Should Phantom Army last longer?

[Solarverse]

One thing that slightly bothers me about Phantom Army, is that it reminds me of the Elec Pet on a Blaster...you know, the click and point pet that doesn't last long, moves too slowly and requires you to summon it way too often to be much use for me personally in today's game? Yeah, that pet. Phantom Army comes pretty close to giving me that same feeling. You summon them, but they are gone pretty fast and don't last very long. For me it is borderline if they are worth taking at all...although I do admit, I take them.

I am also on the other hand one of those people who hates the power creep that has taken place in this game. I find the game to be WAY too easy now and really miss the days when the game was actually a bit of a challenge. So when I ask for a buff, I do so in a way that I hope does not bring even more power creep to the game. So when I ask that Phantom Army last longer, I do so in asking that we also increase the recharge time, or slightly nerf their DPS...or something. I don't want to see anymore power creep in the game, but I would like the QoL change of them lasting long enough that they do not turn in to a constant click and point power. I would rather summon them and forget about them and know they will be there to help long enough for me to feel like they were helpful beyond a single mob.

So first question is simple and should garner simple responses: Should Phantom Army last longer?

Second question is not so simple: How should we implement changes to where if they are given more staying power, they are balanced in other areas to allow for this WITHOUT pissing people off who do not wish them to be nerfed in other areas to compensate? What changes could be made that people would be okay trading for more staying time?

Edited September 12, 2020 by Solarverse

[Alchemystic]

It's already fairly easy to get Phantom Army to recharge at such a rate that they can be permanent, even without using Time or Radiation for those recharge boosts.

 

of course, that means focusing your build on doing so, so it would leave other areas of the character less than optimal. Personally, I think that's a fair trade, if you want to make one power perform extremely well, there has to be sacrifices elsewhere. 

 

So personally, I think the duration of Phantom Army is fine, and extending it further will put more strength behind these already powerful builds.

[krj12]

Considering they can already be made almost permanent with enough recharge,  I don't see why extending their lifespan would be such a big deal.   The only difference would 

be reducing the annoyance of constantly re-summoning.   My Illusion/Storm troller could definitely use this.

[Ura Hero]

A couple of months ago I started to write a post on why Illusion sucks at low levels since at that time I was slogging through all the low level Ouroboros missions.  Phantom Army recharge is one of the biggest reasons why Illusion sucks at low levels.  

 

Until you get Phantom Army, you have a grand total of two possible attacks on an Illusionist (not counting P2W); assuming of course that you take both Blind and Spectral Wounds.  It is a super slow slog doing solo play until level 16.  Then it speeds up slightly, but only because of Phantom Army.  The super long recharge means that you go at a decent clip for 60 seconds, then slog for two minutes waiting on recharge.  Rinse, repeat.  It is a disconcerting method of play.

 

I had mulled over a bunch of different methods to try and help the situation, but ultimately came up without an ideal strategy.   

 

Ideas;

 

1. Buff Phantom Army recharge rate to make it more useful at lower levels.

2. Add some recharge speed to Deceive and/or Flash to boost overall recharge rate so Phantom Army cycles faster.

3. Get rid of the damage healing over time mechanic on Illusion.

4. Increase the follow speed of both Phantom Army and Phantasm.  Good grief they are as slow as molasses in January in Maine.

 

Not part of the ideas is to get an actual pet window ala Masterminds.  I could live without some of the abilities, but at least let us have a dismiss everything button.

 

Illusion could use some love.  It is a highly fun set to play once you get it slotted correctly (which costs a bundle).  The biggest downside is that you have to sacrifice a lot to get it playable by solely focusing on recharge.

[Greycat]

Have it scale.

 

See, I was going to say "eh, not really," but early on, yes, it's rough. They're not slotted for enough damage because you don't have slots. They're not slotted for recharge because you don't have slots. So have them last longer and/or recharge sooner when you get them, and have that gradually back off to the current time as you hit 50, when you should have the slots and set bonuses.

[Vanden]

Phantom Army is too potent a control power for something like this; with their taunt and threat level, they're extremely efficient at grabbing enemy aggro and can control up to 51 enemies at a time. It's true that soloing on Illusion is slow, but reducing the recharge on PA to help this would ripple out and have repercussions on the balance of the overall set.

[Hardship]

I think that PA is fine the way it is, I like that I can summon them to a spot where I want them to be to take alpha strikes or cause the cone mezzer attack to turn away from because I summon PA behind the group for the first attack. I usually want my PA in FRONT of me, and having them follow along behind me is annoying. If they had full MM controllability, I would be all for them being longer duration, but as it is, I only get a chance to place them when I summon them.

 

Phantom Army is very nearly an "I win" button anyway. They are indestructible, unmezzable, and have high threat to mobs. They should not be a summon and forget kind of power.

 

As for a pet window, Controllers (in fact all characters) do have a pet window:

 

 

Click "Pets" at the top of the team window and there it is. If the Pets option doesn't show up, then goto Options --> Windows tab, scroll down about 1/2 way to the "Pets" section and make sure it is enabled.

 

 

Creating a "Release Pets" macro is simple and will dismiss all pets.  I use the following:  /macro RP "release_pets"

That will create a nice RP button on your powers bar that will dismiss all pets when you click it.

 

 

[Solarverse]

I feel that many of you are missing the point of this thread as the majority are asking for a quicker recharge where as I am asking for more staying time.  I understand that we can close to perma them and honestly, them being perma is not even something I strive for. What I do strive for is that when I click on the ability, they last longer than 60 seconds.

Since I do not want to throw an imbalance to the game by doing this, I am offering a sacrifice of some kind in order to allow them more staying time. The sacrifice however is the tricky part, because that will be the part that almost nobody will agree to. I am not asking for faster recharge, I am asking for longer stay times while re-balancing the recharge or in some other way to compensate for more staying time.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Solarverse

[Alchemystic]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

I feel that many of you are missing the point of this thread as the majority are asking for a quicker recharge where as I am asking for more staying time.  I understand that we can close to perma them and honestly, them being perma is not even something I strive for. What I do strive for is that when I click on the ability, they last longer than 60 seconds.

 

The two are connected. Having them active longer means that you would need less recharge in order to keep them around permanently.

If the recharge was increased to compensate for the longer duration, the issue of it overperforming would be taken care of.

 

 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

how about making it an endurance heavy toggle? so its there when you need it.....at a cost.

[FoulVileTerror]

Hmm  . . . an interesting solution, @Saiyajinzoningen

So, what?  Make it a Toggle which has a short Cooldown, BUT applies a self-Debuff to the Player which lasts roughly as long as the desired Recharge Time.  For the first 60 seconds, the Phantom Army cost an amount of Endurance per tick which would balance out to roughly the same cost of summoning them.  But then after those 60 seconds are up, the Endurance cost continues to ramp up every 10 seconds, until . . . well, whatever we figure is a good balanace.  (Would have to disable Rest during this, or have Rest cancel that Phantom Army Toggle.)  Then the self-Debuff would eventually fade and the Phantom Army Toggle would revert to its original cost.

 

Probably a bit intensive for whoever needs to code it, and I'm not sure it would necessarily address the purported problem nor pass scrutiny for balance . . . but I do like the outside-the-box thinking of it!

[Omega-202]

They're meant to be a "control" power, taking the spot of an AoE stun in the Illusion set.  They're designed purpose is to be spawned into a mob to take the alpha and hold aggro without taking damage.  

 

They fill that design perfectly and I feel like anyone asking for a change to their duration or recharge isn't looking at it from the proper perspective.  They're not damage pets, although they do great damage.  They're a psuedo control.  

 

Honestly, they should be left exactly as is.  

[Yomo Kimyata]

For a lot of suggested buffs, I like to ask myself, has there been a structural macro shift in the mechanics of the game that have recently adversely affected this power?  If so, then let's look at it.  If not, I like to ask myself, has this always been a problem since the set was created and are we just coming around to it now after a decade and change?

 

I view this as a power creep issue, personally.  I understand that @Solarverseis looking for some sort of trade-off so that he/she/huge doesn't have to click the summon button so often in exchange for a weakening of the power, but it still is a power creep issue.  

 

I think the power is great as is, but I'm trying to think out the ramifications of, say, increasing the duration of the power to 120 seconds and increasing the recharge to 480, which should still keep perma-builds perma.  In that case, you lose the ability to place your immortal tanks exactly where you want them as quickly at the cost of not having to summon them as often.  I'd prefer the current layout over that.

 

6 hours ago, Hardship said:

 

Phantom Army is very nearly an "I win" button anyway. They are indestructible, unmezzable, and have high threat to mobs. They should not be a summon and forget kind of power.

 

I wanted to quote this because @Hardshipnailed it, in my opinion.

 

So to OP's original two questions: No and does not apply respectively.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

how about making it an endurance heavy toggle? so its there when you need it.....at a cost.

Now this is one hell of an idea.,..thank you for that +1

[Solarverse]

53 minutes ago, FoulVileTerror said:

Hmm  . . . an interesting solution, @Saiyajinzoningen

So, what?  Make it a Toggle which has a short Cooldown, BUT applies a self-Debuff to the Player which lasts roughly as long as the desired Recharge Time.  For the first 60 seconds, the Phantom Army cost an amount of Endurance per tick which would balance out to roughly the same cost of summoning them.  But then after those 60 seconds are up, the Endurance cost continues to ramp up every 10 seconds, until . . . well, whatever we figure is a good balanace.  (Would have to disable Rest during this, or have Rest cancel that Phantom Army Toggle.)  Then the self-Debuff would eventually fade and the Phantom Army Toggle would revert to its original cost.

 

Probably a bit intensive for whoever needs to code it, and I'm not sure it would necessarily address the purported problem nor pass scrutiny for balance . . . but I do like the outside-the-box thinking of it!

Yeah, when I read that I was like, "Heyyyy! Not a bad idea!"

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, FoulVileTerror said:

Hmm  . . . an interesting solution, @Saiyajinzoningen

So, what?  Make it a Toggle which has a short Cooldown, BUT applies a self-Debuff to the Player which lasts roughly as long as the desired Recharge Time.  For the first 60 seconds, the Phantom Army cost an amount of Endurance per tick which would balance out to roughly the same cost of summoning them.  But then after those 60 seconds are up, the Endurance cost continues to ramp up every 10 seconds, until . . . well, whatever we figure is a good balanace.  (Would have to disable Rest during this, or have Rest cancel that Phantom Army Toggle.)  Then the self-Debuff would eventually fade and the Phantom Army Toggle would revert to its original cost.

 

Probably a bit intensive for whoever needs to code it, and I'm not sure it would necessarily address the purported problem nor pass scrutiny for balance . . . but I do like the outside-the-box thinking of it!

Well, that's already in the game. Quantum Flight does that. (Did that? I actually have to look again.)

[Razor Cure]

12 hours ago, Ura Hero said:

why Illusion sucks at low levels

What? Why?

Low levels being say..20 and lower?

Every control set bar Ill and Grav struggle for any damage.

Every control set with an aoe hold/aoe stun have the same issue of said powers lacking slots, having poor acc, and long rech.

Ill has good single target damage, an invis to get about safely AND a confuse (that really lets you safely kill anything you come across, no matter how long it takes)

 

On top of all that, there is PA. Sure, long rech, but it is a foolproof aggro getter, even if its not doing much damage (due to lack of slots).

 

6 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

how about making it an endurance heavy toggle? so its there when you need it.....at a cost.

As someone with an ill storm, hell no.

 

[Dragotect]

Triple the duration but make it so recharge doesn't start until it wears off. Keep recharge the same. It'll never be permanent this way, but given illusion only having two damaging attack (both single target), no immobilize, and no sleep. I think triple duration would be fine since they can be permanent, or very close to it, now.

[Omega-202]

Just now, Dragotect said:

Triple the duration but make it so recharge doesn't start until it wears off. Keep recharge the same. It'll never be permanent this way, but given illusion only having two damaging attack (both single target), no immobilize, and no sleep. I think triple duration would be fine since they can be permanent, or very close to it, now.

No.  Why would you ask for a straight up nerf to the power?

[Dragotect]

13 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

No.  Why would you ask for a straight up nerf to the power?

Then just make it permanent, give the copies health, and get rid of the whole not lasting long enough at low levels issue. The set is very close to an MM except commands as it is.

 

Honestly, PA doesn't need a change. The lack of damage on illusion powers is the problem. Remove the heal from spectral wound and it'd probably be enough to fix most of it's solo mission slog pre Phantasm. I know why it has it, it does more damage than most other control starting powers, but unlike those it lacks a control aspect. Or make it a single target, damaging fear power so containment is applied by it.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Dragotect

[skoryy]

54 minutes ago, Dragotect said:

The lack of damage on illusion powers is the problem.

The lack of damage on controller powers is a problem.

[Omega-202]

56 minutes ago, Dragotect said:

Then just make it permanent, give the copies health, and get rid of the whole not lasting long enough at low levels issue. The set is very close to an MM except commands as it is.

 

Honestly, PA doesn't need a change. The lack of damage on illusion powers is the problem. Remove the heal from spectral wound and it'd probably be enough to fix most of it's solo mission slog pre Phantasm. I know why it has it, it does more damage than most other control starting powers, but unlike those it lacks a control aspect. Or make it a single target, damaging fear power so containment is applied by it.

Or, this whole thread is asking to fix something that doesn't need fixing.  Illusion is fine as is.  It may not do a ton of damage at lower levels, but its a Controller primary.  It really shouldn't do a lot at lower levels.  At endgame, its a powerhouse set.  Some of the fastest Pylon times out there are Ill/Storm.  The set is fine as is and I don't understand how any of you thibk there's anything that needs changing.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 9/12/2020 at 9:35 AM, Solarverse said:

One thing that slightly bothers me about Phantom Army, is that it reminds me of the Elec Pet on a Blaster...you know, the click and point pet that doesn't last long, moves too slowly and requires you to summon it way too often to be much use for me personally in today's game? Yeah, that pet. Phantom Army comes pretty close to giving me that same feeling. You summon them, but they are gone pretty fast and don't last very long. For me it is borderline if they are worth taking at all...although I do admit, I take them.

I am also on the other hand one of those people who hates the power creep that has taken place in this game. I find the game to be WAY too easy now and really miss the days when the game was actually a bit of a challenge. So when I ask for a buff, I do so in a way that I hope does not bring even more power creep to the game. So when I ask that Phantom Army last longer, I do so in asking that we also increase the recharge time, or slightly nerf their DPS...or something. I don't want to see anymore power creep in the game, but I would like the QoL change of them lasting long enough that they do not turn in to a constant click and point power. I would rather summon them and forget about them and know they will be there to help long enough for me to feel like they were helpful beyond a single mob.

So first question is simple and should garner simple responses: Should Phantom Army last longer?

Second question is not so simple: How should we implement changes to where if they are given more staying power, they are balanced in other areas to allow for this WITHOUT pissing people off who do not wish them to be nerfed in other areas to compensate? What changes could be made that people would be okay trading for more staying time?

Play a master mind then. You are basically asking to nerf the primary dps ability of Ill trollers in asking for its dmg reduced.

I dont see your suggestion as anything but a disingenuous attempt to get a set you have some issue with nerfed.

 

There is no need for them to last longer. You can make them perma, and the re-summon lets you put them in the front as needed every minute. This is actually a needed tactic as we cant direct them like an MM can.

 

Maybe what you should ask for is an ILL MM set. I think that would be awesome actually.

Edited September 15, 2020 by GM Aurarius
Unecessary personal attack

[arcane]

Guess it’d be fine if you increased the duration and recharge by the exact same proportions. A net buff though is a hard no from me.

 

Also, giving something an endurance cost is a pretty weak concession in the days of Ageless Core. Maybe if it cost as much as Telekinesis that would be ok.

[GM Aurarius]

Any discussion can get heated, please stay objective and on-topic.