Weekly Discussion 59: Veteran Level Rewards

[ImpousVileTerror]

Veteran Levels unlocking higher difficulty isn't actually a half-bad idea . . . 

There's precedent for it in game design in general.  Think of how many games there are where you have to complete the game on Hard Mode before Extra Hard Mode is unlocked, and then Impossible after that.  That could be an interesting twist, and I wouldn't object to it!   Nice thoughts, @zenijos10

[Lines]

I'm certainly in the 'more challenge' camp, but grinding the same content doesn't really qualify to me. It's very easy to build incarnates now, but I appreciate being able to do things however I like. I feel instead like the ambient world needs (options for) a few features to deal with our incarnated characters, but that's a different conversation.

 

I like veteran rewards as they are, I think. My main is vet level 69 (and I've turned off xp. No reason), and it's been nice to have something to level up towards. As BZB says, maybe there ought to be something for people 100+? I dunno what, though - you don't want to cram your inventory with redundant crap, nor do you want features that exclude lower vet-level players.

[Frostbiter]

Do enemies in the game even go past level 54? Would it be possible to make them go to 58?

[Yoru-hime]

I'm not sure I'd change anything.

 

The rewards are nice, but not game-breaking. They give players who don't care for iTrials enough Emps to get what they need without mindlessly grinding DA arcs. Not as swiftly or easily, but it'll eventually get you there. You can play whatever content you want and still make progress. I definitely like the way that they're front-loaded rather than escalating. There's no massive carrot trying to encourage you to go further than you're naturally inclined to play a character.

 

I don't think I'd add anything, either. If you've dinged Level 50 100 times and still want to keep going, just playing the character is clearly already plenty rewarding.

[Crater Kate]

3 hours ago, Nemu said:

When you hit vet level 9999 you get the null the gull temp power. You know, the one that makes you omnipotent.

But... @Veracor's already omnipotent!

[Hedgefund]

46 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

Do enemies in the game even go past level 54? Would it be possible to make them go to 58?

They exists as 57s (54 +3 incarnate levels).  For a real challenge do the very last DA arc at +4 with AVs and the Avatar of Mot (name?) will be functionally 57.

 

As for the question - I don't think these rewards have to make anyone more powerful.  I remember some of them being QOL and I was happy to have them.  

 

One reward I can think of that I would LOVE that wouldn't break the game (more) would be the Steel Canyon ATT power.  

[ImpousVileTerror]

I mean, another difficulty option could be Inverse Level Shifts.  Rather than being +3, so you're fighting at level 53, have the game smack you with up to -3 Shifts, so you're still a Level 50 with all your Level 50 Incarnate stuff, but the con system treats you as 47.  Thus the enemies can go up, relative to your Combat Level, to +7.

[Six-Six]

I used to play this came called Torchlight and they had a mechanic for higher level content that didn't involve new content. Once you reach the end of the game (level 50) you have a choice to start from level 1 (story-wise), while keeping all of your earned/unlocked powers. So effectively, you'll be 50, the mobs in turn would be 50+1 (CoH's mechanic gives you a choice to make it 50+4, with a x8 mob spawn). As you progress through the levels, you stay 50, but mobs progress normally... so by the time your reach Talos, you'll still be 50 with all your bells and whistles, but your enemies will be at 80, and in PI, they'll be level 100 -- twice your level and exponentially stronger/more durable. Let's see how OP they feel then.

I have no idea how easy or hard this would be to code, but I think it solves two things: giving people the harder content for vet levels, and giving the people who rushed to 50 to experience low-level content of Atlas, KR, Mercy, etc. (which is good content)... and maybe it would encourage them to run it as new powerless toons.

[Sakura Tenshi]

my recent suggestion was that for post 99 rewards, maybe we could have a randomized reward table of things like windfall, experienced charges, defense/offense/survival amplifier temp powers, and so on sent right to your email. Ideally what this would mean is that you'd be gathering these things on say a farmer or just a high enough level character to forward it to a new alt to give their start an extra edge.

[Troo]

No changes need to the existing reward table. Adding some useful rewards that are non transferable might be worth a look.

 

[QuiJon]

I would generally like to see a revamp to the over all end game not just vet leveling. First off i say drop the "every 3 levels" aspect of EMs after 24 and make it so that you earn some each level. So like level 25+ you earn 5 each level and level 51+ you earn 4, and then 78+3. Then at Vet level 100 just go to earning 1 per level period, never ending. Yes it works out to be a few more merits over time but still makes it worthwhile. 

 

Then i say change the incarnate system a bit. Unlock all EMs, AMs, salvage, threads, shards, etc to only being account locked not character locked. This opens up the door to allowing me choice of what character i want to play without having to do so simply because i need salvage or whatever for a specific toon. I can earn recipes and salvage and money on other toons now and use them for a different toon i dont see the difference with incarnates. 

 

Finish the incarnate system and tie the last powers to Vet levels. So where currently we get 6 powers that just chain together to unlock in turn when you hit level 50, make the last 4 vet level locked. So maybe one opens at 30, one at 40, then 60 then 80. It sets goals to make you want to play that character to reach but since we all know even currently we can play just about any content with what we have it doesnt change the base game as it stands now, just gives completionists goals to shoot for. 

 

Add some end level content. And by that i mean challenge the players that have gotten t4s complete. TFs or Trials, maybe a zone that actually presents a challenge with a couple new mission arcs and a nice zone event. I know none of this is new, or original and doesnt have alot to do with vet levels, i guess the issue to me is not the vet levels it is giving me something to do over all. I dont even think about vet levels really in normal game play, they just come as they come, where as pre-50 every level means something. 

 

 

[QuiJon]

2 hours ago, Six Six said:

I used to play this came called Torchlight and they had a mechanic for higher level content that didn't involve new content. Once you reach the end of the game (level 50) you have a choice to start from level 1 (story-wise), while keeping all of your earned/unlocked powers. So effectively, you'll be 50, the mobs in turn would be 50+1 (CoH's mechanic gives you a choice to make it 50+4, with a x8 mob spawn). As you progress through the levels, you stay 50, but mobs progress normally... so by the time your reach Talos, you'll still be 50 with all your bells and whistles, but your enemies will be at 80, and in PI, they'll be level 100 -- twice your level and exponentially stronger/more durable. Let's see how OP they feel then.

I have no idea how easy or hard this would be to code, but I think it solves two things: giving people the harder content for vet levels, and giving the people who rushed to 50 to experience low-level content of Atlas, KR, Mercy, etc. (which is good content)... and maybe it would encourage them to run it as new powerless toons.

This would be an interesting idea to look into. Maybe not scaling to level 100 or anything but have a mode where a level 50 T4 can go back and go to a zone and take contacts and radio or paper missions that give you instance missions where when you enter into them you keep all your powers and junk but are scaled down to like whatever the natural level range of the mission would be. And your powers scale down as well. So kind of like and exempt but with no power choice losses. Then make the enemies say naturally +2s and the difficulty slider and such can take it up to +4 above that. So essentially you could be fighting +6s if you wanted to using all the old missions and arcs already in the game.

[QuiJon]

5 hours ago, chi1701 said:

Think making the game harder would only benefit those classes and builds that easy to solo level up. This would to a point force players to instead of having a variety of different power pools, youl be locked into leveling x class with x abilities just to either compete or stay alive. It could also lead to lfg group literally turning into a WoW lookalike, eg looking for melee dps, scrappers and brutes only or blasters for ranged.

Or it could at minimum take us back to the old days. Remember those? Like when you didnt just take the first 7 people that replied to a request for a TF because who cares any group can steam roll it anyway. I remember waiting to try and find a tanker or we had the damage but needed healing or buffing and debuffing or we wouldnt put a scratch on the Honouree or Romulus. Where blasters had to sit back and let a tank get agro because they were not soft capped for defense and couldnt survive just running into the middle of a mob and setting off nova or inferno. 

 

The point being our characters have gotten so powerful now that having a place to play them where some of that uber IO and incarnate goodness gets sopped up in a level differenct or more capable enemies might not be a bad thing if it is a choice to take part in it.

[Xanatos]

7 hours ago, Apparition said:

This is just pie in the sky wishful thinking, but I would like to see Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits removed from veteran levels.  It makes Incarnate abilities too easy to come by and leads to many saying that the game “is too easy.”

 

5 hours ago, Apparition said:

I would like that and would increase my monthly donation to compensate for the additional server, but I doubt that it would ever happen.  If it ever would though, I would also like to see the 1.5x and 2.0x XP temp powers removed, as they are another source of the game being seen as “too easy.”

 

Neither of these suggestions would make the game harder.

 

They'd just make everything take longer.

 

Terrible ideas.

 

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, Xanatos said:

 

 

Neither of these suggestions would make the game harder.

 

They'd just make everything take longer.

 

Terrible ideas.

 

 

3 hours ago, Xanatos said:

 

 

Neither of these suggestions would make the game harder.

 

They'd just make everything take longer.

 

Terrible ideas.

 

Agreed. One of the absolute WORST things that the Cryptic team added to this game was the “Raid for Reward” system. After more times than I can count participating in those trials, I got to where I didn’t even bother anymore and just waited for more Dark Astoria content post-50. 
 

The ability to bypass the raiding is actually one of the many perks of Homecoming, and I ( and I am certain that people like me are in the majority) DO NOT want to deal with the gated Incarnate content that was live.

 

 

I know that Praetoria was just an attempt to grab new players with entry-level content, but just think of how enjoyable Incarnate play would be now if the Cryptic management would have had to foresight to make ALL of that content into Incarnate content.

[Myrmidon]

Sorry for going off topic, but when it comes to Incarnate Content, I had to say it.

 

 

Concerning Vet levels, once they stop giving benefits at 99, they really serve no purpose. I am certain that many of us played our main 50s for years with the only reward being that we still enjoyed them. If there is something after that instead of double Influence, maybe a dozen Winter/ATO packs every 100 levels along with a badge every 25 levels ( the actual level range is up to you)?   I’m sure that some people wouldn’t mind that.

[Myrmidon]

“Even if it's just being able to pick from the 'costumes' that are in the Halloween drops, it will be huge.” - srmallory

 

 

Ok, this poster and anyone else in this thread that suggested making those permanent costume powers an option for post-Vet Level 99 deserves the gold name and everything that comes with it (The quote is from another thread, but could work here).

 

These costume powers would be a PERFECT reward for further Vet levels!

Edited July 14, 2020 by Myrmidon

[0th Power]

8 hours ago, Frostbiter said:

Do enemies in the game even go past level 54? Would it be possible to make them go to 58?

54 is the max, but for +5 I bet they could use +4 and everyone on the team is -1

[0th Power]

7 hours ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

I mean, another difficulty option could be Inverse Level Shifts.  Rather than being +3, so you're fighting at level 53, have the game smack you with up to -3 Shifts, so you're still a Level 50 with all your Level 50 Incarnate stuff, but the con system treats you as 47.  Thus the enemies can go up, relative to your Combat Level, to +7.

Beat me to it

[Chirikiti]

Retroactively give me rewards! (Vet level 1790)

 

I would argue that vet levels do serve a small purpose. They are a decent indicator of one's expertise with said AT/Powers set in relation to the content. So they have some cachet. (and I like the ding-dings! =P)

 

No need for additional rewards. This game is awash in rewards already

[Xanatos]

What about having Ouroboros mendor costume pieces unlock at level 100?

 

The "story" reason being that you got so powerful your future self came back to visit.

 

I know unlockable costume pieces are a touchy subject. But given that they weren't available on live, returning players shouldn't feel anything has been taken away from them.

[PeregrineFalcon]

My main is a tanker on Torchbearer, who was previously my main on Freedom, who is 50+1. I have a couple of LoTg's, a Miracle +End, Numina's +End/+Heal, and a couple other special IO's on this character. I have a couple of set IO's frankenslotted, but no set bonuses.

 

I have another 46 alts on the rest of the servers. None of which are level 50. I don't farm. I have no issues with people who do, it just isn't fun for me. I've also never done an incarnate trial. I'd like to try it some day, but I doubt anyone would want to carry someone like me who doesn't have any idea how they work.

 

I don't know if I'm the "target demographic" for the devs or if those of you who have a dozen "soft-capped blasters" are. Either way you now know my perspective.

 

I think the vet levels are great as they are. I don't think anything needs to be added to or removed from them.

 

If the devs added the option to set the difficulty above +4 for level 50s (or for anyone) and/or the ability to raise it above 8 players, I think that'd be fine. Let BillZBubba solo missions set on +8/14 players if that makes him happy. I'd never do it, but I think that more options are better. I'll stick with my +1/+2 levels and/or +1/2 players.

[nihilii]

For anyone who wants +7/+8 mobs, I recommend this:

- remove your Alpha slot entirely

- start an Apex or Tin Mage task force, solo

 

Once you enter a mission, you will be now levelshifted to 46 due to lacking an alpha, and fighting level 54s

 

Go fight the first group with your uberest of uber builds. See how long it takes you.

Then please do me a favor, do YOURSELF a favor more than me: don't just come back here and report you love the challenge. Keep going!

 

Fight, say, the first 3 groups in the Apex TF. Or clear the outdoor part in the Tin Mage TF.

 

Then, do get in the Sewers and fight the Rikti Pylons. Or enter the warehouse and trade punches with Director 11.

I can't speak for you. But for me, trying this was my vaccine shot against extreme +con suggestions.

"But what about teams? Maybe it'd be fine for teams."

 

Remember -RES is decimated by the purple patch. So you're not going to look at the x3, x4, x5 multiplier you might expect even against +4s (functionally +3s due to Alpha).

 

Most likely, you are looking at best at a x2 from solo performance (picture an average of ~250% damage buffing solo, then push it to for example the 500% damage cap through damage buffs, that's x2).

 

Extreme purple patch isn't much fun no matter how you slice it, IMHO.

[DSorrow]

I'm all for more challenge options, but anything that arbitrarily and forcibly extends a grind that in itself isn't challenging doesn't make the game harder. Leveling up to 50 isn't hard because you don't need any special skills to accomplish it, so doubling or tripling or halving the time it takes to do it doesn't change the difficulty or challenge. That is, unless we are talking about the challenge of fitting game sessions into your calendar to get to 50/unlock incarnates/[insert goal] in reasonable real time.

 

With that out of the way, I think the veteran rewards are in a good place. For the periods in my life when I'm extremely busy with stuff and can barely get an hour of gaming a week, it's a blessing when I can just run whatever content I want and still progress my incarnate abilities. If I have more time, I can choose to do iTrials to get there slightly faster, which is also great. We're still far away from instant 50s and instant incarnate unlocks anyway.

 

The thing is, one of my favorite things about CoH is that a play session is never worthless from a progress point of view. Because all IOs are tradeable every bit of influence is a direct step towards a piece of a build. Thanks to vet levels, every bit of XP is a step towards an incarnate ability. I absolutely love not being gated from a category of rewards because I can't commit to a raid/any other specific content category or want to do something else instead.

Edited July 14, 2020 by DSorrow

[Marine X]

I think at Veteran Level 100 you should suddenly revert to level 1 and have all your powers disappear except brawl and your Incarnate abilities. Then you have to slowly re-earn them 1 at a time only by hunting down Contaiminated in Atlas Park or defeating Jack in Irons Solo, Then stealing and selling his Loincloth at Wentworth's for Leveling tokens.