Split the VEAT branches into different ATs.

[Greycat]

So I ran another VEAT for a while. Hit 24, mid task force, and hit one of the things that has always irritated me with them.

 

"You are now level 24.  You must undergo a forced respec." This is where you choose your branch - bane/crab or widow/fort.

 

I have always, *always* been annoyed by this. Not just for the hard stop in a situation like I was in - I'm not respeccing and  holding everyone up mid-SF - but for the fact it feels like I've wasted 24 levels just not being what I want that character to be.

 

Can we *dump* this, and preferrably just have "Bane" (huntsmen following this branch) and "Crab," or "Widow" and "Fort," just be separate ATs? (Then we can work on the other irritants, like "get a better storyline" and "all the costuming requests.")

[Yomo Kimyata]

Wait, it halts you  in the middle of a mission?  In the middle of combat?  That's bad programming.

[Greycat]

You can continue the mission - it doesn't halt you like that - but where every other AT can just stop, pick up a new power (and at 24, it is a power selection, not slots or I'd be less irked) and keep going - and if they level a few more times, keep doing it - for a VEAT, it's a forced respec if you hit the trainer.

 

(And of course, being a respec it's not just "reselect powers and slots from level 1," but "put all your powers, temp powers, etc. in all your trays ignoring what you had where already.")

 

*And,* of course, if you prefer a Huntsman build over Bane (which I tend to,) it means instead of picking a power and going on, you're repicking from level 1, reslotting, resetting all your enhancements and powers... to get right back to where you were.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Greycat

[WanderingAries]

That's just a TF right? So it simply disables powers that you would have at the designated levels. So in essence it's as if you're that lower level (IE: You didn't know Anything about those powers). That's kind of the point of those. Gain the mish experience/bonus'/etc by not being overpowered (by a lot).

 

Now I probably haven't had these Exact circumstances, but are you saying that it actually brings up the "choose your path" menu? That I can see getting annoying, but shouldn't take that long to do. Unless you're repeating that mission for reasons, then it'd be Really annoying.

[WanderingAries]

2 minutes ago, Greycat said:

You can continue the mission - it doesn't halt you like that - but where every other AT can just stop, pick up a new power (and at 24, it is a power selection, not slots or I'd be less irked) and keep going - and if they level a few more times, keep doing it - for a VEAT, it's a forced respec if you hit the trainer.

 

(And of course, being a respec it's not just "reselect powers and slots from level 1," but "put all your powers, temp powers, etc. in all your trays ignoring what you had where already.")

 

This sounds more like a need to tweak this mish than the AT itself (likely WAY harder).

[Greycat]

3 minutes ago, WanderingAries said:

That's just a TF right? So it simply disables powers that you would have at the designated levels. So in essence it's as if you're that lower level (IE: You didn't know Anything about those powers). That's kind of the point of those. Gain the mish experience/bonus'/etc by not being overpowered (by a lot).

 

Now I probably haven't had these Exact circumstances, but are you saying that it actually brings up the "choose your path" menu? That I can see getting annoying, but shouldn't take that long to do. Unless you're repeating that mission for reasons, then it'd be Really annoying.

You're misunderstanding.

 

Let's take - any non- VEAT AT. Doesn't matter if they're running missions, on an arc, or in a TF. They hit 24, head out, see a trainer, pick a power, maybe slot something they have handy, and keep going.

 

For a VEAT, it's hit the trainer and be told "You are respeccing." You can skip it, sure - and have no additional powers, and keep having no additional powers no matter how much you level, until you do that respec.

 

Edit:

It's not a mission. It's what happens as you level a VEAT. You're stuck when you go to get your level 24 power pick - you *must* respec to pick it or any further powers.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Greycat

[Yomo Kimyata]

I've never gotten a VEAT that high, and if it stops you in the middle of a mission, then that's bad marketing.  Otherwise, I guess that's the price of picking that AT?

[Troo]

[Troo]

1 minute ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

if it stops you in the middle of a mission, then that's bad marketing.

This does not stop anyone mid mission, unless someone leaves a mission to go level.

[MTeague]

As irritating as it is, this would play sixteen kinds of hell with players who already have a VEAT with build 1 as Widow and build 2 as Fortunata.

Do they have to give up one or the other permanently?

They couldn't be named the same thing, not if they're different AT's / Characters.

 

I think this is just something people are going to have to grin-and-bear it, and just not lvel up until the end of the mission / group / TF.

[Greycat]

Somehow I think I need to reexplain.

 

Let's take a team, it doesn't matter what they're doing - tf, missions, on an MSR, whatever. We have three level 22s - a - let's take blaster, a kheld for the hero EAT, and a VEAT.

They hit 23. They all run out and get slots in between missions. Yay.

They level. They hit 24. The blaster and Kheld pick up a new power and rush to join the team, because, well, new power, it's helpful. The VEAT now has a choice:

- Go to trainer. Completely respec powers because they have to choose a branch. Reslot enhancements (and why do they not "sell" like they used to?) Reset all their powers in their tray. Rejoin team.

- Ignore the level. They don't get any other powers, when they hit 25 they can't put in slots - because they have to respec. Stay with their level 24 powers for however long.

 

Other two hit 25, 26, this is a great team and they stick around to 30. They have their powers up to 30. The VEAT... has to respec to 24, readd, etc, etc. etc.

 

Yes, there are "costs" to ATs - if I'm running a blaster, by default I'm squishy but doing damage (barring IOing things out.) Kheld? I deal with Quantums. Mastermind? low personal damage, but pets. This, to me, goes beyond a "cost" and more to one of many annoying things about the AT.

 

By splitting the ATs into bane/crab or widow/fort from level 1, this is avoided all together. Yes, it  means "villains have twice as many EPic ATs." Which... I don't care. (It also has the side effect of neatly "fixing" the whole "if one build has a crab backpack, they all do.")

[Yomo Kimyata]

Oh.  Sounds like a limited problem then, and one that seems to be working as intended.  I'm sorry it held up your team play!

[Greycat]

9 minutes ago, MTeague said:

As irritating as it is, this would play sixteen kinds of hell with players who already have a VEAT with build 1 as Widow and build 2 as Fortunata.

Do they have to give up one or the other permanently?

They couldn't be named the same thing, not if they're different AT's / Characters.

 

I think this is just something people are going to have to grin-and-bear it, and just not lvel up until the end of the mission / group / TF.

The funny thing about it? This is one of the reasons I used dual builds on live, at least for the widows (and trying a dedicated bane/huntsman.) I didn't want to deal with this, or many of the other things I don't care for (like the sucktastic storyline) about VEATs, any more than I had to. I'm remaking one of each here because I like the *characters,* not the AT itself for the most part. There are just *so many things* about them that annoy me. (Granted, a chunk of them are lore and "could have done this with them" storyline and ... world things that pretty much just bug me.)

 

I seem to recall this kicking in *during respecs and dual builds* as well, actually, making *that* whole process longer. (Maybe it was just the dual build. It's been a while.)

 

Mind you, I like multiple builds. I advocate for people to use them. But in this case... eh?

[MTeague]

I hear you.  But if someone has an existing character that they already have, leveled up, dual builds, both builds slotted,  and they enjoy hopping back and forth under that character, with that character name....

 

spliting the specialities into different AT's means that one existing character has to become two separate characters in their roster.

And one of them has to be renamed.

Because you can't have two characters with the same name existing twice on server.

 

And you cant have build 1 and build 2 be completely different AT's, not unless HC devs have some magic shenanigans going on, and that's just an EXTREMELY slippery slope I DON'T want them going down.... Build 1 = Blaster?   Build 2 = Brute?   Hell no.   But if Crab and Bane spidder become different branches, and were allowed as different builds of the same character, how do you forbid other combos?

 

I just do not feel that 55 gallon drum of worms is worth opening for what's generally going to be a very rare occurance that happens a few times in the life of a VEAT.

[Myrmidon]

30 minutes ago, MTeague said:

As irritating as it is, this would play sixteen kinds of hell with players who already have a VEAT with build 1 as Widow and build 2 as Fortunata.

Do they have to give up one or the other permanently?

They couldn't be named the same thing, not if they're different AT's / Characters.

 

I think this is just something people are going to have to grin-and-bear it, and just not lvel up until the end of the mission / group / TF.

This. My Widow and Bane have both multiple builds available for use whenever I feel like switching. Being irritated by a change like this would be a huge understatement.

[Greycat]

15 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I just do not feel that 55 gallon drum of worms is worth opening for what's generally going to be a very rare occurance that happens a few times in the life of a VEAT.

The flip side of that being - this is a guaranteed occurrence in the life of every VEAT (assuming it's not dropped by level 23.)  Possibly a multiple-time occurrance if I'm remembering the respecs/multi build thing correctly. Versus... (and as someone who likes multiple builds, it pains me to say this) how many people actually have multi-branch multi-build VEATs?

 

I mean, for me, as mentioned, it's a *dis*incentive to roll more of them... and I'm a raging altoholic. How many others have said "I don't want to do that again?"

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, Greycat said:

The flip side of that being - this is a guaranteed occurrence in the life of every VEAT (assuming it's not dropped by level 23.)  Possibly a multiple-time occurrance if I'm remembering the respecs/multi build thing correctly. Versus... (and as someone who likes multiple builds, it pains me to say this) how many people actually have multi-branch multi-build VEATs?

 

I mean, for me, as mentioned, it's a *dis*incentive to roll more of them... and I'm a raging altoholic. How many others have said "I don't want to do that again?"

The problems this would bring up outweigh any benefit by a mile or more. Sorry but its a no from me.

[ImpousVileTerror]

Alternatively, what about allowing a new Level Up Option at Trainers for Villain Epic Archetypes?

 

When you hit Level 24, you get a choice of the regular

"Train and Respec" 

or

"Claim 1 Free Respec and Level Up as Huntsman/Blood Widow"

 

And once you tap that Respec, THEN you have to rebuild your character.  

I mean, I understand that the Arachnos Archetypes were pretty much jury-rigged from the get-go, so this might not be possible . . . but if it is; wouldn't that be preferable? 

[Six-Six]

I never saw this as an issue. I have 5 level 50 VEATs, on my 6th now. And I always look forward to the L24 Choosing of the Paths. 

Then again, maybe it's just me. Sometimes I hold off on seeing a trainer even when I have 2 or 3 levels up for picking a power or slots, whether I'm on a TF or just a regular mission.

[Zeraphia]

12 hours ago, Greycat said:

Somehow I think I need to reexplain.

 

Let's take a team, it doesn't matter what they're doing - tf, missions, on an MSR, whatever. We have three level 22s - a - let's take blaster, a kheld for the hero EAT, and a VEAT.

They hit 23. They all run out and get slots in between missions. Yay.

They level. They hit 24. The blaster and Kheld pick up a new power and rush to join the team, because, well, new power, it's helpful. The VEAT now has a choice:

- Go to trainer. Completely respec powers because they have to choose a branch. Reslot enhancements (and why do they not "sell" like they used to?) Reset all their powers in their tray. Rejoin team.

- Ignore the level. They don't get any other powers, when they hit 25 they can't put in slots - because they have to respec. Stay with their level 24 powers for however long.

 

Other two hit 25, 26, this is a great team and they stick around to 30. They have their powers up to 30. The VEAT... has to respec to 24, readd, etc, etc. etc.

 

Yes, there are "costs" to ATs - if I'm running a blaster, by default I'm squishy but doing damage (barring IOing things out.) Kheld? I deal with Quantums. Mastermind? low personal damage, but pets. This, to me, goes beyond a "cost" and more to one of many annoying things about the AT.

 

By splitting the ATs into bane/crab or widow/fort from level 1, this is avoided all together. Yes, it  means "villains have twice as many EPic ATs." Which... I don't care. (It also has the side effect of neatly "fixing" the whole "if one build has a crab backpack, they all do.")

Or perhaps now that you know it's level 24 when it happens, not just some "random" event, you can time it and not join a task force during it?

Edited June 30, 2020 by Zeraphia

[Omega-202]

12 hours ago, Greycat said:

The flip side of that being - this is a guaranteed occurrence in the life of every VEAT (assuming it's not dropped by level 23.) 

No its really not.  Have some self control and just hold off on leveling until you have a convenient time to do so.  

 

Generally, I find it more than a bit inconsiderate when people hold up TF runs in general to go level, especially with how quickly most low level TFs go.  Unless you're grabbing Speed Boost, just wait until its over.  

[MTeague]

10 hours ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

Alternatively, what about allowing a new Level Up Option at Trainers for Villain Epic Archetypes?

 

When you hit Level 24, you get a choice of the regular

"Train and Respec" 

or

"Claim 1 Free Respec and Level Up as Huntsman/Blood Widow"

 

And once you tap that Respec, THEN you have to rebuild your character.  

I mean, I understand that the Arachnos Archetypes were pretty much jury-rigged from the get-go, so this might not be possible . . . but if it is; wouldn't that be preferable? 

I have no idea if that's technically feasible, but I have zero design concerns against this.

This would not force characters to be split apart or set a precdent for alterate builds being alternate AT's.

[Redlynne]

I actually like the Level 24 split implementation the way it is ... because we can use alternate builds for the alternate path on the same character (Bane+Crab specs on the same character, for example).

[plainguy]

Funny I wish they had the Veat Option for all AT

 

[RCU7115]

I actually love the lvl 24 respec. It allows someone who hasn't played the AT to switch out powers they didn't like or move slots around. It only takes 5 minutes at most to do.i find

Myself making more mistakes by trying to  train a toon when teamed up doing missions, TF's, etc.