Old school playing is getting rare

[Lines]

2 hours ago, FoulVileTerror said:

Well said, @Lines.

Granted, while not the original post in this thread, I -do- think some other posters have definitely tread the line on being unkind with their words.

But it's also relatively easy to see how the topic touches some nerves, considering how deeply personal one's connection with the game can be.

For sure. I try to assume the best in people, especially online, but sniping still happens. I see it around this topic in game too now and then.

 

But overwhelmingly, I think the community does mostly share a live-and-let-live sentiment, which is evident in this thread. In game, people will rally to defend people's playstyle, and it feels good to see. It just doesn't look that way sometimes.

 

 

Edit: going back through this thread, there were literally only two posts that I could construe as being anti-PL. And even then, neither were presented as arguments.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Lines

[arcane]

26 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

However, I cannot agree that there was never an "old school" way to play...because there was. It was the way the vast majority of players used to play in those days.
 

I will submit that the playstyle referred to as “old school” was definitely more prevalent than it is now. I am not sure it was as dramatically different as some people are implying though.
 

I think it was extremely common for people to level up 50 #1 the “natural” way and then to take every alt thereafter immediately to Peregrine Island for some portal mission sitting. The trek to PI at level 1 was a little more risky than the trek to Atlas AE, and I think there’s been a slight uptick post-AE in the percentage of players that choose this playstyle. But I don’t think we agree on how dramatic the change has been.

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 8/30/2020 at 12:48 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

I've started doing both now that all my old mains are back to where they should be. Sometimes I street sweep to 4, then run a witch farm to 12 then go run paper missions. Sometimes I PL to 50. Sometimes I'll run regular content just for the hell of it and do a PL bump in the middle of it.

 

That's the beauty of this game. Do what you want. Just don't hurt anyone else in the process.

Agreed, and I'm a big fan of your sig as well!

 

The rest of this is just me typing some thoughts in general, not aimed at Bill or anyone else.

 

"Don't hurt anyone else in the process."  Does PLing hurt anyone else?  

 

- Well, it probably increases the demand for goods in the AH, which I'm for.  Not hurting anyone.

- It probably increases the amount of inf in the system, which I'm against.  Not CLEARLY hurting anyone.

- It probably makes it harder to find people who want to do exactly what I want to do exactly when I want to do it because there are more choices.  Not hurting anyone and if you feel this is hurting you, you need to take a hard look at why you are so special.

- It probably makes people who play in flashback think the game is easier than it really is.  Doing a mission arc at lvl 30 regular v an Ouro arc means the Ouro arc is being done with your lvl 32 and lvl 35 power unlocks, as well as all the slots.  Not hurting anyone, but subsequently lobbying to make the game easier because it's not as easy the first time through is certainly hurting others.

- It "increases the number of people who don't know how to play their characters the way I want them to play their characters."  I think if you have to knowledge to get a PL to 50 and can't contribute to a team, the problem is not that you are 50 and didn't deserve it, but rather that you may just not be a very good player, or just not a very good player as I pigeonholed you to be.

 

Bart, Cart, Dart, Eart, nope, don't see a problem.

 

 

[CFIndustries]

17 hours ago, cranebump said:

Speaking of: I don’t think I’ve seen any instances of a team running in a supergroup matching uni, or even color scheme. I’m sure someone’s done it. I just haven’t seen it. It’d be kinda cool to don the team togs.

On Live I had a lively group of friends (oddballs all of them) and we had two themed SG's and costumes, think it was on Virtue:

 

"Evil Girl Scouts" (redside)

A group all dressed in matching pink-n-purple, all females, all small and girly, shoulder cats, and all manner of silly cuteness. I generally play animal alts, so I played a little pink-n-purple cat that was the mascot that was run through the Gene Splicer 2000 (how else would you get a cat in those colors!?!). Second costume was the cat turned into a big drooling monster (never let the girls at the GS2000 without supervision). All had Girl Scout cookie names or otherwise thematic names. The only "adult" was  a "huge" body type in the same girly costume but looked like a guy…named "Den Mom" who RP'd pretending to reign-in the supervillain kids.

 

And we'd stand around sometimes and accost, badger, threaten to kill, bully, and all sort of related RP (in Local) to sell cookies...near the ferries.

 

"Flock of Seaguls" (blueside)

We all had white-n-grey costumes, birds, and white-n-grey power colors. And real corny seagull pun names. Steven Seagull, Gene Seagul (two thumbs up!), you get the idea. Instant laughs when enough of us gathered in one place and started shouting "MINE!" in local.

 

 

I haven't developed a set of friends like this on HC (yet); that takes time. But those days *were* a blast and Virtue was always "RP light"-friendly for this sort of thing.

[jubakumbi]

34 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

... However, I cannot agree that there was never an "old school" way to play...because there was. It was the way the vast majority of players used to play in those days. Also, welcome back!  🙂

Just because there were more people playing the way you want to play, from your POV, does not make it the 'vast majority'.

I can say the same thing about how I played, solo, with just RL friends, the other players had no impact on us and I knew lots of other groups like that, that did not bother to play to roles, because COH broke that mold.

From Day 4 when I started.

IMO, the Extroverts who love the press of people and the dependence on Roles in groups are not automatically a majority of players and never have been, they are simply the loudest because they were trained by other games like EQ and they expect(ed) all games to be like that and have no problem propagating the mechanics they are used to using.

It's then just human nature to assume your 'community' is the 'majority', it's just how our brains work.

Does not mean it's true or accurate, does not mean the intent is nefarious in talking about either, there are no real statistics to back up any of the arguments, they are all subjective.

 

Presenting it in the way I see over and over again, this idea that strict Role based play that requires other people is the 'old school' way, implies, even if involuntarily so, that other playstyles are 'lesser'.

It just does.

It is built into the entire idea that there 'should' or 'should not' be things that 'force' it, be they 'code or community'.

 

The problem IME is that attacking that idea, the idea that there have to be Roles, that there are better/worse ways to play, too many people take as a personal affront.

Attacking the idea is not attacking the person.

I hated Role based play in EQ, I played Asheron's Call instead, for example. One of my life long friends prefers EQ. No biggy.

I don't play games now that force me to group, like the MSQ of FFXIV.

 

I am one of the 'old men' in gaming terms, I am 52. 

I refuse to get painted into a corner over that, I will not just get lost in a sea of nostalgia of 'the good old days' when no such thing exists, to stop growing is to start dying.

 

 

(Not really back, this is simply a topic about which I am paasionate and I noticed, I lurk, I am interested in this 'community' from many angles.)

[FoulVileTerror]

@CFIndustries . . . you and @Muppy need to talk.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Just because there were more people playing the way you want to play, from your POV, does not make it the 'vast majority'.

Back before the snap, I soloed 95% of my game play. I was attacked regularly by the folks that thought teaming was the only way to play this MMO. I was attacked heavily by the team-only crowd when I mentioned how ridiculous Khels were at launch with their massive -damres while solo BS. I was attacked rabidly when I brought up how unfair the incarnate progression was for soloists when it was introduced.

 

And now, when I'm PLing in a way I never did before the snap, I find myself on the side of those being attacked for enjoying the game a different way... again.

 

It's fucking stupid. Is everyone in this thread doing that? No. Absolutely not. There are some trying to simply state that they'd like to play the old way, back when there were no IOs, back when the game was harder. I get it. I get it fully.

 

But that game doesn't exist anymore. You can certainly find like-minded individuals and you can all choose to run with nothing but SOs and no incarnates and have the tank herd and the defender heal and the blaster dish out DPS.

 

And you can do so without whining on the forums when you can't find enough like-minded individuals and you can do it without calls for even more nerfs to AE rewards and you can do it without the snide, sideways insults that those of us who now PL don't know how to play the game.

[FoulVileTerror]

I'd contend that that game -does- still exist, though, @Bill Z Bubba.

Homecoming just isn't it.  I can't remember the name of the server at this moment, though.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, FoulVileTerror said:

I'd contend that that game -does- still exist, though, @Bill Z Bubba.

Homecoming just isn't it.  I can't remember the name of the server at this moment, though.

It doesn't exist with the game that these forums are tied to.

 

Everyone is absolutely welcome to go wherever they'd be happier.

[CFIndustries]

@jubakumbi, love your SIG. I always remember the version Lisa says to Bart on the Simpsons (likely paraphrased or slightly butchered in my memory):

 

"How non-conformist, in a conformist sort of way..."

 

I find this topic interesting because yeah, HC seems to be (from my perspective) rich (more-influence-than-God), IO-decked-out, AH-playing, PL'ing/farming, min/max'ers. And since I don't fall into ANY of those, it does sometimes feel like I'm on my own or somehow not effective enough for "teaming with the gods."

 

HOWEVER, I don't expect anything to change due to my lament…was like that when I arrived, that's what the culture is. I was happy enough to play, so I play over here in my little "oldschool" corner and enjoy myself while gods walk by. Thankfully I got some starter cash at random for a cool costume, kept my old Hero Builder files (made by someone else; I'm inept at it), and re-created a couple of my IO'd incarnates. That will keep my cash flow up for playing all the alts that will never walk with the gods (will never see an IO set or incarnate content), but will still be fun to me.

 

Not sure why I should try to force my "culture" on the obviously prevailing one; or why others keep raging against the machine. I already know I wouldn't change any minds here. *shrug*

 

As others have hinted: you enjoy your style, I enjoy mine. We might not agree, but we don't have to in order to have fun.

Edited September 3, 2020 by CFIndustries

[Ironblade]

23 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Back before the snap, I soloed 95% of my game play. I was attacked regularly by the folks that thought teaming was the only way to play this MMO.

Back on live, someone sent me a tell asking me if I wanted to join a Citadel TF.

I replied, "No thanks."

They replied that, since I was in an MMO, it was my duty to team with people.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Ironblade said:

Back on live, someone sent me a tell asking me if I wanted to join a Citadel TF.

I replied, "No thanks."

They replied that, since I was in an MMO, it was my duty to team with people.

LOL. Yea, I remember those folks. As I always replied, Multiplayer means you CAN team, not that you HAVE to.

[FoulVileTerror]

"Remember?"

 . . . I don't get anywhere near as many blind invites these day as I did back on Legacy, but I still occasionally get messages from people confused when I decline their unsolicited invite to join a +4/x8 Task Force.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And you can do so without whining on the forums when you can't find enough like-minded individuals and you can do it without calls for even more nerfs to AE rewards and you can do it without the snide, sideways insults that those of us who now PL don't know how to play the game.

^ Truth.  Were people who complain about the evils of PLing on the forums to spend half that time using available tools to find like minded players, they would already be playing together and having fun.

[MTeague]

42 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

Back on live, someone sent me a tell asking me if I wanted to join a Citadel TF.

I replied, "No thanks."

They replied that, since I was in an MMO, it was my duty to team with people.

 

I spent 4 years in EverQuest getting team invites the moment I logged on my Enchanter, and nagged to switch if I loaded up an alt instead.

I spent 8 years in WoW main tanking for a guild and scheduling my gaming time (and even my real life!) around the needs of the guild.

Never again. 

Never.

 

I still miss both guilds / both crowds.  And I do still get nostalgic for both games. 

 

But, F**k That Noise.  

I'd likely give any such tell both barrels and /gignore them on the spot. 

[Troo]

4 hours ago, Saikochoro said:

Myself, and it appears some others, have lost patience with it.

Take offense if you like. It may be wise to keep some perspective and remember our participation is voluntary.

 

Remember this person:

Spoiler

On 5/17/2019 at 11:16 AM, Saikochoro said:

Hi All!

 

So glad this game is back. I’m currently jumping between several alts sub level 20. However, I’m starting to take one or two past 20 and want to get one to level cap to start earning more inf.

 

However to get there I’m going to need some enhancements. I don’t particularly want to waste inf on DOs. I also was thinking that outfitting myself in SOs every time they become ineffective is also somewhat of a waste.

 

So my next thought of course was IOs.  I had to leave this game early on due to leaving the country and not having internet for years. So I never really got into IOs. From what I understand, they don’t lose effectiveness as you level. I also gather that higher level IOs have better effect than SOs. However, even the common IOs (without set bonuses) are pretty pricey as someone starting out.  In the long run though it seems like it would be cheaper than going through several sets of DOs and SOs.

 

I think I’m going to just craft some low-mid level common IOs. It looks like level 25 IOs are about equivalent to SOs. However, their is a pretty big price jump starting at level 20. It looks like level 15 IOs give a decent stat performance, but is much cheaper.

 

So now my questions:

 

Do you think that crafting a full set of level 15 IO will get me through to level 50 just fine? I’m sure I can start earning more inf then and get better enhancements then.

 

Or should I spend more inf and try to craft a set of level 25 IOs?  Or is there a good (cheapish) set IO that would work fine? Or should I just go the traditional route with DOs and SOs?

 

In my opinion that point in the game shown above is where more effort should be focused, less so mega marketers, farmers, PLers, min-maxers, etc.. they are doing just fine.

(full disclosure: I fit some of those descriptions)

{ mini rant alert }

However, the advice provided even to new folks often leans toward shortcuts and advanced play. This makes sense, folks sharing said advice are excited to help.

In this regard we are our own worst enemy.

A lot of knowledge in this game is tribal. One player passes it to another who then passes it on to another.

It's not one act that is the perpetrator. The reiterative nature distills the knowledge removing a lot of context and substance.

 

Example:

new person at a lower level asks about a powerset combo, which leads to the sharing of an uber incarnate Mids build.

why would a person want less than what's possible?

well shoot, how is the new player to afford such a masterpiece? how do I get incarnates? how do I get those IO sets and Archtypes sets?

once accomplished.. yay T4 50 and there really is no 'end game' left.

yet when asked by another new player how they got such a great character.. rise and repeat.. and this is how it goes.

 

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony"

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Troo
oops needed to add the spoiler text

[Dazl]

I was there when the game launched and yes it is a very different animal now. I enjoyed it and maintained my sub until it closed. The game did change over that time, but I personally wouldn't have any interest in playing the early versions of the game today. Lots of great gaming memories, but I don't have rose colored glasses for those days either.

 

I totally respect people who miss that and would like to have that experience again. It is kind of possible to do that. Create a SG called Old School or something, and use the guide below and roll back what your SG can use in the game based on the release version you want to play in. Certain things like the fitness pool can't be changed, but maybe you don't slot any of those powers.

 

 

[Skyhawke]

Lot of round and around here, not really going anywhere happy. Who wants some pie?

[EmmySky]

I think people should play what they enjoy.  I think if the OP had been more 'hey I like to play X way who wants to join me' and less APPEARING to bash other playstyles this would have been a very different thread.  I say APPEARING because I cannot know the OP intent, and many of us have seen this type of post before that is bashing.  I am not excusing taking that particular read of it, I think its a fault on both sides.  Very hard to read intent through text.

 

For myself...I never try to offend people, unless I do intend to offend, so if you are ever offended by what I type, please know I don't intend it, unless I do intend it.  For you folks confused by that, it is very obvious when I try to offend because I usually fail drastically and get laughed at.

 

Okay now everybody get out there and punch some faces in whatever way makes you the absolute happiest you can be in this handbasket we call the world.  Please keep your arms and legs inside the ride at all time.  When we arrive at our destination you will notice an increase of temperature and a little red guy with horns and a tail.  Yes, he is a MM 😝

[RageusQuitus2]

6 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

absolutely love the difficulty of fighting the roaming Hercules Titans (I was a bit of a sucker for this ever since Issue 1 when they added the combining part and Kronos as well). 

Now there are two of us.  Doubled the pvp zone pvers numbers in less than 24 hours.  We might get a full team by this weekend!!!!  

 

Im also a big fan of warburg kronos hunting.  Im pretty sure i took my main brute droid rage from near 1-50 in pvp zones.

[Saikochoro]

38 minutes ago, Troo said:

Take offense if you like. It may be wise to keep some perspective and remember our participation is voluntary.

 

Remember this person:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

In my opinion that point in the game shown above is where more effort should be focused, less so mega marketers, farmers, PLers, min-maxers, etc.. they are doing just fine.

(full disclosure: I fit some of those descriptions)

{ mini rant alert }

However, the advice provided even to new folks often leans toward shortcuts and advanced play. This makes sense, folks sharing said advice are excited to help.

In this regard we are our own worst enemy.

A lot of knowledge in this game is tribal. One player passes it to another who then passes it on to another.

It's not one act that is the perpetrator. The reiterative nature distills the knowledge removing a lot of context and substance.

 

Example:

new person at a lower level asks about a powerset combo, which leads to the sharing an uber incarnate Mids build.

why would a person want less than what's possible?

well shoot, how is the new player to afford such a masterpiece? how do I get incarnates? how do I get those IO sets and Archtypes sets?

once accomplished.. yay T4 50 and there really is no 'end game' left.

yet when asked by another new player how they got such a great character.. rise and repeat.. and this is how it goes.

 

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony"

 

Providing advice and asking for advice is a completely separate issue to looking down on one way of playing a game versus another.  I have never expressed any problem with people asking for and giving advice. I have been on both sides of that the entire time I have played this game both on live and on homecoming. 

 

I also don’t have a problem with wanting to give new players more beginner advice, such as focusing on general slotting and play style. There is nothing wrong with that at all. 
 

My views haven’t changed since I posted asking for advice in the past. I still do that. The thing I don’t have patience for, and really never had, is when people try to put one way of playing a game above another way by complaining about how others play the game. DFB was a big discussion point at the same time as when I was asking for advice on common IOs and I had a problem with people claiming those who were enjoying DFB weren’t playing the game right. Not because they play differently than me, but because they feel the need to proclaim that other ways of enjoying the game aren’t correct. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Saikochoro

[RageusQuitus2]

6 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

I think if the OP had been more 'hey I like to play X way who wants to join me' and less APPEARING to bash other playstyles this would have been a very different thread

We shall see if your theory is true because thats been my tactic to sucker a bunch of newbs into pvp zones then BAM six slotted brawl to dominance (screen shots and forum smack to follow).

 

Wait sorry i didnt mean to type my evil plans outloud.  Foiled again.

 

Seriously though with all the talk of doing same content over and over, boredom, power leveling.  Id really like to get some zone exploration going.  My favorite experiences were in pvp zones wether it was pve, pvp or a mix (huge groups hero and vill players fighting over hot spots).

[ForeverLaxx]

Honestly, I feel like while the original post (and perhaps the poster themselves) is unnecessarily demanding and locked in their viewpoint, the persecution complex of some people is getting tiresome. People that don't like farming or PLing, stating as such, but telling you to enjoy it if you want are not doing so to be "passive-aggressive" towards your enjoyment. More than likely, they literally don't care what you're doing and are telling you this because they want to make clear that your anger for being told "you're doing it wrong" is mostly in your head or only comes from a small fraction of people in the game. Whenever the "you're doing it wrong" narrative is brought out, the way it's told, you'd think there are people lining up around the block to remind this person every time they log in that they're "not playing right" or something.

 

For the record, I solo 99% of the time. I've been here over a year and still haven't cracked level 40. I played as early as Issue 1 back on live and was a beta tester for CoV. I personally don't enjoy being PL'd because I'm not afforded the opportunity to "bond" to a character's concept if I skip everything. I'm not going to tell you that you can't PL, or that no one finds PLing/farming fun, or that my way of playing is the only "true way to experience the game" or any other such nonsense. Once you stop seeing opinions that don't match yours as insults, you're going to enjoy more of your time. In a way, you're almost the same kind of person that tells everyone else that they're "playing wrong", but in reverse. Instead of telling others how to play, you're angrily defending your playstyle by seeing attacks that don't exist and it's just as off-putting as anything else.

[MTeague]

35 minutes ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

We shall see if your theory is true because thats been my tactic to sucker a bunch of newbs into pvp zones then BAM six slotted brawl to dominance (screen shots and forum smack to follow).

 

Wait sorry i didnt mean to type my evil plans outloud.  Foiled again.

 

Seriously though with all the talk of doing same content over and over, boredom, power leveling.  Id really like to get some zone exploration going.  My favorite experiences were in pvp zones wether it was pve, pvp or a mix (huge groups hero and vill players fighting over hot spots).

I've been *extremely* skittish of PvP ever since Diablo 2 Hardcore, where people would ninja-hostile on you in attempt to murder your one-life-only character. Chargadins, Hydra-Sorcy's, Javazons, all the rest.  It was generally done in a very trolling in-your-face manner. "Hahahaa, I killed your lvl 71 character for good, and they're dead FOREVER, now I'll dance around your dead body while you stare at the screen and rage".

 

That kind of first impression of PvP in general kind of sticks with you. 

And I'll probably always view many aspects of PvP through that lens.

 

That said, I have made the occasional foray into CoH pvp zones for certain badges. 

I accept that I can be ganked at any moment.  I would not report anyone. I would not even request to be left alone.

I zoned in, I put the "you are fair game" target on my forehead.  That's on me. 

But I don't dally in PvP zones either.  I get the badge I want, or a new Shivan, and i GTFO.

If I'm repeatedly ganked, I'll flee the zone again at try for the badge again at 3:30 am some random night when I'm hit with a bout of insomnia / brain-won't-shut-up syndome.

 

Exploration in general I very much enjoy though.

I don't use Reveal, I prefer to personally explore all the nooks and crannies of a map, and stumble across misc plaques and explore badges by chance.

 

EDIT:  I accept that PvP can be done as a friendly competition. And I'm glad people can enjoy it on that level.  I'm always going to remember my dead lvl 71 Paladin.

Edited September 3, 2020 by MTeague

[RageusQuitus2]

17 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I've been *extremely* skittish of PvP ever since Diablo 2 Hardcore,

That wasnt pvp lol it was pure douchebaggery (no offense intended).  That was lets do a loot run.  Then bam portal leads to a shit storm and end of character forever.  Heartbreaking to die that way.  Coh had its fair share of tool bags but you lost nothing.

 

Imho now is best time to try out pvp content cause so few pvpers left.  If you are really that concerned, excel has had literally 1 person in sirens or bloody when i went after shivans or hot spots.  Can you guess who the player was?  

Edited September 3, 2020 by RageusQuitus2