The Great Tanker Disappearance

[00Troy00]

I played from i3 until the last 6-8 months before Shutdown. I remember tanks being MUCH more plentiful on live than what I've observed since finding my way to Homecoming. Why is that? Did they get nerfed all yo hell or something? Has the tankers role changed somehow?

[Rathulfr]

Brutes.  That's the short answer.  Once you could create Brutes on blue side, the handwriting was on the wall for tankers.  Why play a character that can survive anything but deal no damage, when you can play one that deals lots of damage and can survive almost anything?

 

Combine that with the proliferation of power sets to other ATs to make them more survivable, there's less need for a team member who specializes in aggro management without contributing to overall DPS (that would be the tanker).  Add IO sets and Incarnates, and there's no reason to herd/taunt/finesse mobs any more.  It's The Age of the Steamroller: tankers need to not apply.

 

I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing.  It's just a thing.  And it's just my opinion, which is worth as much or as little as anyone else's.

 

[Bopper]

Quite the opposite, really. Tankers recently received a significant damage and AoE buff. Not sure why you're not seeing tankers around, but they're out there.

[eiynp]

the meta hasn't caught up to the HC changes, basically; tanks are pretty good damage dealers now, especially since they don't have to invest as much in building out their defensive stuff

[Parabola]

I've found myself going the other way. Back on live I'd abandoned tanks and scrappers in favour of brutes but now I'm rolling mainly tanks and scrappers again.

 

With the recent buffs tanks do decent damage and are still the best answer when a team needs a tough guy up front. And the scrapper ato's and the way scrappers react to +dam in general just makes them the better choice for damage dealing with a lot of powerset combinations. The only thing that makes me think brute at the moment is armor sets where they get a taunt aura that scrappers don't. Oh and farming.

[Hyperstrike]

God is often invoked and seldom seen

My sig explains the rest.

[tidge]

Even before the allowance of ATs to play either side, Scrappers were filling many of the roles of Tankers blue-side. With the ability of many ATs to now 'soft cap' defenses through IO set bonuses, the ATs that can AOE large spawns (before an individual enemy makes enough attacks to force a streakbreaker), the dedicated role of a Tanker is diminished. True Tanking requires looking out for all the members of your team and it isn't just moving around while not taking damage. It's also more than just taking the alpha strike. You have to be watching the bars of your team and quickly adjust to targeting *their* targets. It is a lot of work, and ideally the only way the team can recognize the Tank is doing a good job is because they hear the taunt effect and realize they aren't being held/hit by enemy attacks. A balance has to be struck between following and leading. Nobody wants to wait for a tank to gather aggro anymore than they want to wait for a Stalker to AS, or a Blaster to Snipe the bosses. Nobody wants to see a Tank run off and grab aggro of 16 random enemies while leaving certain enemies alone.

 

Tanks can be fun to play, but the general trend of the game has been moving away from them. The recent Homecoming improvements to damage, arcs, and AoE has offset some of it, as it is easier to get aggo by attacking, and the speed of 'arresting' enemies is increased. Prior to this change, the only real 'improvement' to tankers I can recall was removing the 'rooted' requirement for sets like Invulnerability. I think fixing the 'DE Swarm Aggro/Fear' mechanic was a good thing (even if it was seen as a nerf to Fire Tanks), and I understand the change to the Aggro cap (even if it removed a lot of the fun of playing a solo Tank).

[Infinitum]

6 hours ago, Bopper said:

Quite the opposite, really. Tankers recently received a significant damage and AoE buff. Not sure why you're not seeing tankers around, but they're out there.

I have 10 lvl 50s myself.

 

Only 3 brutes.

[Golden Azrael]

On 4/28/2020 at 6:43 AM, Rathulfr said:

Brutes.  That's the short answer.  Once you could create Brutes on blue side, the handwriting was on the wall for tankers.  Why play a character that can survive anything but deal no damage, when you can play one that deals lots of damage and can survive almost anything?

 

Combine that with the proliferation of power sets to other ATs to make them more survivable, there's less need for a team member who specializes in aggro management without contributing to overall DPS (that would be the tanker).  Add IO sets and Incarnates, and there's no reason to herd/taunt/finesse mobs any more.  It's The Age of the Steamroller: tankers need to not apply.

 

I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing.  It's just a thing.  And it's just my opinion, which is worth as much or as little as anyone else's.

 

That pretty much sums things up.

 

Despite the recent damage buff.

 

I'd still add a 'Might' builder bar that can give sustained damage bonus to the tanker.  Swap out BU and have a 'Might' toggle instead.

 

Then you'd find Tanks aplenty.

 

Tanks were eclipsed as soon as CoV become CoH.

 

I still think there is a place for tanks, just don't allow any brutes on your team.  Play with like minded players.  Construct your PuGs with care.

 

I have an Ice/Ice/Ice tank built for damage.  The recent patch was like a new dawn.  +4 x8 arachnos.  And it keeps on giving.

I have an SR/SJ tank.  Love it.  Alot of fun.

 

The two tankers I most wanted to do when Live 'tanked.'

 

My most damaging tank is my Shield/SS Brute.  Built for high resistance and capped+ positional def'.

 

A brute built like so is a tank in all but name.  Mere semantics.  You get a fury builder plus Rage.  What's not to like..?

 

Azrael.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Bill Z Bubba]

Or just accept that every AT is unnecessary and everything can be done with anything. Play what feels good to you, make it awesome, don't be an asshole and others will enjoy your company.

 

Scuse me while I go provide rooted feet to the face with my ma/stone brute. Or tear into an aggro caps worth of baddies with my sr/claws tank. Or just be gorram sexy as hell with the original claws/sr scrapper.

 

[ParagonKid]

I have not touched my Tanker since they removed Gauntlet.
I don't care what they said about "most cases" benefiting from the damage mod change; my tanker does less damage now.

Setting that betrayal aside, Tankers are over-specialized and have no flavor or compelling identity. They are worse Brutes with excess survivability which they are punished for.

[SwitchFade]

I always find these threads amusing and the people who show up declaring tanks are gone, I won't play my tank, tanks are worse than...

 

And in game it's always "this will be tough with no tank," "we need a tank," "so and so team of tank," and even the brutes are hesitant.

 

People, those of us posting here are the drastic minority. Playing at 50 is not the norm. Most players in game are in between 1-50, and a great many of them do not have optimized full io builds.

 

In most scenarios, with SO's and generic io's, a tank is much better than a brute from 5-40.

 

It's easy to substantiate claims of "tanks not needed," in meta. Heck, neither are controllers. Or blasters. Or, defenders. I. Facts, nothing is. Dial back to 35 on generic io's, thank God there's a tank around 

[GastlyGibus]

I can't say I agree with the claim that Tanks are rare. I see them quite frequently, and I enjoy them very much myself. 

 

I agree 100% with what SwitchFade said above. Sure, at level 50 with millions of INF and fully IO'd builds, any class can do most anything. But at level 10? 20? Suddenly having an AT that is bulky and doesn't need expensive IO's to survive is very appealing. I was just on a PuG the other day doing a Posi 1. All of us lowbies. No tank in sight. We ate the pavement often and had many trips to the hospital, because most of our AT's were squishy and we had no decent front line.

 

Tanks might not be as needed once you're all Incarnate'd out, but before then, having a strong, sturdy aggro holder can make or break a team. I play tankers frequently because, while Brutes can be just as good, the Tanker will always have just that little bit of extra bulk, and that can often make all the difference.

 

TL;DR Tankers are still around, and they're still good. They might not be as popular as "the good old days," but they're far from worthless. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by GastlyGibus
Tl;dr

[Infinitum]

13 hours ago, ParagonKid said:

I have not touched my Tanker since they removed Gauntlet.
I don't care what they said about "most cases" benefiting from the damage mod change; my tanker does less damage now.

Setting that betrayal aside, Tankers are over-specialized and have no flavor or compelling identity. They are worse Brutes with excess survivability which they are punished for.

Everything about this statement is incorrect.

 

I think what you are meaning is that they removed bruising in favor of an outright damage buff if i am not mistaken here.  They still have gauntlet though.

 

If you calculate the increased radius and Arcs, and the amount enemies you can hit with any AOE type, you are actually out damaging Brutes in a lot of cases.

 

If you build it correctly, you can outsurvive a brute, and also have similar damage output if you go musculature core and assault radial.

 

But doing less damage than before, theres just no way.

[ParagonKid]

Bruising is simply a component of Gauntlet that was present when the game shut down, which was now removed. The "Gauntlet" we have now isn't the same as far as I'm concerned. Arguing semantics accomplishes nothing except trying to antagonize.

Increased arc/AoE sizes means little to several powersets and even for those it does not, it mostly only applies to farming.

I don't care if I'm outdamaging Brutes in some edge cases more than I care that I do less damage than I used to and that my Tanker was undermined by an unwarranted nerf and unwanted change masquerading as something else.

"But doing less damage than before, theres just no way."
Don't try to gaslight me.

Edited May 4, 2020 by ParagonKid

[Bill Z Bubba]

Believing in things that aren't true is no way to go through life. Tanks got a substantial damage increase. My SR/Claws tank is now BARELY behind my near-identically built Claws/SR brute on ST damage and is ahead when in full aoe chain mode. Every other tank I've built since the recent changes, and every other tank I tested with after the changes had noticeable improvement.

 

This isn't gaslighting. It's math.

[GastlyGibus]

ParagonKid, I have no idea what you did to break your Tanker, but it seems pretty clear to me that it's something on your end. The gauntlet changes have given both my SR/Kat and Bio/Claws Tanker significant boosts in damage output, to the point where I don't even want to play a Scrapper or Brute anymore. Why would I, when my Tankers can do just as good damage wise and have far more survivability?

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, ParagonKid said:

Bruising is simply a component of Gauntlet that was present when the game shut down, which was now removed. The "Gauntlet" we have now isn't the same as far as I'm concerned. Arguing semantics accomplishes nothing except trying to antagonize.

Increased arc/AoE sizes means little to several powersets and even for those it does not, it mostly only applies to farming.

I don't care if I'm outdamaging Brutes in some edge cases more than I care that I do less damage than I used to and that my Tanker was undermined by an unwarranted nerf and unwanted change masquerading as something else.

"But doing less damage than before, theres just no way."
Don't try to gaslight me.

Hmm. Bruising was applied by the t1 attack, so....

 

Many tanks don't use t1...

 

Doing more damage isn't edge, it's normal play, as your gauntlet's aggro attaining capability is better than before and you'll have all the milkshakes in the yard on you...

 

Which means your bigger AoE will hit more stuff, for higher damage...

 

...which is proof that tanks are actually, in almost all situations, better and more potent than before, in the scenarios we have been discussing. That's not semantics.

 

But you did actually say "gauntlet is gone" and that is incorrect. Being that gauntlet and bruising are two very different things, the fact you said it is gone and discussed bruising may have been an error; however, correcting that error doesn't render the person who corrected it incorrect, especially if it was cogent, coherent, competent and compelling.

 

Say THAT twelve times, quickly =D

Edited May 4, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Coyote]

9 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

it was cogent, coherent, competent and compelling.

 

Nice. That's definitely a compelling argument. Coherent, too.

[VV]

Everyone hates on tanks, until you need a tank. I mean, look, my Grav/Storm/Fire Blastanktroller can "tank" almost anything, except, you know, the stuff where you really need massive armor and HP. On the other hand, my Fire^3 Tanker can mow stuff down fast. What I'm saying is that this fight over which ATs are "needed" is so old and haggard it is ridiculous. Play what you want and have fun.

 

That being said, Tanks really aren't disappearing. Check the Stats thread from March and you'll see that tanks are quite well represented. (Ignore that preview pic and click the link.)

And, I feel like the only one that kind of doesn't think Brutes are all that great. There have been so many missions where I'm playing my Tanker, and we have a brute or 3 along. When things get rough, they just seem to wilt. Of course, you expect that of a Blaster or other squishy, but if Brutes are so great, what the heck? Maybe I've just had more bad luck with Brute teammates than otherwise and the vast majority are great, but that is not what I have found. And, of course, I have seen some amazing brutes, but those are so few and far between. Same with playing my other ATs with Brutes, they tend to require more support than most. Nothing I've seen of them, other than those limited farms, has impressed me. I tried playing a couple, but was still unimpressed. I just don't see the use of them.

[Primantis]

1 hour ago, VV said:

 

And, I feel like the only one that kind of doesn't think Brutes are all that great. There have been so many missions where I'm playing my Tanker, and we have a brute or 3 along. When things get rough, they just seem to wilt. Of course, you expect that of a Blaster or other squishy, but if Brutes are so great, what the heck? Maybe I've just had more bad luck with Brute teammates than otherwise and the vast majority are great, but that is not what I have found. And, of course, I have seen some amazing brutes, but those are so few and far between. Same with playing my other ATs with Brutes, they tend to require more support than most. Nothing I've seen of them, other than those limited farms, has impressed me. I tried playing a couple, but was still unimpressed. I just don't see the use of them.

 

 

That's just it. When people say "Brutes make Tanks obsolete" they are generally referring to very niche situations.

 

End game Brutes, running meta secondaries, decked to the gills in IOs, incarnates, and a few juicy defenders tagging along. Until they reach that point there tends to be a noticeable gap in survivability.

 

 

 

[Seigmoraig]

On 5/4/2020 at 6:53 AM, ParagonKid said:

I don't care if I'm outdamaging Brutes in some edge cases more than I care that I do less damage than I used to and that my Tanker was undermined by an unwarranted nerf and unwanted change masquerading as something else.

"But doing less damage than before, theres just no way."
Don't try to gaslight me.

Bruising was a 20% resistable and unstackable -res debuff off the t1 attack, so single target. They just gave Tankers a flat out 15% damage increase across the board, that's not a nerf, that's a buff. You were never even getting the full 20% -res from the t1 attack unless you were hitting minions with it anyways. Combined with the aoe and max target changes, that's a massive buff. Just because you refuse to accept that those changes are actually buffs doesn't mean that it's actually not a buff.

I honestly think that you are gaslighting yourself here because there is no way that these changes can be viewed as a global nerf. Sure if you enjoyed soloing -1 missions and only spamming brawl and your t1 attack on the minions there it's probably a nerf but for the rest of us "normies" who don't enjoy spamming t1 attacks on minions there's no real argument that it's a nerf
 

[Zeraphia]

On 4/28/2020 at 12:54 AM, 00Troy00 said:

I played from i3 until the last 6-8 months before Shutdown. I remember tanks being MUCH more plentiful on live than what I've observed since finding my way to Homecoming. Why is that? Did they get nerfed all yo hell or something? Has the tankers role changed somehow?

I think in general melee damage has kind of gone out of flavor for general gameplay in groups, where often no Tanker is even "required" to meet extremely fast timeframes ("required" does not mean that I don't highly recommend at least one Tanker/Brute on a team). Defender buffs have just gotten so high now with Nature, Cold, etc. that most teams will hardly faceplant with those on a team, there is also the resurgence of Blasters with their T9 and high DPS output. There are also now several instances which Ranged damage is strictly favored over Melee damage to the point where it is *required* to complete a piece of content. If you're going by what you see in LFG, there is going to be an over-representation of fire farming brutes that will skew the numbers heavily. The Tanker's role hasn't shifted too much from what it has originally except that now it really has moved on to being new a contributing member of DPS and it can solo decently-extremely well.

 

Also, aggro control DOES help even streamrolling teams. Herding mobs together so that your group can aoe nuke a mob is the "new way" to tank and is highly rewarded for doing so. Yes, lots of groups can do without a Tanker now, but getting the bosses to not stray out of DPS' aoes is a highly appreciable time-saver.  

On 5/3/2020 at 7:33 PM, SwitchFade said:

I always find these threads amusing and the people who show up declaring tanks are gone, I won't play my tank, tanks are worse than...

 

And in game it's always "this will be tough with no tank," "we need a tank," "so and so team of tank," and even the brutes are hesitant.

 

People, those of us posting here are the drastic minority. Playing at 50 is not the norm. Most players in game are in between 1-50, and a great many of them do not have optimized full io builds.

 

In most scenarios, with SO's and generic io's, a tank is much better than a brute from 5-40.

 

It's easy to substantiate claims of "tanks not needed," in meta. Heck, neither are controllers. Or blasters. Or, defenders. I. Facts, nothing is. Dial back to 35 on generic io's, thank God there's a tank around 

This is semi-true, there are cases where however there are things *strictly* required by the game to complete a task (holds - LGTF, holds - Hami, holds - MoM Malaise section, Confuse/Holds/Stuns - Telepathists badge in TPN, etc.) though it isn't just one archetype or power that can suite those needs, the principle of the need for those archetypes though is still there. 

 

I still think that I actually see a fair few Tankers at level 50 these days, I won't claim that they're a dime-a-dozen, but they are not rare. Most teams usually have one or two Tankers on them, although, I've seen unfortunately Scrappers with party buffs and taking taunt just tanking all the AV's in game at the highest difficulty settings and the group still working this out, some may see that as making Tanks "obsolete" but I do not see it as such. I think every AT besides has a place on the team, some are going to be more rewarded more directly than others, it is what it is.

 

Now, the thing I am finding more, and more, is that Controllers of all ATs seem to be the "rarest" of the "regular" non-HEAT non-VEAT options.

[Blastit]

Individual AT strengths and weaknessess are a lot less pronounced on full teams, anyway, by virtue of just so much stuff going on. If you want to really feel the differences between ATs and sets you should form small teams.

[Sovera]

I'll be honest that if I am on a Scrapper and leveling I don't need a tank to baby sit me. I'll gladly take one, but I don't need it. But I'm all meta-ed out leveling with ATOs and throwing set IOs in as soon as they become available, nearly every melee attack will have a Kinetic Melee set, and of course the two +3% unique IOS will be slotted, and then to top it I abuse the base macro and replenish my inspirations between missions. So of *course* I don't particularly *need* a tank when I'll just eat one insp and run into a group with my agro aura nabbing enemies for the team's comfort. But this is not the common experience for the average player and 90% of the time we gleefuly accept a tank that will bundle up the enemies and stop them from go wandering off across the map to return later and shoot us on the back.

 

 

9 hours ago, VV said:

That being said, Tanks really aren't disappearing. Check the Stats thread from March and you'll see that tanks are quite well represented. (Ignore that preview pic and click the link.)

And, I feel like the only one that kind of doesn't think Brutes are all that great. There have been so many missions where I'm playing my Tanker, and we have a brute or 3 along. When things get rough, they just seem to wilt. Of course, you expect that of a Blaster or other squishy, but if Brutes are so great, what the heck? Maybe I've just had more bad luck with Brute teammates than otherwise and the vast majority are great, but that is not what I have found. And, of course, I have seen some amazing brutes, but those are so few and far between. Same with playing my other ATs with Brutes, they tend to require more support than most. Nothing I've seen of them, other than those limited farms, has impressed me. I tried playing a couple, but was still unimpressed. I just don't see the use of them.

 

You describe why I am not personally interested in Brutes. When people sing the praises of Brutes for being 'nearly as resilient as a Tanker' they forget to add the little asterisk and footnote 'If they have support'.

 

IF they have support, sure. Someone throwing shields on them, yeah. But if there isn't support then Brutes are slightly less damaging Scrappers with the same defense. Take the exact same slotting of a Scrapper and put it on a Brute and both will have the exact same numbers. Take the same slotting from a Brute and place it on a Tanker and the Tanker gets substantial defense and resistances increases (and lets not even go into the ATOs that buff damage on Scrappers and give 20%-ish more resistances to Tankers while they get... 10% regen and endurance discount? Fury bonus? k.).

 

That means a properly build Tanker will always be ready to go even if there is no thermal/sonic/ice shields on them while a Brute will go at it with their Scrapper defenses. Where Brutes shine is for niche content such as farming. Then they can devote their build to reaching 90% to fire resist and softcap fire defense. But a tanker can even reach 45% to melee/ranged/AoE on top of 90% resists, on top of nearly as much damage. Not as good, sure, but they are there to actually tanking and take hits (though never should a Tanker go in a and brag how they don't care about damage and their role is just to tank for the team. They can do both, and they should do both).