destroy powersets are unreasonable.

[oedipus_tex]

It's actually really unclear what the correct numbers for Sleet and Freezing Rain "should" be. 

 

Freezing Rain is 35% on Defenders and 30% on Controllers. Sleet was cloned from the Controller version of Freezing Rain when Cold Domination was released for Corruptors. Then when it was back-ported to Defenders the numbers weren't adjusted.

 

Thing is, 30% wasn't 75% of 35 to begin with. 75% of 35 is 26.25%. The fact that it is currently 30% is an oddity in part because most sets that used psuedo pets werent adjusted at all. Storm was adjusted but they used the wrong number. 😄 

[Apparition]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

It's actually really unclear what the correct numbers for Sleet and Freezing Rain "should" be. 

 

Freezing Rain is 35% on Defenders and 30% on Controllers. Sleet was cloned from the Controller version of Freezing Rain when Cold Domination was released for Corruptors. Then when it was back-ported to Defenders the numbers weren't adjusted.

 

Thing is, 30% wasn't 75% of 35 to begin with. 75% of 35 is 26.25%. The fact that it is currently 30% is an oddity in part because most sets that used psuedo pets werent adjusted at all. Storm was adjusted but they used the wrong number. 😄 

 

So there we have it.  Bump Defenders' Sleet to 35%, nerf Controllers/Corruptors/MMs Sleet and Freezing Rain to 26.25%. :p

[Bopper]

29 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

So there we have it.  Bump Defenders' Sleet to 35%, nerf Controllers/Corruptors/MMs Sleet and Freezing Rain to 26.25%. 😛

Given that patches can stack, would -30% and -22.5% be more fitting (balanced) than -35% and 26.25%? I dont have an opinion on that either way, but a genuine question for those who may actually have experience with Sleet/FR/etc.

[oedipus_tex]

Sleet and Freezing Rain have operated that way as long as I can remember, so its not an urgent thing. However, what the developers described earlier in this thread sounds like a more streamlined way to implement effects that previously relied on a psuedo-pet. From the way they described it, it might be difficult to recreate the 35/30 numbers, so I wouldn't be shocked if it becomes 35/26.25. 26.25 is where the math would land you if you were using a standardized formula. 

[Myrmidon]

Everything is going to be ok.